- This is an opportunity to do something that no one in the state has done and wanted to do until now.

A statewide broadcast of eight North Carolinians, different backgrounds, different thoughts, different ideals, different dreams, different heartaches, talking about common ground and common issues.

And we are deeply grateful for you to take your time, make the investment of time, away from families, away from friends, away from children, to be here this weekend.

So thank you.

Thank you for wanting to listen, want to engage, and want to give the public something to think about even when they disagree.

But something to think about.

So from PBS North Carolina, we thank you.

I had asked everyone to bring a photograph or an artifact, and I'd like to begin with that as we get to know each other a little better, of what memory you have with you, why it matters, why you want to share that particular memory with folks.

So Catherine, let's begin with yours.

- Okay.

Photo or artifact?

- Let's begin with your photo.

- None of you can see this, so I'll try and describe it.

But basically it's me and my husband and our two kids at the Mile High Swinging Bridge at Grandfather Mountain.

And I have two children.

Lucy is seven and Sydney is five.

They are very special little people, but we love to take them on adventures and hiking is one of those things that we really enjoy.

And I, so just being in the mountains for me is just soul grounding.

There's just something about mountains that really speaks to my soul, so.

- [David] And you have a prayer book from your great-grandmother?

- Mm-hmm.

- Dated?

- [Catherine] 1919.

- Wow.

- From Mount Airy North Carolina.

- Yeah.

- When at the time there were how many Jewish families?

- Two.

Two.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, my, so my great-grandmother, Rosa Schaeffer, she is somebody who I really wish I could have known because I think that, and she's an inspiration to me.

I think in this day and age, she probably would've become a social worker.

She immigrated from Germany, this Jewish woman in rural North Carolina recognized that there were kids coming to school who didn't have breakfast or hadn't had enough to eat.

And so she essentially opened a soup kitchen in her own house.

Like she was very progressive for her time and she was a force to be reckoned with and just had a spirit of social justice that I hope that I can honor in the way I live my life.

And she's an inspiration to me.

- Ashley, what did you bring?

- Well, I brought these beautiful pearls and the reason why these pearls are so important to me is as I was growing up, my grandmother always wore pearls.

She always wore them to church and I always had, you know, a deep memory of her wearing pearls and never really knew why they were so significant.

And later on at, probably about two years ago, one of my friends is really into history.

And so as a member of the Waccamaw Siouan Tribe, being a coastal tribe for the state, I learned that pearls was a symbol of, really of honor for indigenous women on the coast.

And even though she never taught me that, learning that later and making that connection between her wearing the pearls and them being important for her, but never really explaining, you know, why they were, to later learn that in life, kind of this reinvigoration of showing strength as a native woman and the importance pearls has in our culture, - Lee.

- Okay, so my photo, I kind of cheated and made a collage, [laughing] because I was like, "how can I maximize this?"

So these, like the middle one is basically the family that took care of me when I lived in Texas and was finishing up my undergraduate degree in biology.

Like all I had to do is use my GI bill for school.

They fed me, they housed me basically.

They're like, "Listen man, you want that degree?

You have a once in a lifetime opportunity to not have to work for it, just go do it".

Latin honors, I'm now a biologist.

This one here is me and my wife and our functionally adopted a little sibling.

She just finished a counseling master's from UNC Greensboro and she's currently working as a therapist.

That's us again at the pool.

And the rest of these are actually photos of my army buddies.

This is, like, this is from the reunion.

This is the rock at Fort Stewart.

That's like telling everybody about, I think that was the Afghanistan one.

This is Rocky, the Bulldog.

So if you know "The Dogfaced Soldier" song from, if you saw "To Hell and Back", the Audie Murphy story, that's the song at the beginning and the end.

And this is like all of us, playing probably some ungodly card game that we shouldn't play.

So there's that.

And then the hat actually has nothing to do with military because my boonie cap is desert.

This is an arctic one.

And it actually involves my grandmother.

My grandmother was a once in a, just like a once in a lifetime woman and she just marched to the beat of her own drummer.

And my grandfather died and I had to come home on emergency leave.

So for whatever reason, it was in my car or whatever, and my grandfather and my grandmother had been divorced my entire life.

So obviously, they didn't really like each other.

So my grandmother steals my boonie cap, puts on some sunglasses, puts on a red dress, sits in the family pew at the funeral.

And I'm like, "What are you doing?

Why are you doing this?"

She pulls the hat down, she pulls the sunglasses down and she's just like.

So that's just the story of everybody in my family is like that.

If you don't have thick skin and you can't think fast, you will not make it with them.

- Yeah.

[woman chuckles] - Bilar.

- Okay, so, I'm sorry, I have the pictures on my cell phone, so I'm going to show them to you.

First, I'm going to show for us, I'm from Colombia.

I immigrated to the United States 19 years ago with my two daughters.

You can see them here.

We are using our Colombian dancing dresses because for us, dancing is a beautiful expression of our culture and who we are and we love dancing together.

We started dancing with my oldest daughter in Colombia.

The youngest one came when she was four.

So she learned from us, but also to show how family is important for us.

And here it's harder to see is so we are a blended family.

I married a guy from New York, a Jewish guy, we converted.

He has three older kids and now we have nine grandkids.

So we are a family of 19 right now here in the United States, blended family.

We have members of our family from Jordan, from the United States, from Philippines, and us from Colombia.

And it's beautiful to see our grandkids, they call us abu, which is abuela in Spanish, tias, the aunts, but also they feel proud telling everybody they have a Colombian background because they, so it is very nice to see.

And of course my dad, my mom died six years ago, but my dad is still in Colombia but it's very important for us as family.

Thank you.

- Thank you.

Fiaz.

- Sir.

So as an artifact, I brought myself, [all laughing] and as for a family picture, this is the digital age.

So you know, you got to do whatever, and so I do have, I'm the fourth generation American, of course immigrated from India.

And we both came here, me and my wife.

And we have three children, two boys and a girl.

And we came up north, New Jersey, and then we moved down to North Carolina about 25, 26 years ago and felt good.

They went to college, universities and they're working here now.

That's so much, - It, we'll circle back to this later and follow up on stories, but in particular, you've told the story that when you told family you were coming south to North Carolina.

- Yes.

- How did they respond?

- Well, not only the family, the people said, "Don't go there, man.

Where are you going?"

They said, "You're going south?"

I said, "Yeah, because I've been there once and after I leave Delaware, they're all waving their hands as though they know me".

While coming North Carolina I felt good about it.

You know?

You go to the toll, they say, "Hey, how are you?

How was your trip?"

You go to, you know, New Jersey or New York, they're "Hmm".

[laughing] So I said, "Okay, so this looks good".

And so I came in and really felt good and working in the medical field, it's, I felt, that these people are more family than what I saw other places.

So that's what brought me here.

- [David] Thank you, Nisha.

- Well, I have, my artifact is on my phone as well as my picture.

I have historically, you know, grew up, I grew up in New Jersey, my family's from India as well.

I come from a Hindi background, Christian convert, and I was raised and very much assimilated to American culture and was born in America.

And so I didn't realize the strength of family heritage and just family in itself and I grew up really knowing my grandmother as this beautiful stoic figure.

And so this is a picture of my family's heritage and both my grandmothers are in here and my mom's a little baby.

But it's just the beautiful houses and the culture and the family and the close knit ties that are there is something that I'm exploring and I'll take that back today.

And while I make that bridge from heritage to what is my life go forward, this is a picture of myself and my two children, Abigail and Elijah, and a picture of them greeting at church because I converted to Christianity when I was 15 and we live to serve God, so.

- Thank you.

Anna?

- All right.

I brought a couple things.

The first thing I brought was my grandmother's button box.

She worked in the mill.

I'm from Winston.

I was born and raised here.

So the welcoming attitudes of North Carolina are very much normal.

[chuckles] But with her, she worked in the mill and she went to work when she was 14 years old.

And her button box is what I inherited when she passed.

These are buttons that people would keep together so that if they're going to place them on outfits or clothes, she would have sets of uniqueness or things that were very similar.

So she would collate her buttons.

And then underneath is where she had some of her other items like the sewing scissors, the needles, the pins and things like that.

And my grandfather, he worked for Cannon Mills for 40 years.

And so this being a textile state, this was very important and handed down.

And in fact, when one would pass that had the button box, we know who gets it next because it stays in the family.

- Wow.

- Wow!

- The other thing I brought was my children's book that I wrote in 2000, in 2015 and it's about my dogs.

So, it's a project that I did with my niece and I don't know if you can see, let's see here.

No, she's not on this one.

She's on the second edition.

But, [chuckles] but she had a school project 'cause she was homeschooled and she's like, "I don't wanna do this, I don't wanna do this".

And I said, "Well, if you write a story, I'll write a story".

And then of course it became bigger than life and I decided to get it published.

And so I've had that for a couple years and it's in the Library of Congress and I kind of feel important and I'm like, "Oh, I'm an author".

So it's lots of fun.

- Thank you for sharing.

- You're welcome.

- Jake, Where do we begin?

- That's right.

[chuckles] - I guess we'll start with my artifact.

It's an old clipping from a newspaper, that, let's see, everybody see?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- From 1956.

And this is about Uncle Bob Long.

He never had a house.

He just wandered the valley, helped farmers, slept in barns, ate wherever supper started, whatever house he was at at suppertime.

And some of the things my mom picked out for it is people called him the original hippie because he had long hair and a beard, [woman chuckles] and he would sleep in people's barn lofts.

He he slept at my granddaddy's long house for years, and his last year's stayed in preacher Tom Irwin's house.

One time he was swimming in the river and had a feeling and started cussing.

And when he thinking evil thoughts and he looked up the river and they were having a baptismal.

- Oops.

[laughing] - He said that their sins washed off of them onto him.

- Oh.

- Ohh!

[all laughing] Yeah, and he said that's why he felt so mean all of a sudden.

He walked all the time in brogans and he said he wanted to be buried standing on his head with his feet sticking outta the ground so everybody could see his bunions from all the walking he did.

