>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, A POWERFUL LEGACY AND ICON OF BLACK BUSINESS ENDS WITH THE FOLDING OF NC MUTUAL.

AND, AS PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN MARKS ONE YEAR IN OFFICE, WE'LL COUNT THE WINS, THE LOSSES, AND WHAT'S NEXT FOR OUR DIVIDED NATION.

STAY WITH US.

♪ WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM.

I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

AFTER NEARLY ONE AND A QUARTER CENTURIES, AN ERA HAS ENDED WITH THE ANNOUNCED CLOSING OF NC MUTUAL, THE GIANT CORNERSTONE OF BLACK WALL STREET.

IT WAS IN 1898 THAT A BARBER NAMED JOHN MERRICK AND HIS FRIEND A PHYSICIAN NAMED ERIN MOORE JOINED WITH SEVERAL OTHER BLACK BUSINESSMEN TO FOUND THE NORTH CAROLINA MUTUAL INSURANCE COMPANY IN DURHAM.

NOT LONG AFTER, CHARLES SPALDING JOINED MERRICK AND MOORE, AND THE 3 WOULD BECOME KNOWN AS THE TRIUMVIRATE BUILDING NC MUTUAL INTO THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN DURHAM, A BACKBONE OF THE BLACK MIDDLE CLASS, A PROGENITOR OF BLACK BUSINESSES THROUGHOUT THE NATION AND THE LARGEST AFRICAN-AMERICAN LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY IN AMERICA.

TODAY WE EXAMINE THE NORTH CAROLINA MUTUAL STORY TO UNDERSTAND THE VITAL ROLE OF BLACK OWNED BUSINESSES, I WANT TO WELCOME.

DOCTOR HENRY MCCOY DIRECTOR OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP AT NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL UNIVERSITY.

DOCTOR MCCOY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

YOU RECENTLY PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN THE ASSEMBLY TITLED HOW THE FALL OF NC MUTUAL HURT BLACK AMERICA.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT TITLE.

WHY DID YOU TITLE IT IN THAT WAY.

>> WELL, I THINK YOUR INTRODUCTION GIVES A GREAT EXAMPLE OF REALLY JUST HOW IMPORTANT NC MUTUAL WAS TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY, NOT ONLY IN DURHAM, BUT NATIONWIDE.

AND DID THE TITLE REALLY REFLECTS THIS IDEA OF YOU KNOW OVER THE LAST HALF CENTURY OR SO WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH BLACK BUSINESSES AND WE'VE SEEN THE DECLINE OF THOSE WE'VE SEEN THEM CLOSE, AND SHUT DOWN AND NC MUTUAL WAS SUCH A HUGE FORCE IN THE COMMUNITY.

I THINK THAT IT'S HARD TO SAY THAT ITS CLOSING DOES NOT AFFECT THE BLACK COMMUNITY BOTH DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY, AND SO THE TIME TO REALLY REFLECT THIS IDEA OF NOT REALLY AN INDICTMENT OF NC MUTUAL REALLY THE BROADER SOCIETY AND UNDERSTANDING HOW WE LET THESE BLACK BUSINESSES SHUT DOWN.

>> YOU SAY HOW WE LET THESE BLACK BUSINESSES SHUT DOWN WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY WE LET?

WHO ARE THE WE?

>> WELL I THINK WE ALL HAVE SOME SOME ROLE IN THIS.

YOU KNOW BACK IN THE DURING SEGREGATION, BLACK BUSINESSES GREW TO BE PRETTY SUSPENSION THE COMMUNITY LARGELY BECAUSE AFRICAN AMERICANS DIDN'T HAVE ANY PLACE ELSE TO GO.

COULDN'T GO ANY PLACE ELSE.

SO REALLY WAS KNOWN AS THE GOLDEN ERA OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP FOR THE BLACK COMMUNITY WAS REALLY RIGHT BEFORE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

SO WHAT HAPPENED AT THE INTEGRATION IS THAT THERE WAS AN EXPECTATION THAT THERE WILL BE 2 WAY STREET FROM AN ECONOMIC STANDPOINT, BLACKS WILL GO SHOP IN WHITE ESTABLISHMENTS, WHITES WILL COME AND SHOP AT AFRICAN-AMERICAN ESTABLISHMENTS.

BUT THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.

LARGELY IT BECAME ONE WAY ECONOMICS, WITH BLACK MONEY LEAVING OUT OF THE COMMUNITY GOING TO THE WHITE COMMUNITY IN AN IDEAL WORLD WE WOULD HAVE SEEN THAT SHARING PROSPERITY IS SO, WHEN I SAY 'WE LET' WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING IS THAT AFTER INTEGRATION WHITE BUSINESSES REALLY SAID WAIT A MINUTE THIS MONEY FROM THE BLACK COMMUNITY IT'S SOMETHING WE WANT SO THEY ALREADY HAD ADVANTAGES FROM THE ACCESS TO CAPITAL AND USING THAT TO CREATE NEW PRODUCTS AND NEW SERVICES TO MARKET TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY REALLY PULLED, THE BLACK MIDDLE-CLASS AWAY FROM BLACK BUSINESSES SO WHEN I SAY 'WE' I REALLY THINK ABOUT THE IDEA THAT WE ALL HAVE TO BE VERY CONSCIOUS ABOUT WHERE WE SPEND OUR MONEY MAKING SURE THAT MONEY IS CIRCULATING THROUGH ALL KINDS OF COMMUNITIES.

>> AND IN THAT WAY IT SEEMS LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS EVEN THOUGH THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE NAIVETE BACK THEN THAT WE THAT BLACK BUSINESSES BLACK OWNED BUSINESSES WOULD BE EQUALLY FREQUENTED BY NON-BLACK PEOPLE HERE WE ARE IN 2022.

ARE WE STILL HAVING THE SAME NIGHT THAT HEY OR IS THERE A DIFFERENT CHALLENGE THAT IS FACING BLACK OWNED BUSINESSES.

>> PART OF IT IS JUST I MEAN THIS HISTORIC DISCRIMINATION, FOR EXAMPLE, WE SAW DURING THE RECENT RECESSION ASSOCIATED WITH COVID-19 HOW FOR EXAMPLE, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHEN THEY YOU KNOW INSTITUTED RECOVERY AND THE PAYROLL PROTECTION PROGRAM.

HOW WAS THIS DISCRIMINATED AGAINST A LOT OF AFRICAN AMERICAN BUSINESSES AND SO WE SAW A LOT OF BUSINESSES CLOSED DOWN WE STILL HAVE HAVE POLICIES AND AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE THAT THAT HURT THE OVERALL COMMUNITY, THERE WAS A NAIVETE THIS WILL BE A 2 WAY STREET.

BUT I THINK THAT IT WAS SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF FOLKS HAD HOPED FOR WHENEVER INTEGRATION CAME ABOUT AND SO I THINK TODAY WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A REMNANT OF THAT IT TAKES A LOT TO CREATE A BUSINESS TO GROW BUSINESS TO BE A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS AND SO A LOT OF TIMES THOSE THINGS THAT ARE MOST IMPERATIVE FOR THE COMMUNITY, THE BLACK COMMUNITY HAS HAD TO FIGHT, HAVE BEEN DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN ORDER TO GET THOSE THINGS AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT REALLY WE'RE SEEING NOW.

WE'RE SEEING OVER TIME JUST MORE AFRICAN AMERICAN BUSINESSES SHUT DOWN AND I THINK THE KEY WITH THIS PARTICULAR STORY LOOKING AT NC MUTUAL INSURANCE IS THE IDEA THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST BLACK BUSINESSES THAT WE'VE EVER HAD FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

NC