- Was he buried that way?

- I do not believe so.

[laughing] But yeah, he's, you know, he's not a huge character in life, but like our family in the newspaper and stuff.

And he's different.

Definitely different.

And then some time along the course, I came along, just me and my mom, I believe we were camping and, but so it was hard.

We don't really have like full family pictures 'cause someone was always out of the picture.

And then this one is my dad and my brother at the paper mill that shut down.

And I think this was took around this for around the last year before it shut down.

So it, that one's, that one kind of hurt.

So, was raised in Western North Carolina my whole life and, you know, found my way down here.

- Thanks to everyone for sharing insight into who you are.

When we talked about this project, we talked about what would bring us here.

And that is the appearance that in the country, in this state, all parts of the state, people have difficulty talking with each other.

They can talk at each other, around each other, but it's hard to take on subjects where we disagree and be honest and authentic.

So my first question for you is, why is that?

Why are we so divided at this time in our history in this state?

Lee, let's begin with you.

- Some people will say that the last couple of elections have emboldened people to show their true color, so to speak.

I don't think that it was showing their true colors.

I think they just didn't say these things.

And we need to get back to a point where it's like, "Hey, if you disagree with me, that's cool.

If you disagree with my right to have pineapple on pizza, that's cool.

You don't have to have pineapple on your half.

Now, if you disagree with my right to exist as a free and clear citizen of these United States, I don't know that this is gonna work as a friendship and as a dialogue".

For me, if I sit down and I take the time to explain to you, "Hey, this is how I feel about this, this is why we don't agree", it's because I'm trying to preserve our friendship.

If I don't bother to do that, it's because I'm done.

And once I've reached that, you know, we don't need to have this conversation ever again and I don't want to talk to you anymore, I mean that.

So by extending the, "Hey, this is how I feel about that point", is giving people a chance to think about what they're saying and go, "Hey, maybe this may".

I mean, I'm not trying to win hearts and minds.

That's not my job.

But it's also not my job to educate you.

- Have any of you lost friendships over these disagreements?

- Yeah, I lost my, one of my best friends in Colombia when I converted to Judaism because she's very, it's Mariana, you know, it's like in Columbia or everywhere, it's a movement with Virgin Mary.

So she was very into it.

And she told me once every time I went to visit, she was like, "Oh, I need to save you.

I need to save your girls.

That's now my task in life".

And every time she wanted to talk about it, she was sending me all the time pictures and phrases through WhatsApp.

So I told her "We need to stop this because it is really not helping.

If you don't wanna hear from me why I converted, why I feel this way".

But also I ask her, "Have I changed as a person?

Have I changed as your friend or the way I act or the way we have this friendship?"

And she said, no.

I said, "So what is the point?

Let's if for you, it's so difficult, you know, to have this conversation about this, let's don't talk about it.

Let's don't talk about religion.

And I converted, I didn't, whatever, still have the friendship".

And she couldn't, she couldn't get it 'cause she said, "No, my task in life now is to save you and save your girls".

And I was like, "I'm sorry, so I'm done if we can't really continue having this friendship".

- So you talked about religion, you talked about politics.

Anyone else felt that tension enough that you think that a relationship you've had is just not what it used to be?

- I can, so I sort of say I'm like the black sheep of my immediate family because my dad would always say, "What's wrong with Catherine?"

So my sister has different social views, social political views than I do.

And so when we were trying to determine who should we put as the guardian for our children, when my husband and I were getting ready to go on a vacation, we didn't indicate my sister because she has certain views and beliefs that we just, that are just not aligned with what we want our children to learn.

And that, well, on the one hand, my sister and I are closer than we've ever been, on the other, that really created a lot of hurt.

And, I think it's always there in the background and I feel guilty about that, 'cause on paper it's like, "Well of course it should be your your sister".

And my kids love my sister and she's a fantastic aunt.

But there's some fundamental beliefs that I can't get past in terms of what I want my children to learn.

- [David] Tell me more about your dad saying "What's wrong with Catherine?"

[Catherine laughs] - So my dad, my dad, God rest his soul.

So my dad actually, growing up, my dad was like, "I'm the Democrat in the family.

I don't know what's wrong with the rest of you".

Now he's a southern Democrat.

That was a whole other thing.

But he would always say it's important to debate, it's important to disagree, it's important to listen.

And as he got older, that decreased.

And then I became much more liberal than the rest of my family.

I mean, I went from being a registered Republican and sort of poo-pooing a lot of things that friends and colleagues were doing to very much the opposite.

And so anytime my dad would meet friends of mine, he'd be like, "Well, let's talk about, let's talk about Catherine".

"Why, what's wrong with her?"

To the point where, I mean, my dad would listen to Fox News on the radio, on TV and I would tease him when he was diagnosed with dementia.

I was like, "Well that finally explains why you've been watching so much Fox News.

It's the dementia!

That makes me feel better".

But he just, he couldn't understand why I, and my sister and to a lesser extent my mom, they just couldn't understand why my worldview shifted.

But at the same time, the fundamentals are still the same.

You know, I was raised with the fundamental beliefs of you love the stranger, you embrace your neighbor, you take care of people, you do good deeds in this world and that is how you live a Jewish life.

And that hasn't changed.

But yeah, they just, as my dad would say, "She's a tree hugging liberal".

Yeah.

With lots of love in his heart.

- Ashley.

- May I add into, I will not leave Catherine out there with that.

Yeah, so my house is also, our immediate family is a bit split.

Similarly, grew up, very good Christian values in my family and helping each other and loving and giving and, I love my dad, but I went away in the military for, I think I was probably gone from 2001 2016.

So I was gone for quite a bit of time.

But I mean, obviously I stayed very connected with my family and I lived in Germany for a while, I deployed to Iraq.

I lived in Seattle for a while and had many different experiences in life.

And my viewpoint of what loving each other means and what having good relationships means and being able to talk to people.

You know, I experienced a lot more.

And so whenever I moved back home in 2016, I felt like the fundamental things that I grew up and was raised with, kind of had shifted into something that was nearly, like to me, like even unrecognizable.

Like that's not how you raised us.

My husband is Filipino, he is from the Philippines.

Not yet, you know, he came, but not yet a citizen, we're working on that.

And so, he's lived here all his life, nearly all his life.

And so whenever it came time, they're talking about the southern border and immigrants coming and I'm like, "This is your family.

You're talking about your son-in-law!"

And just, no care.

And you know, it's like how do you?

And I had to hunker back to those core values and say, "You know, this is not, this is not like how you raised me.

We were raised to love each other and to give opportunity.

And so, even though that struggle, that deep hurt, did hurt my family being able to, I think, not talk about that in some cases, because it was sometimes better to just not talk about it than it was to like talk about it and have an explosion and then not being able to recover back from that.

So I made the choice of maintaining a relationship with my dad and my other siblings that believed that way to just remove myself from situations that, where those things came up.

And I knew my husband or my family was feeling uncomfortable 'cause I have half Native American, half Filipino kids who were talking about, you know, theoretically, their dad.

So, we just remove ourself from that situation so that I can, because the relationship with my dad is the most important thing.

And my family's the most important thing for me to be able to maintain that even though we have differences.

- We've talked about it with friends and family, it's also a struggle in the workplace sometimes.

- It is.

- Mm-hmm.

- I mean, Jake, you've told stories about when you and your fellow firefighters are called, you are one team, one unit.

You're there to serve the public.

When you return, you're still different.

- Still different.

Yeah, it's living in fire stations for 24, 48 hours at a time.

And everybody comes from different walks of life and different religious and political and just having to get along.

'Cause you can't escape, you can't leave.

Like you're just, you're there.

So like pretty much all of us, if the tones drop for a call, all that just goes away.

Get on the truck, get out the door, handle the situation and come back.

We might start, as soon as we walk through the bay door, we might pick back up later just chitchatting.

But at the end of the day, we're still all friends, all brothers and sisters.

So like I could call a guy right now that's, he's real liberal and obviously I'm the other end of the spectrum, but like call him and he would be right there to help me as same if he called me, I'd be right there to help him, outside of work, mechanical stuff or trucks or pick stuff up, which is, it's more like banter for us.

- Isn't that an interesting phenomenon though?

That you can differ in your beliefs about things, but when it comes to helping serving one another, you're locked in.

Fiaz, have you experienced that in all these many years working in the medical profession?

- Yes, it does.

See, it progressed to where we are now that the fundamental idea is we do not understand each other.

Once we begin to understand each other, these walls tend to crumble and then you see each other through, at least through the glass, if not, you know, really one-on-one.

And in the medical field, no matter the person that you're treating may be a homeless person or another one is a CEO.

You can't make a distinction difference.

You just have to serve.

So in particularly that field and also in the field of firefighting and police, they have to treat the people equal.

And now we used to have, you know, in my first experience working in factory, working with the elderly people, there was a lot of value.

That these people have got something in their hand, their techniques.

And then you, you talk about different generations now.

There are at least five or six different generations working in any work area.

Now how do you bridge those gaps?

Because we, one of the things that I'm miss missing, as I mentioned to you, is younger person, their idea is completely different than what ours, right?

And so I went to this seminar where they wanted to see how we can work this different generations together.

The scenario was, and it is true, the scenario was an old person like me trying to struggle with the computer, but he cannot match my experience because it doesn't come with any degree.

It's been 25 years I've been in there.

But he can come in and do this and, "See I told you".

I said, "Okay brother".

[laughing] When you're treating the patient, you can't do that.

I can do that same thing.

And so they run the scenario and they said okay.

He came back and said sorry.

I said, "In practical life it doesn't happen that way".

This young kid thinks that he got it all.

So how do we bridge the gap?

Because in the past we used to talk to each other, we used to sit with each other, have lunch.

Now the moment, if we take a break, everybody will be on theirs.

This is with all our kids.

All those who have the kids will understand that there is no communication now.

So the communication is not what is understood, what is meant to be understood.

That is the key, I think.

- Nisha, I saw you laughing a couple of times in agreement with what he was saying.

- Yeah, I think the older generations are, you know, everyone's very set in their ways and in a way of thinking.

And you can see that even as you watch.

We were talking about older movies earlier and we were talking about TV shows and how different generations have different cultural ideas of what a TV show should look like.

And, going back to your original point, like why is there so much division?

It's how the next generation is being raised and what they're exposed to and what is the norm?

Is it coming?

Are we maintaining the standards that we used to maintain?

Like, you turn on a television program and you're almost watching soft porn.

And while you see, and I'm a conservative republican and I'm looking at this and I'm like, "I know how I was raised and I wasn't a goodie two shoes", but as a mother, I don't want my children turning on the television without knowing exactly what they're watching and having to fast forward through scenes that I think are inappropriate, that are just on mainstream TV now.

And so I think the division's coming from where are our morals and what are they based off of?

And I know like with Islamic cultures and Jewish cultures, Christian cultures, Hindu cultures, if you're a religious person, you're not appreciating what some people today are putting forth into the environment, teaching your children to be okay with certain things.

And it's gotten so far that it's polarized our country.

- And that's part of the rub, isn't it?

Everyone at this table could describe morals and morality and pass a polygraph of saying they are telling the truth about the way they view what good morals would look like.

And yet we might get eight different answers.

Anna, how would you respond to that?

- I completely agree with what you've been saying because I've been saying this multiple times.

Over a period of time each generation is their responsibility to teach and pass on their heritage and what they feel is right and wrong.

And if you have a generation that said, "Oh, well I'm never gonna spank my child because my parents did it, I'm gonna be their best friend".

There may be less discipline.

So more unruly kids.

You know, they're not gonna be learning what no means.

If no is said in our household, no meant no.

Not of, "Oh, I'm going to sugarcoat it and I'm gonna bribe you.

'If you do this, I will do this.'"

You're the parent.

And over a period of time with generational gaps, you're seeing that they take it to the extreme of their generation.

And so what is acceptable in that generation is learned by the next generation.

"Oh this is okay".

Well then that generation takes it a little further and you become softened to seeing and hearing what "If my grandmother would've heard and seen some of these shows or heard some of the discussion and talks that people had, she would have", well I know what she would've done.

[chuckles] Go get your own switch and she would've spanked your hide or washed out your mouth with soap.

You know, so there's a softening through the years that we're seeing and we're seeing the consequences of that.

Also, media has played a big role in this.

Years ago we didn't have a smartphone where you could go onto Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and [imitates clicking], "Ha!

I gotcha!"

You know, there's no face, there's no personal disappointment that you see of the hurt that you may have caused somebody by the way you said something or even if you just said it, because back in the day, some of our training was, "If you don't have anything nice to say, you don't say it.

And if you really have to", because of the southern way, "you soften the way you say it, you learn the right words that are not gonna hurt".

You ask permission, you know, "Respectfully, how do you see this?"

Versus, [imitates anger] and killing them and knocking 'em down.

You ask permission to talk to those people honestly.

And if they accept that, okay, do it in a nice soft, loving way not to harm, but to help.

And I feel like the media has helped that because the generations that are really on the media nowadays, they don't see any limits.

They feel that they are entitled to have that right to say what they feel even though you have, everybody has opinions, they don't all have to be heard.

And you don't all have to wave a sign in somebody's face.

- So where would we, where would we draw a line to exclude those opinions?

- Yeah, I don't know.

Because that has to come internally.

Oops, sorry.

[chuckles] It has to come internally and you have to decide, "Am I going to be a better person if I have said this?"

You know, is it gonna make a difference?

And you have to decide.

- [Fiaz] But as a teacher, how would you start training the children at that point?

Or can you not even teach them?

I know you wrote books and- - Right.

- Yeah.

- When I was a teacher, I approached things very Christian-like and I knew a lot of my students came from group homes, poverty area, and they needed some of that help and guidance.

Now of course the school was made up of a conglomerate.

So you had some kids who were living in - Right, - In very wealthy homes, but when they were in my class, they knew what I stood for, and the actions met my words.

And that's where a lot of times they knew if I said this, this is what I meant.

And we weren't crossing that line.

You know, over the years I've had multiple children who have grown up to be wonderful adults and they've come back and I didn't even recognize 'em, but they called me by name and I was like, "Oh, hi!"

And then they thanked me for setting those standards.

You've gotta set the bar and the standards so that others can come up to that.

But if you don't have a standard, how do they know what to meet?

- Thank you, - Lee, you've spent a lot of time in other places of the world, as has Ashley, as many of us at this table, and those perspectives from seeing what happens in other parts of the world and how other citizens have to live can change the way you respond to some of these questions.

- Right.

That is right.

- Or it can just deepen how you would've responded to begin with.

As you listen to this conversation so far, are you thinking "yes, but", or "yes, and?"

- Some of it is yes, but, some of it is yes, and.

And it just depends on the topic.

As far as things teaching kids I don't need the kids to accept me.

I'm good, I'm in my own world.

I'm chilling, I'm vibing.

Now what you guys were saying about discipline, I was a correctional officer after I spent my time in the military.

I worked in the North Carolina DPS system for four years and then I moved to Texas and I was a detention officer for three before I went back to school for my biology degree.

Now having said that, you don't have to discipline your kids if you don't want to, one of us will.

- Oh God!

[laughing] - And I would rather see you do it so your kid doesn't come in my sally port.

I'd rather see you do it so your kid's not bloody on the side of the road.

You know, I would rather see the parents take care of the issue because it begins at home and a lot of times the parents were just as, I don't wanna say corrupt, because that's not quite the right word, but like you were saying, they're being their kid's best friend.

My parents were not my friends, my father was a drill sergeant like back in the '70s, like when it was really not cool and they were not my friends, they were very much not my friends.

And I was a wild child, which is how I ended up in the military.

And it worked out.

They disciplined me.

I got, I learned all sorts of discipline from the drill sergeant that said, "You're gonna do this or else!"

And I was fortunate because I was able to do it that way and not do it in a place with bars and jumpsuits.

So... - Mm-hmm.

- So listening to this conversation, there's nothing political about what we're talking about.

How do we, how do you think society moves from paying attention to something like education, discipline, looking out for the welfare of a child, so later in life that child is not in the position you were talking about?

How do we move from this type of meaningful conversation when we're not at this table, to where the heat is turned up that we didn't expect it to?

- So, while it's not explicitly political, I definitely am hearing political undertones.

So like when Nisha was saying, "I don't want my children to learn certain things."

I will say that that is a little bit triggering for me because I think, "What don't you want your children to learn?"

You know, I want my children to learn as much as possible.

I think those different worldviews from travel, from mixing with children from very different backgrounds, group homes, wealthy, from having to bridge differences and treating people as human beings as opposed to, you know, a CEO versus a homeless person.

I want them exposed to those things.

I want them to learn about gender identity.

I want them to learn about different religions.

I want them to learn so that then they can make up their own minds.

And so when I hear people express fear of children and people learning and being exposed to difference, that makes me anxious.

And I feel like for me at least, that's where some of the heat comes in.

Because, where is the harm in sharing of ideas?

You know, we're going back to Galileo and being excommunicated from the Catholic church because he had the gall to put forth an idea that was outside of the traditional teaching.

So that is for me at least where some of the heat comes from.

- [David] Yes.

Nisha.

- Just to answer that, I have a very...

I spoke at a protest about sex education in the United States and actually it was a global protest 'cause it was happening in the UK as well.

And they have introduced curriculum, not at every school.

I don't believe CMS is putting pornographic images in children's books, but they are teaching fellatio and anal sex in school books.

And I've seen the pictures and it's not appropriate.

I think school needs to be, "Hey, how do you learn mathematics?"

And yes, learn about different cultures and different religions and understand that.

I don't want my six-year-old or seven-year-old.

My children are about, my son's about to be 10 and my daughter is 12.

I don't want somebody to say, "Let's figure out what gender you are", when you're four.

I am completely opposed to sex change operations in children.

I don't like that even being exposed or talked about in front of them because in my mind, in a very traditional way, and I have very, very wonderful gay friends, I can side where there was a transvestite one time that had spoken about purity and I believe in purity before marriage.

I can make those bridges, but I certainly don't want my little children learning anything other than a man as a man and a woman is a woman and man and wife in a context of marriage.

And I have gay married friends and I'm secretly not so secretly happy for them 'cause they're happy.

But I don't want them to be taught that as children - [Catherine] Can I ask why?

- Because it's not an option in my faith.

It's just not even an option.

And it's, I would like in any faith, actually.

My family's Hindu.

It's just not an, it's not something that... We're traditionalists.

- Yeah, one of the arguments I've heard about this conversation is to not withhold the information from a child so they can ultimately make their own decisions.

Yet if they're not guided in a family who is open with discussion, or maybe it's a single parent family, maybe not, but if there were the guidance, could it be, could it reach a level of confusion for a younger child that could bleed over into other parts of their lives?

Because we don't have the perfect world are family's engaging the way you do or the way Nisha does?

- Sure.

- So how would you respond to that?

- I mean, I really feel like that's born out of fear and ignorance.

I mean, I don't think anybody is sitting down with children and saying, "What gender do you think you are?"

and out of the blue.

You know, talk to anybody who identifies as trans and they will say, "I knew from a very young age, nobody planted that seed in my head".

I mean, it sort of goes back to the arguments too about do we teach about safe sex or not?

You know, teaching about safe sex isn't gonna make people have sex.

Teaching about different gender identity is not gonna make people change their gender.

It's a biological phenomenon.

So I think that is where having conversations with people from the trans community can be really helpful with diminishing some of that fear of the unknown.

And I can understand why that would be scary, especially if it challenges something that's so fundamental to who you are, especially from a faith-based position where that is deeply in your soul.

And so I don't mean to minimize that at all, but I do think that at least being open to hearing from real people who really have experienced some of these things can diminish a lot of the fear and misconceptions.

It might change the way you think.

- May I just answer that real quick just to go back to, "It's not a choice?"

One of my greatest mentors actually, she mentored me and decided to cross the line when I was being obnoxious in the work world.

I was a brand new financial analyst, thought I knew everything, probably similar to some of the people you interacted with.

Well, she was very badly traumatized by a man and chose to change her gender.

I don't want that to even, you know, like she's someone I look up to that I ask for advice from.

But when it comes to training up children, it's an absolute no.

You know, like, "Hey, you need to learn not to bully people that are different from you".

That's one thing.

So I understand that aspect of it.

But people do make intentional choices.

They explore based off of curiosity.

It's why I would never want the legalization of marijuana unless it's a medical purpose.

You know, it is a gateway drug and my friends have died and it is a mode of curiosity and I have seen people make an intentional choice.

- Lee, what do you hear?

- I can answer that one.

- What do you hear?

- Okay, so as I'm assuming, and I may be incorrect in my assumption, that I am the openly queer person at the table.

If I'm incorrect, somebody please let me know.

All right, moving on.

[people laughing] Your objections are faith-based, correct?

- Yes.

- That's what you were saying, I just wanna make sure I'm- - Faith and tradition.

- Okay.

Now as far as the sex education part, part of that, a lot of that I disagree with what you're saying, mainly because number one, if the kid can't identify what's happened to them, like say if it's childhood sexual abuse, the kid can't describe it in court, the perpetrator's gonna get away with it.

And that's part of the reason why you would want to promote sex education.

However, the other side of that, is like you said, they were putting fellation and anal sex in the textbooks?

- That's what yeah.

- I'd rather them learn it in a controlled environment in class than from their friends behind the school after school.

So I understand what you're saying and I appreciate what you're saying, but in some cases people are gonna do what people are gonna do.

Now as far as the the gender identity thing, I didn't learn that in school.

I can tell you that.

I'm from here, I'm from Winston-Salem.

I went to science and math.

I graduated class '95, go Unis.

I did not learn.

Now how, mind you, a lot of my friends at this juncture are part of the community.

None of us knew that then.

We were not taught that.

We joked that it might've been in the water, but at, I mean if you had seen 16, 17-year-old me, I was probably the biggest homophobic person you would've ever met because of the way I was raised.

You can out, if I out, if I unlearned it, anybody can, I mean my dad, my parents threw me out.

Like my dad was cool, my parents were divorced.

When I told my dad I was, you know, I was a lesbian, he was like, "Ah, we didn't raise no queers".

I was like, "Well, it looks like you did!"

[laughing] And then he was like, "Well, you always threw a football better than any of the other guys on the block.

I'm here for it".

- Okay.

- My mother on the other hand, who's an extremely conservative evangelical Christian, literally threw me outta the house.

- Do you realize what you've just done?

And allowing people at this table, strangers until last night and until this morning, two additional people, to actually laugh along with you of talking about something as serious as it is that you're talking about?

That people have either been crass in the past, making jokes about it or didn't know how to talk about it, and you've just opened up a pathway to say, "You know, we were talking, we were having a conversation, met this person last week, let me tell you what their experience was".

I'm just presuming, Jake, - Mm-hmm.

- And correct me if I'm wrong, that the conversation of the firehouse might not be as open as what we just heard?

Or maybe more so.

- Probably more so, more real.

Probably a lot rawer.

[laughing] - [Catherine] Not using words like fellatio?

- Yeah.

Well probably 90% of us can't even spell fellatio.

[laughing] - But you might wanna see it.

- But we have... - [Catherine] Sorry.

[all laughing] - Oh!

- I'm sorry.

- And mic drop.

[indistinct] - Well, - And we literally, the firehouse is like, usually the fire stations and they try to mimic the community, the percentages of different cultures, races, religions.

Like it's, you know, you'll go into Asheville, you're gonna have more Caucasians and stuff like that because it's Appalachian America.

Like it's the backwoods.

So they're really trying to up the game and get more culture in this fire service.

But you are limited to geographical location.

But we have people like, Nisha?

- Yeah.

- Nisha that are this extreme, this side of the table.

And same thing, Catherine over here, and all in between.

Like, it's a true melting pot inside the firehouse of the people but there probably are higher percentages in the center of the, just, you know, "Cool, leave me alone".

Like, "You do you".

It's like, "I'm gonna be over here".

[laughing] So, I mean, and I don't have kids personally, not yet anyway, but I don't see why we need to be teaching in elementary school that, "Oh, well you can pick what you are".

Like, yeah, I mean, you can call yourself what you want, but you're not gonna change the science, the biological part of that.

Like it's, "You want me to call you a dog?"

No, I'm not gonna do that.

You can't pick who you are from birth.

Like this is what, this is the card you were dealt.

But then to force somebody else to go along with your agenda of yourself, I'm not, you know, respectfully, "I'm gonna decline to go along with what you feel like.

What do you want me to call you?"

Them and they terms confuse me because you're not a Siamese twin.

Like you don't have a second person beside you.

- Let's talk about pronouns for, you brought that up.

- [Jake] Yeah.

- What do you make of where the use of pronouns have become?

Anna?

- [Anna] They need to be in sentences.

[laughing] - In sentences.

- But, you know, it's very difficult because I was raised he and she.

There weren't others.

And I still feel that it's very difficult for me to honor and respect that.

I'll just be honest.

It's difficult.

- [David] And why?

- I'm not really sure other than just tradition and what I've been taught and my upbringing, and I don't oppose them wanting to be something else and different, that's fine, but underneath the clothes, there is a defined person of who you are.

And I feel like people hide behind wanting to be something different.

And they, that's at least what I have found in my environment.

- [David] So if you had a, Fiaz?

- I'm sorry.

- No.

- I'll tell you where the difficulty comes in, from experience again.

Here I have a document that I go to the waiting room and call, "Paul, Mr. Paul Smith".

And this person is looking at me like I'm going crazy.

He said, "Come here", and he showed me the, he said, "No, I'm Veronica".

I said, "Sir, I am trained to verify the name, and date of birth, and that's why I called you what I called you".

"No, you are wrong".

I said, "Okay, so show me where it says Veronica that I can treat you".

And so after a little bit of conversation, then we came across, "Okay, let's move on with that without the name".

We got to absolute due respect because we are trained to respect the patient as a patient.

Person comes next.

So we checked their date of birth and we checked their identity, it is fine.

So see how difficult it gets when you come into cases like this?

Now a child was brought in and so now they both, both these ladies are calling themselves mothers.

I said, "Okay, so who takes the lead?"

No, no, no one says another.

The other one says, "I can't treat your child like this".

One says you decide at home who takes the lead, or, so these are the aspects that get very impractical in practical lives, especially when it comes to the children.

Go ahead.

That's my experience.

- No, no.

No, I want to talk about our experience because I work in a Latino nonprofit organization and we serve everybody, not just Latinos, but, and we've had to go through all of this, yes, because we have LGBTQ Latinx community and also coworkers.

So we had to go through and we have, I'm the only Jewish at the office now, but we have Christians, we have Catholics, you name it, yes?

So we have to go through all of this to see how we can come together to work together because we have a common mission, yes?

And vision for what we do and how we can learn.

And I think that's the piece, yes?

How we can learn from each other because you, I can say I'm right.

You can say you're right, everybody.

And I think that's the problem why now we have all these issues because now is, "You have to understand me and understand what I need and my uniqueness".

But, how about me, the other side?

if everybody thinks like that, nobody's going to get along, yes, because you have to accept me as I am and everybody doing that.

But we had these conversations and about the pronouns and we decided at some point at the organization, everybody will have in their signature of the email, their pronoun, yes?

And then somebody raised their hand and she said, "I don't agree, I don't feel comfortable doing it".

And I thought, "Okay, so let's do this.

Who feels comfortable doing it?

Do it.

Who doesn't, he doesn't".

And then the LGBTQ+ program coordinator stood up and said, "I thought you supported us.

I thought the organization was really to with us".

And I said, "I am, I am still.

We are as an organization, but I'm also for this other person, for this other group.

We are here for each other.

So we need to respect how everybody feels and how each person feels".

And don't get me wrong, still a very tough conversation.

When we have staff meetings, we are going now under, because now it's very in to talk about DEI, yes?

Diversity, equity, inclusion, everybody's doing it.

Some organizations or corporations or local government institutions are doing it for checking the box.

And for a lot of them, it's how we can include people other than Caucasians.

Yes?

Or from other minorities.

For us, we are 99% Latinos in our office, but all of us, we come from different backgrounds, different immigration experience.

Some of them were born in the United States, but they're still Latinos, generations, different generations, you name it.

So how we can be really equitable and inclusive, respecting each other and, it's a tough one.

But I also think talking about when they go to the doctor, we advocate a lot and what we try to do is to inform people and also advocate for trying to change their names in their cards so when they go, they don't find these issues, because it's every day.

But also how we can, our kids are going to be exposed to everything.

And it's how I feel.

It's how I feel how as parents or aunts or uncles or whatever families we get, prepare, having open conversations, as Catherine say.

So we are prepared.

We don't need to teach them, but they are going to come up, or as you said, yes, somebody is going to tell them something and it's better if we as parents or guardians can be prepared to have those conversations.

But again, based in respect of each other.

- Ashley, I know you wanted to respond to this.

- Yeah, yeah.

I do.

You know, kind of two pieces too, both on the pronouns and also about just educating kids.

You know, I saw growing up, so many not that I thought were maybe queer and not being able to live their authentic and full life.

Right.

Living in the closet, so to speak.

Whenever I left from home, experiencing like different, you know, different people.

One of my managers was, she was openly gay.

It was my first time, you know?

Being so engaged and also my best friends and so, you know, growing up or not really growing up, I guess, well that's probably my growing up life, but living in Seattle and just seeing kind of how inclusive and how you can live that full life and I just saw how happy queer people are living there.

Fremont, you know, it was a gay pride parade growing up with like deep Christian values here in North Carolina.

And going there, I settled back into just loving people.

And I was like, number one, that to me is number one, is to make sure that I am truly loving.

And loving as not just a word, it's an action.

And so being there and supporting each other and being friends and it allowed me to have and build a relationship that was with someone that was not the way that I was raised.

So it allowed us to have grace and have these conversations, like kind of what we're doing today.

And I could ask the questions, right.

That in a non-threatening way and just understand, you know, "Hey, when did you find out?"

kinda like, you know, "How did that come about?"

And so that I could learn more, and then as I learned more, I was accepting more, because I settled back into the really the root of God is loving each other and what that looks and what that feels like.

And so whenever I came back home, that's definitely not the norm, the majority here.

And so I do struggle with it quite a bit because I love seeing queer people out and proud.

Like that to me I'm like, "Yes!"

You know, whenever I see someone who has to like maybe keep their partner home when they go to family events, or maybe they can't go to a gay pride parade because they're gonna lose a part of their family.

Just like you said, you know, families are splitting up because they forget about, to me, they forget about loving each other and what that truly means.

And they're saying, "Get out.

I don't wanna".

Like, loving each other means that you have to accept it the way that they're living.

And so I really felt like I wanted to make sure that my sons, I have two young boys, and that they grow up in an environment, a family environment, that if they do, if they are queer, at any point in their life, that they know that they will always have a mom and a dad that will be there and support them and love them regardless.

And it doesn't come up about, like, you get to choose.

If they naturally go that path, I will be the mom who is right there with them supporting them.

Because to me, still loving my kids and supporting them is at the root of that.

And I would never sacrifice that for my, yeah, yeah.

- So I just had one question to throw out to the folks who have a different view is, what is the harm in your patient who goes by Veronica?

And I'm a physician as well, and I, you know, it's like asking Jake, do you prefer Jake or Jacob.

If he wants to be called Jacob, I mean, doesn't have any bearing on me.

So what is, what if somebody says, you know, I know I'm biologically male, but I really feel like I'm a female.

How does that hurt any of us?

What is the downside?

- It doesn't, and it's just that, and I think we touched upon this earlier.

It's not, it's the obsession with it.

It's like my gay friend, we would sit at a conference room.

I didn't care about her sexuality.

We weren't talking about pronouns, we were talking about the business.

- Sure.

- But did you call her the name she wanted to be called?

- Yes.

Yes.

- Okay.

- Because she shortened her name and I'm like, okay, she even got the surgery.

But we're not gonna have an entire, like it shouldn't, it's like- - Feel everything shouldn't revolve around those people.

- Yeah, and it's- - Bring up a good a point though.

Who is obsessed?

Are the people who live in the world of advocacy obsessed?

Are the people who live in the world of being against it or fear, or where's the obsession?

- It's the media.

And I'm sorry I know that this is a, you know, a broadcast and all that, but like, it's the media.

There was, my friend posted on Facebook and they were like, you know, and this goes back to Black Lives Matter or Asian Lives Matter or the gay pride thing.

And it just like, let's look at what percentage people think people are black in this country versus what percentage they really are.

And there was a huge difference.

How many people are actually gay versus how many people are being raised in a traditional household.

If it wasn't coming out all over the media, all over the planet, with all this commotion.

I mean like the rainbow, the rainbow, the rainbow was in Genesis, in the Bible.

And it talks about how the rainbow was a symbol that God would ever flood the planet again, you know?

And that's a sacred symbol to certain people.

And it's just like, why do we have to make a spectacle?

If you're gay, come to the table.

Let's talk about what we need to get done here.

- [David] Well, is it possible?

- Okay.

Can I say something on this?

- Yes, please.

- So, and I meant to address this earlier, and I apologize because I did not, yes, I have referred to myself as queer.

It should have been the LGBTQ+ community and I apologize for that.

For me, queer is the best descriptor of who I am and what I am.

However, older people of the community, if you call them queer, that is still a slur to them.

Be careful using that word.

Because if they're, I'm approaching 50, if they're older than me, don't do it.

They will get upset with you.

- Yes, so the answer to that one is, that's why I prove to you that I have a document that I'm supposed to legally use.

And if suddenly somebody says, "No, I'm not that", then I have no option to say, "Okay, then you're not the person".

That's what I meant.

If somebody wants to call whatever name, I have, nobody has any issue, right?

Call me whatever.

They used to call me Freon.

What?

The cooling gas?

Yeah.

No, my name is Fiaz, F-I-A-Z.

So yeah, because you know, in the Western they just want to change the name.

That's fine.

I said that's okay.

But in legal terms, I was expressing the difficulty that there is.

It issues.

That's the only issue.

- Yeah.

He mentioned the impractical in a practical world.

Which I think to everyone at this table makes sense.

Yet there are some people who might take that statement and say I'm going to use it to my political belief and to say this is not practical.

Okay.

Well maybe it is if we peel back layers.

You were talking about love.

- [Ashley] Yeah, yeah.

- That word is tossed around like a football on Super Bowl Sunday.

It can be either inclusive, it can be romantic, it can be an affinity for something and it can be very misleading.

- Mm-hmm.

- But when it's used in different ways.

How do we best share with the world that we do care?

"We do love you even though I vehemently disagree with you."

I was taught growing up, "Hate the sin.

Love the siner".

- Yes.

- Mm-hmm.

- Well that's a real pass.

That's like a default key going back to something that gives me a pass.

I don't have to really own my feelings about that.

Can you really, really love and embrace someone who is diametrically opposed to the core of your belief?

And if so, how do you show it in a practical way when the world is often impractical?

Jake, what d'you think?

- Man, it's, you know, we serve a very diverse community anyway, just, and it's growing, it's spreading out from Asheville.

It's hard to say, like, definitely acts of kindness.

Like... Last year it was me and my girlfriend's one year dating anniversary.

We went to Grandfather Mountain 'cause that was where our first date was.

And during this, we're coming down the mountain and I look over and I see a minivan sitting there, which I make fun of all the time.

And a guy up under it, the tire off of it, stuff scattered everywhere.

And I stopped, looked and looked back at her and was like, "You know, I'm gonna stop?"

She's like, [sighs], "I know".

So we go over there and the guy ended up having car problems, having to change stuff.

Don't know who he was.

Know he is from the coast.

That's all I know about him.

But their car broke down coming up the mountain and they had to get it out.

He didn't have the right tools.

But I carry a small mechanic's shop in my truck.

And so here in middle of our little anniversary date and dinner, trying to get back to Hot Springs and take the parkway and all this stuff, we just stopped and fixed it and got our way.

But I didn't walk up and be like, "Do I, Mr, Mrs?"

Like, "Hey bud, need some help?"

- You also didn't walk up and ask who did you vote for in the last election?

- Yeah, right.

- Yeah.

We, it's, you know, it's regardless.

Like we're all, I feel like in life, we're all human.

We all want a house, grow up, love, you know, family.

Like every, at the core of everyone at this table, the homeless guy in the street, that's on drugs, everybody wants certain core things and they're all the same.

- Yeah.

- Regardless of what our views are.

- Mm-hmm.

- We all have a heart.

We're all blood, brain.

Some are gifted with more.

I'm assuming this guy could smoke me on a written test?

[all laughing] - Don't go after my looks, really.

[all laughing] I believe.

- But yeah, like- - But Jake touched a very important point.

When he saw the need, he didn't go and ask, "What is your identity?"

He saw a human being in trouble, period.

So, and that person did not say, "I'm so and so, do you know who I am?"

No.

It was just a matter of interaction to help each other.

And that removes the barrier.

But once I begin to say, "Hey, do you know who I am?

Then the other person says, "Maybe.

Whoever you are", right?

That causes friction.

And if Jake was right on the human level, we are all human beings, we share the same earth.

God does not discriminate with the sun.

The sun shines on the world.

All of those are given.

And so if we were to understand that part and not, like she was saying, impose on other people, then it'll be much better.

In terms of teaching the children, you know, children, that's why we have progression.

We have pre-K, kindergarten, first, second, third, fourth.

If I on this table start talking about quantum mechanics or you know, "What are you, what are you doing here?"

No, that's not the point.

This class is for a particular one.

So the children are taught based on their understanding and perception, and that is what they're literally taught based on their understanding.

And so in pre-K they just come together to understand each other, that you cannot just go run around here and there.

There's a period for resting.

There's a period for bathroom, period for lunch and everything else.

I do volunteer with the kids.

That's why.

And I also volunteer at the prison, central prison, where they will never come out unless they're dead.

So you see those differences why.

And he's right, you know, but you do not teach the children crime to save crime.

Hey, you know this drug, if you take this, this is what's gonna happen.

No, no, no.

They say no.

They don't teach those things until they begin to understand the good and bad then they say, "This is evil, this is good".

And so they are supposed to choose the good.

We tend to now, you know, just in this nation of plenty and everything good, there are 100 people die every day of legal drugs.

Not the illegal drugs.

[indistinct chatter] It's a tragedy beyond anything.

They're found in the bathroom, they're found behind the parking lots.

Where is the pressure?

What is going on?

Why can't you make it?

And these are all between 20 to 35.

It's aat the prime of the life.

Why are you be losing it?

So we need to catch it much earlier so they don't go to that point where we feel frustrated and think that we can't do anything.

- I would like to have a rare moment of agreement with Nisha.

[laughing] That I mean, so I think that the example that Jake gives, I think those are the wonderful human things that are happening every day.

I think we can all think of moments where we've helped somebody or somebody who has helped us.

And there hasn't been a discussion about, "Well, what are your pronouns?"

Or, you know, "What bumper stickers do you have?"

But that's not what we're seeing in the media.

And that's not what's being portrayed in the media.

But I think it, in the trenches as it were, wonderful human things like that are happening all the time.

And I tell my kids, I tell my students, you know, people are fundamentally good.

I mean- - But news, good news don't sell profits.

- But it's creating such terrible rifts.

- Everybody wants to see the wars and the fusses, - I mean- - Who got shot next?

- Yeah, yeah.

- Where the next damage is.

- It definitely, like that negativity fuels a lot of people and that's all they wanna suck in.

Like, if you had good news all the time, I would sure ratings would go down, - But there, - But I don't know.

- There's an opportunity, 'cause I mean like, one of my favorite news channels, and it's not a channel, it's an app, right?

Because I don't like watching the news as much because of all of that.

But the BBC has, you can choose a country and it just tells you what happened.

And sometimes they allude to opinions and stuff like that, but those are special pieces, but it just tells you what happened in that country.

Was there an earthquake?

Did someone invade someone?

How many people died in Hawaii because of a fire?

You know, just the news.

And we can all sit together and pray together and hope for the best and send aid and do good things for the community.

It's got just enough drama, because real life can be dramatic, but without all of the noise.

- But I think you can also, I mean, just to your point, like you can filter what you see and sometimes that's a good thing.

Sometimes it might be a bad thing.

But I think for each person, how you're digesting and getting information and taking that in, it's different for each person.

Each person's just a little bit different in how you can- - It's hard.

You can't put cocaine in front of a coke addict and say don't touch it.

That's what media does.

- It's something that you yourself can have that, you make that decision for yourself.

How much time do you spend on Facebook?

How much time do you spend in your app, or watching the news, or you know, maybe there's like a certain one that you wanna watch.

Maybe you just watch local news.

I think that everyone just kind of gravitates to what they wanna consume more of.

It's kind of like the algorithms that you get in social sites.

You know, the more that you click on it, that's the more that you're gonna get.

And so eventually that's all you're gonna see is just that type of information.

So if all you're clicking on is that one thing, so I think if people understood how the system works then you can start controlling your own narrative about what you're digesting.

- So we're our own worst enemies is what you're saying.

- Exactly, exactly.

- That's what I'm curious.

How many of you watch a newscast on a daily basis?

One out of eight.

- Not daily.

- Okay, not daily.

Maybe once a week?

- Yeah, once a week.

Or just look up and just scan headlines.

- And yet our perception, and it may be real, is that one of the greatest problems is the media and how we cover things.

And yet this table doesn't watch much of it, and yet you feel that it's not being done properly.

I'm curious of how people draw those conclusions without the data of watching on a daily basis.

- We missed something.

- It's what used on the internet though.

- We missed the first party.

- [Fiaz] The social media now.

- Social media.

- Social media?

- Yeah.

- So when we're talking about media we're not necessarily talking about television news?

- Right.

- I would include, it could include some of that.

- Television, not just television news.

- Because social media is an absolute choice.

- Mm-hmm, yeah.

- Exactly.

- All media's a choice, but social media, that we complain about so much, but are glued to it.

- Yeah.

- It's like, where's our own responsibility in what we pay attention to, and aren't we smart enough or are we not, to discern between the difference of what's rhetoric and reality, even though it all sounds alike?

- Well, you know, I think that, and this is, my party's not gonna be happy with me, but when I look at things like X, formerly Twitter, versus Facebook, and I think the modern day has created a whole new problem with social media.

And I think Mark Zuckerberg, for instance, he'll say, "Okay, let's fact check everybody".

And on the Republican side, everyone's like, "Oh, they're a liberal platform.

We're getting fact-checked all of this stuff, we're getting kicked off".

And I'm like, "Well, no, but that's kind of why it's nice to have people on the other side that you're friends with".

'Cause I know a democrat got kicked off of Facebook a couple of years ago for posting something.

I don't have many friends.

So we kind of, we look at things with our own vision and our own lens.

And so, you know, I think Mark Zuckerberg was trying to create a how do you problem solve for the things that people are complaining about and that slander or false information and all of that.

And then people are like, well, he's taking one side because of where his political beliefs are formed.

And then there are platforms like Twitter where you're blatantly just throwing stuff out there.

And not that freedom of speech is, you know, very important thing in this country, but- - It can be a flame too.

- In today's age, when that constitution was written, it didn't take into account social media that slander is against our laws too.

- Right.

- I would offer that the form of social media then was an example with the Federalist papers or all media where people could say whatever they wanted to say anonymously and it was printed.

Look at Alexander Hamilton and how he slandered his opponents, yet we revere him in some ways.

So I think contextually we often talk about the constitution or the founding fathers and we weren't living in their world and really have no idea what motivated them at times other than their own ambition, their own greed under the guise of we want a better world.

- Yeah.

- I mean, I cite that just as a way we think at times.

We like to glamorize and we like to divide.

So I go back to the original question of why do you think we are so divided, and on these types of issues that we've discussed, how divided are we?

I mean there's some division here in this first bit of conversation, but there's been a lot of agreement along the way too.

Are we missing something in the promoting the acknowledgement of the division?

- It depends on who you ask.

It depends on who you ask.

Like when you were talking about the gay movement, I'm one that's, I am the queer that's just like civil rights movement, gay movement.

They are not equal in my eyes.

Because no matter what, I can kind of maybe pretend I'm not one of part of the community.

There's no way I can take this skin off.

I am always gonna be black.

That's the first thing you're gonna see and that's the last thing you're gonna remember.

So for me, it's not the same.

And I know that several of my friends feel the same way, not that I'm speaking for the entirety of the community because that would be wrong, but, some of the, depending on who you speak to and what their positionality is in life, depends on what they're gonna answer that question with.

I mean, even in the LGBT community, if you are a cisgender, gay, white male, you still can rely on being white and male.

- Mm-hmm.

- Yeah.

- Hah!

- Yeah, that's true.

- Yeah.

- You can still rely on that.

And they will still have a better choice and a better chance.

- Yeah.

- Than I do.

- Better opportunities.

- Mm-hmm.

- I think that a lot of our hatred comes from, because it was, I was laughing about it yesterday, but we were talking about, you know, cultures and how everyone associates people with certain stereotypes and I'm like, "You know, not all Indian people get along".

I mean like, I think you can attest to that.

We've got different states, different countries, but who caused you the most harm in your life?

And do the people that remind you of certain traumatic events, are those the people that you choose not to like or you want extreme boundaries against?

If someone intruded you, you talk about immigration and stuff like that.

If someone's down on their luck and is unemployed and sees somebody that's working that's an illegal immigrant, are they going to despise them for taking away an opportunity they might not even be qualified for?

Probably.

- You just used the word for the first time, and we've been at this for 83 minutes.

It was "hate".

It's a word we've either consciously avoided or it just hasn't bubbled up until now.

Is that something that is pervasive within our feelings and our souls and our psyches?

- [Anna] In some cultures, in some communities, - It's one of the harshest words we can say, right?

- Right.

- Hate.

- And some of it becomes from your social media.

They keep throwing things out and bombarding us with the same hatred messages.

And it's very difficult to love someone who tells you that they constantly don't agree, don't agree, you should believe this way and they keep throwing things down your throat.

And then that hatred comes to those people to where you don't wanna have anything to do with them.

- Right.

- And you have that extreme cutoff, you're like, "Well, for the betterment of me so that I'm not having negative feelings towards them or angry feelings or not responding properly, we put that barrier and that fence and field up".

We're like, "Nope, you're gonna have to stay away.

I just can't deal with you".

Like you're friend, you're like, here's our our line, we've drawn the line in the sand and we just can't cross it any further because it is constantly being bombarded.

- Is hate like pornography that you know it when you see it?

According to the Supreme Court.

[chuckling] Or, is it easily defined?

- I think that you see this in politics all the time and you see it at the head of state level, right?

When- - Well, give me an example.

- Well I'm looking at President Biden, right?

And I disagree with all of, a lot of his policies, you know, and it's just because that's the platform that he runs on.

But as a human being, I wanna look up to my president and say, "Hey, I respect you 'cause I know it took a lot of effort to get to where you are and there's some reason that people really like you and put you in your place".

But, and then we have our representatives in congress and that sort of thing and they have, and I had been fortunate enough to meet and talk to some of them, and they'll go into office and they're trying to work with our president, with peers and that are largely Democrat when you can't even get a word in edgewise when the opposite side is in power.

And part of that is not necessarily unreasonableness, I don't think President Trump was trying to be unreasonable, - But what about hate?

- And I don't think President Biden's trying to be unreasonable.

- Coming back to that word, hate.

- Hate comes from you're instead of sticking to the issues, we're trying to trap your children, we're trying to bring up all these things that could ruin your children's lives and it's less- - Do you get that comment?

- It's funny that you bring this up.

My husband and I have been having this debate.

So I was raised, you do not hate, you may strongly dislike, hate is a very powerful word.

And so, I've taught my kids that and they actually, my husband disagrees.

And my five-year-old called my husband out on saying he hated something the other day.

And anyway, so I don't hate that comment.

I do think that it is very subjective.

What is hate?

I don't think it is what the Supreme Court defined pornography as.

[laughing] I think it's super subjective.

And I think each one of us would define hatred in probably very different ways with some common themes.

But I see hatred in a lot of the legislation that's being presented for exclusion of people and is truly legislation of hate.

Of course- - Are hate and fear intertwined to you?

- I think they're very intertwined and I think, I think fear breeds hatred.

And that's why I think if we can, if we can address the fear, the hatred will dissolve.

I mean I grew up being afraid, for lack of a better word, of people who were different from me in ways such as, I mean race.

I didn't have African-American friends and I sort of had the stereotype of African Americans and I was afraid of going to the projects or, you know, the bad side of town.

And of course now I realize, I understand more, that it's not that in subsidized housing that people are inherently bad and lazy and drug addicted.

Yeah, there's these huge structures in place and these incredibly complex processes that trap people in cycles of poverty.

And if you wanna really good book to read on that, "There Are No Children Here" by Alex Kotlowitz, totally changed my view.

And so then, and I don't think I, I didn't have hatred in my heart, but I definitely had a strong negative feelings.

- A fear, misunderstanding?

- And definitely fear.

Definitely fear.

And I'm not saying that's completely gone, 'cause I'm human and I'm fallible, but it definitely, definitely decreased it.

- Bilar, you've been in this country 13 years?

- 19.

- 19, 19.

You pointed out in an earlier conversation we were having that when you're not born in an area, there are a lot of things you just don't know that people project on you that you should know or, "How come you don't know?"

And that can lead to a lot of misunderstanding, both sides, right?

- No, definitely.

It's very interesting because even not only with people who are not Latinos, but also within Latinos, because yeah, people assume when they are having conversations that you know what you're talking about and if you make a comment or you don't make a comment, and you can see a lot of the times I'm quiet because I can't really relate, or I don't understand what people are talking about.

Yes, like last night you were talking about baseball or something like that.

Baseball is, [laughing] no, I was like, I can't really say anything.

Or sometimes when people, when we come to some meetings and they're like, "Okay, we are going, please introduce yourself and tell us what is your favorite football or you are a fan from which team, football team?"

And I'm like, I didn't grow up here.

I don't know anything about football.

I can say about soccer, but I can't.

So, and some people take it almost like offensive, is what I see, and again, even within the Latino community, when I came, I lived my whole life in Colombia.

I came to this country, I started learning about immigrants, Latino immigrants in this country and how different we are and how we couldn't understand each other because we use different Spanish and learning about all the struggles of the immigrant community and even using the right terminology.

Yes, like when you mention now like illegal immigrants, for me at the beginning I was like, "Yeah".

Then when I started working with immigrants and everything, for me now when somebody says illegal immigrants, hits me.

Yes, it's nobody's illegal.

Undocumented immigrants or here illegally.

So things like that.

But, and still I've been here 19 years and I'm still learning and trying to navigate and it's interesting every time you go to different places, different environments, share with different people, again you feel like, "Oh, I'm not from here".

[laughs] Yeah, still something different.

But always, and I tell my girls this, yes, when I, we came, my oldest one was 16, so she came older, was more difficult for her to accommodate or acculturate.

For the other one, she was four.

So she grew up here.

So she's more American in a lot of things.

But I always tell them, "Don't be all the time in the side of feeling like everything that is happening or people who are talking to you, don't feel defensive".

I couldn't almost come up with a word.

"Feel, be always open and take advantage of the moment to have a teachable moment".

So instead of, "Oh, no", example again, "Oh, she said illegal immigrant, how come she's?"

No, it's a moment to say "We don't use that word because we feel this way".

Because then if you, and I think also that we see a lot of that is, people feel and talking about black people, talking about LGBTQ, talking about Latinos.

"Oh, they said that because I look Latina".

And probably that person didn't even look or think you were Latina.

Or, "They are saying that because they didn't talk to me very well because I'm", even with your example with the patient, yeah?

"Oh, it's because I'm LGBTQ and now this disrespecting me.

He doesn't understand".

Take that moment to teach that person, to inform that person that way.

So you can't really get, not all the time you get along with that and sometimes you get a backlash.

And then I say, "Okay, then is when you be defensive and if you have, you have to be offensive sometimes, not offensive, but responding".

[laughing] - But assume virtuous intent.

- Yeah, exactly.

- You know, assume that that person is saying something coming from a good place.

- Fiaz, you've been in this country 35 years, you have seen a lot happen in this country since you moved, immigrated.

And you've heard hatred discussed.

- Yes.

- And thrown - Yes.

- Toward you.

- One of the things that amazing, I'll come to that one, was when coming from the east and having lived in Europe, the lesson we can learn is from the sports.

You know, die hard fans, they go each and another wearing colors and their everything, the game is over, before party and after party, they're all going in peace, right?

Why can't we have, why is it only either red or blue?

You only watch the red channels that give you the red, only watch the blue channels.

That's where the polarization is.

If it's just like a sports team, yeah, it's a different team.

And then politically, I do not know why there's so much of pull from one side to the other.

Even the workplaces have become such that, oh, this group, they watch that TV, this group watch that TV.

So right there, you know, the inner feelings that they may for the time being, they may treat you well because you are in that environment.

But other than that, in their hearts, you know that, you are are either conservative or you are liberal, whatever that label is.

But hatred, as she said, stems from the fear.

And that leads to, unless and until, so, and also the label, me being a Muslim, it was synonymous with terrorism.

And unfortunately that went to the extent where, as we know, Chapel Hill to be one of the most liberal place.

We had three of our own children, which were, they were my, I know them personally because they worked with me in doing volunteer work for dental services and so forth.

They were just taken because of that hate.

So hate has and the ending is nothing but absolute chaos and problem.

So it has to be removed at a very early stage.

And that could only happen while, you know, here we are with different mindset, different ideas, but we are able to sit because you're creating that environment.

And this environment is that yes, you can speak your, your heart, you can speak your tongue, but still be this way.

And that is why we are going away.

But other than that, yeah, the children and everybody else, is, they're learning through social media and so forth that they're only watching that, they're not opening to other ideas that come into play.

And then they say, "Oh, it's actually not so bad".

I mean, before anybody come to the center, they always have fear.

We had people come from Fort Bragg, right?

They wanted to do, they came from UNC and Duke program.

So they were like, these guys were like, "So what are you gonna tell us?

I'm from Afghanistan".

I said, "Okay sir, don't, I look like me.

I'm against a fighting square.

Just relax".

Then they said okay, we had a meal together.

The one who brought, the sarge, he said they refused to come inside because of their ideas.

Because they were only experiencing that terrible situation in wherever they were.

They were applying that to over here, right?

This is not Afghanistan, this is America.

This is where we, yes, the same people that believe in those live here but in a very different environment, very different circumstance.

They have left with such good feelings that it's incredible.

I can show you how they have developed and the, one of the persons who is, you know, we train the, what do you call those medical people who?

Nowadays it has become part of every medical field, the spiritual care.

It's part of medical care.

- Chaplaincy.

- Chaplaincy.

Chaplaincy.

So the chaplaincy, they came in and they learned about the culture because they would like the demography's changing so fast that they said "We need to learn about this culture".

There was a forum where they said we want all of the people in case if a particular community you know, has a mass casualty, whether it be Christian, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, we all sat together on the table, we all expressed our own.

And so this is where they learn that this is how this culture run the show.

And we have to know that so that we can assist and help them.

That is where this, I never knew that he, after leaving chaplaincy, he became a, he went to Fort Bragg, he brought his soldiers.

He said, "I had such good experience, let's go".

And they came in and they had.

Of course, you know, we're supposed to take off the shoes.

Now these guys, by the time they take off the shoes, it takes 15 minutes.

[laughing] - No problem.

Put the booties on!

You know, put the booties on and you're welcome.

They were like, "Oh, really?"

- Yeah!

- There's always something.

- They even did not know that basic, but we opened that to them and that learned and they go with a completely different picture.

I think that is one part where we can really, and similarly, the LGBTQ, they have to not force upon it, but when it comes to teach them, let them know that you are, this is what you would prefer to go by.

I don't think so because I do not want to impose any of my culture, any of my beliefs on anybody.

It comes from within.

- I think there is also, I think, you know, after we've all sat and talked and we all have our views and stuff like that and things that trigger us.

But I think what we didn't mention over the last few years and what was probably a lot of this is displaced frustration because of what happened during Covid.

And I think people were dying.

It was an unknown disease and everyone was afraid.

And we had certain doctors saying these things.

We had nurses and doctors saying these things.

We've got pharmaceutical companies trying to create things really quickly.

Some people had bad reactions to, you know, it's just like there were so many unknowns that we decided to have a bunch of movements because of all this rage, this anger.

People were losing their jobs, people were committing suicide, people were getting sick and dying.

You know, some people that were wealthy are now homeless.

You know, those are the things that cause anger.

And we can't blame what we can't control and we can't control things like medicine and illnesses in a way that we can't play God, right?

And so let's blame the gay rights movement.

Let's make a big deal about race between, I think it was BLM and then it turned into Asian hate, you know, and stop Asian hate and it's just like all of a sudden we flooded the streets and you saw it in Australia, you saw it all over Europe, you saw it here.

People were trying to displace their fear and anger onto these movements that probably wouldn't have come up had we not gone through covid.

- It's a very good point and we're going to come back to Covid a little later with a little more specificity.

But I appreciate you bringing that up.

Lee, I'd like to go back to something you said earlier that really struck me because it's the first time I've heard it spoken publicly and you spoke it with passion.

And I asked this question from the perspective of being a white male who has interpreted civil rights as I grew up with the movement, watching it, my generation, seeing my hometown of Nashville on fire.

But you said you did not equate the rights of the LGBTQ+ community with that push with civil rights.

- No sir, I do not.

And I will tell you why.

Nobody's gonna turn a fire hose on me because I'm a queer.

Most likely nobody's gonna set dogs on me because I'm a queer.

But this right here, that's always gonna be a problem in certain areas.

- So do your friends in the African American community who disagree with you, are they appalled by what you say?

Do they understand what you're saying?

Do they say you're wrong?

- Most of them agree.

Some of them are also part of the LGBTQ community.

So the intersectionality there, it makes it hard at times to say, you know, which one takes priority, so to speak?

I have, you know, for reference you saw the picture in my family photo.

My wife is white.

I'm in an interracial, same gender marriage, but we don't have the same last name and we both work on the same campus and people will run across her and then they'll run across me and we realize that we can triangulate information because they don't realize that we will be married to each other.

'Cause why would that happen?

Because that just doesn't compute to some people.

And my wife is very much more of a big D democrat, like FDR style democrat.

And I'm just like, leave me alone and let me do my job.

[laughing] And when I say things like my blackness is something I can't take off, but I can always hide my sexual orientation if I need to, I mean that wholeheartedly.

I spent 11 years in the military during "don't ask, don't tell".

When I first signed up in 1994, 17, before my senior year of high school for the National Guard, the questions about homosexuality were blacked out with Sharpie.

When I went back in at 22 and I switched to the regular army component, those questions were not even on the form.

- [David] What was that like for you when you were a teenager?

- So I didn't really know, like everybody else knew I was, knew except me.

So I'm pretty sure like the high school reunions, money changed hands 'cause everybody's like, "Oh, we knew it!

I don't know why you didn't know", but you know.

- [Jake] Got a dead pool going?

- I think it did actually, honestly.

I swear I saw somebody slip a 20, but, like 17, 18 because I went straight to college because I was a national guard and college was kind of difficult because, you know, formative years finding your way.

All of us had these problems through undergrad the first time or second time, or third time, depending on how many times some of you go.

When I went back in the military at 22, I knew who I was.

I knew what I was, I knew what it was gonna be.

And "don't ask, don't tell" was so solidified at that point.

The concept was really propensity.

So if I went to my commander and said, "Hey, I just tried to marry a woman", they'd be like, "Oh yeah, you gotta go", you would think.

I tried this.

My first year on active duty was in Korea.

I was like, "I don't wanna go to work today.

It's snowing.

I'm done.

I'm gonna go talk to commander, open door policy".

I'm like, go in, report to the commander.

"Hey sir, you do know I'm one of those like dirty, nasty queers, right?"

He's like, "Isn't your truck deadline in the motor pool?

Isn't your stuff broken?"

I'm like, "Yes sir, but I'm telling you, they said don't ask, but I'm telling you".

He's like, "And isn't your stuff broken?"

It was subjective.

I'm very good at what I do.

I've always been very good at every job I've ever had.

I'm one of those people that picks up something and can do it within five minutes.

And they didn't wanna kick me out for that because they were like, "We're gonna lose a very good switch operator if we do".

Now, if I were a male in a combat arms unit, like an infantry unit, I'd have been gone.

I would've been gone.

They would've never questioned it.

You would've never seen me again after I did that.

But being female and a combat arms support unit, they're like, "Oh no, we ain't worried about you.

Just don't do nothing that's gonna get you in trouble".

You know?

- Thank you for that.

We're coming close to wrapping up this first session.

When we come back this afternoon again, there's going to be some topics for the, with a little more specificity.

But before we wrap up, I'm curious.

I know what it feels like for me.

I'm curious what you may have learned in the past almost two hours that you didn't know before, or that made you stop and think, "Yeah, thanks.

I hadn't thought of that.

Even if I still disagree with you".

- I think there's a, there's something that, I feel like I hadn't thought about as much and where we'll still agree to disagree, but you've got a kindness coming off of you at all times.

And when you speak, it's out of a heart for, it's not necessarily you have your faith, you have your ideals, you like to go hiking, a lot of things that most people like, but you have this, this desire to make sure nobody feels alienated in a way that they feel discredited as a human being.

- Yeah.

- And that's your heart.

And it's not necessarily, it's not necessarily pushing an agenda, it's just saying, "Hey, you're allowed to sit at this table regardless of what you dress like, how you talk, what you're, you know, gender might be in your mind, in how you identify yourself".

And it's just accepting people as a human being regardless.

And I think that's where you're coming from and I understand that and respect that.

- Wow.

Thank you.

Oh my god, I feel very seen.

- Fiaz.

- Wow.

- I appreciate the fact that you pointed out how Muslims were treated after 9/11.

As one of the first to go into Iraq, when I got back, we had a soldier that was so Middle Eastern, his last name was Iraq and he's like, "I can't go back over there".

And he didn't.

He shot himself in the leg to keep from going.

He is like, "I'm done".

- God!

- No, he, they hit him with malingering, dropped him some rank and he still went, but... - [Catherine] I don't think that was the outcome Nisha was hoping for.

[all chatter together] [laughing] - He shoulda gotten some mental health help and sent him home.

- [Fiaz] That's military jargon.

- Yeah, they basically said, "You faked an injury, you're done here".

- He's injured, not dead.

- Yeah, he's fine.

- That was I think what you were hoping?

- Yeah, no he's fine.

I still talk to him.

We're still friends.

I appreciate you being willing to point out the probably isolationism of being identified as a terrorist just because of your name and what you look like and who you worship.

- Yeah.

- [Lee] It's one of the things that I remember, like we did get culture classes before we went to Kuwait.

- Yeah.

- So it was a little bit easier for us because we were gonna be out in the desert, not on Camp Doha with everybody else.

So things like, like I had to tell my guys, "Hey friends, I know the Kuwaiti national guys are fixing our air conditioner in our tent.

Please do not give them ham slice and pork chop MREs to thank them".

- There you go.

- You're a jerk if you do that.

"Oh okay."

I'm like, "You sat in the same class I did".

But the optics sometimes are things that people forget about.

- Very well said.

- And like, I'm an academic, that's what I do.

And people were like, "Well why are you always conscious about what you say and when you say it to certain people or anybody?"

I'm like, "First of all, you should be conscious about what you say and when you say it to anyone, if you're a decent human being.

Being an academic, we're all smart.

We're all smart, but not all of us are kind".

And that's something that I have to remember when I am at work.

And that's why I'm always careful because the few people who remember what my former professions were will be like, "Well you were mean to that guy because he's Middle Eastern".

I'm like, "No, I was mean to that guy because he broke my equipment".

That's not the same.

[laughing] - Yeah, yeah.

- Ashley, anything stick out for you that you had not thought of before this conversation began?

- Nothing I think I had maybe not thought of things I probably hadn't put out in the atmosphere, but all like different ways that I internalize and think of things.

'Cause you know, I don't really travel in areas where that is widely, my viewpoint, is widely accepted, so a bit of like living in a closet.

[laughing] So I do do a lot of work in community and the communities I work with are heavily Republican.

But like I, you know, showing that love to each other, my version of that and really removing barriers for people is how I try to combat any of that word of hate or thinking that I would not like someone because of the way that they are or their belief or anything like that, is acts of kindness, so.

- [David] Jake, anything?

And look, there's no right or wrong answer here.

I'm just curious what people might've picked up - Personally or?

- Just yeah, personally.

- Oh, - Did you hear anything that surprised you?

- No, not really.

I mean, you come from Asheville, you like, you work there as much as I do 'cause I work a lot of overtime, like nothing really surprises you.

I would think that everybody got surprised me and her like locked in as soon as I got here yesterday and started talking.

Like most of the time you don't see the big country mountain man, country boy just like.

It's like walked in and I was like, there's my person.

- Aw!

- Hmm.

- That's so nice.

- This is who I hang out with in the real world, like outside of here.

I mean, like I said, my wife is white.

I mean, and their country, like Guilford County's full of her relatives.

So I mean if I drop my truck in the ditch, I know who to call to get me out three o'clock in the morning.

[chuckling] - Bilar.

- Nothing that I haven't heard, but something that caught me out of surprise or is when you ask about the word hate, because yes, we talk, we've been talking about different ideals and different things, but I never thought, and I was thinking hate.

Do I hate really to say I hate something or somebody?

I don't know where you get to that point because I think it's a very strong word, but I never really thought about it or I've never, yeah, look at- - Even when you said the word hate then, your fist.

- Yeah.

Because it's so strong.

It's like, - Yeah.

- When do you get to that point to really hate somebody or, yeah, because the ideals or I think sometimes you think, and you use the word sometimes just, "Oh I hate", but it's more about, "Oh, I hate I didn't do this or do that", but not to another person.

So I, it took me thinking, when do you get to that point to really to hate somebody?

And it exist I guess, but never thought about that.

- Fiaz?

- Hate does exist out there.

It's misinformation for most part.

And again, of course it attaches to the fear, but I think at least the people that I interact with, they do not hate, but they have experienced hate, to the extent that I told you.

- Yeah, it was- - Are being people killed just because of who they are.

And when I ask this question, when people visit our center, I ask, "Did you ever hear of a terrorist attack in Chapel Hill?"

They say, "What are you, crazy?"

[chuckles] I say, "Well, if it would have been the other way around, what would you term it as?"

In fact the people who were involved, they said they apologized and they said it should have never been narrated the way it was narrated.

Because when they actually looked at all the background, they were just mesmerized by those kids who had nothing but you know, worked with Habitat for Humanity.

They were the ones who introduced me and then taking out, you know, a dental truck downtown, just advertising here we are to help you.

And that was beautiful things that I learned from them.

And so it was the hate on the other side which actually diminished that.

But you know, spiritually, and the community came up much stronger that we need to go out and do more in order for people to understand us better.

- Anna.

- The thing that I kept resonating inside of me is that we are all human and we are, we all have our own opinions, but there's so much of us that if you look at the commonalities, there are things in us that all would connect us.

You know, you don't realize the spider web that would connect us all and hold us.

And when you get that education of why we are different and why we are who we are, you end up educating yourself, which decreases that fear.

And when you decrease the fear, you decrease hate towards that society and you bring down those walls.

You do have more of a acceptance of who they are as a human being.

And hearing, you know, Jake, how you, you're like, "Ah, I see a need, I'm gonna do it".

That's the goodness in all of us, that we are all good people at heart.

We have a desire to do good.

Whether it be from your God, from your religion, or whichever motivates you, there is goodness in you.

You know, it reminded me of a homeless man that I see almost every time when I get to a certain stop sign.

And he knows now that when he sees my car coming, he kinda keeps his eye at me.

You know, I don't give him money, but I roll down my window and hand him his care bag and it may be his care bag for the week because we have an innate part of us that wants to be good.

- An innate part of us that wants to be good.

[laughing] - Scary.

- I would agree with that, actually.

- Why are you looking at me?

- Caring.

- Why am I looking at you?

Because I was coming to you as the last person to speak about.

Is there something that you have heard in the past two hours that maybe you weren't expecting to hear?

Or is it, have you been surprised by anything and you may not have been and that's fine.

- Yeah, I don't think I've been surprised.

I think there's a lot of affirmation and I mean, to follow what Anna just said is unfair because it was so beautifully, beautifully stated and so heartfelt.

But thinking about Jake's story and also just the respect and grace and kindness with which everybody has communicated today, I think is just affirming that people are inherently good.

And how, what I, I think what I struggle is, how do we get this - To go further.

- Into our houses of government, you know?

And like why?

Like why is this- - Little by little of listening and maybe sharing with other people?

"Hey, we actually had a conversation where we listened, didn't necessarily change our minds, but there was a different way to communicate".

So maybe it's not as edgy, which gives space for possibility.

- Yeah.

- So thank you.

We'll take a break, have lunch, come back, talk about some specific topics this afternoon.

What a great way to start.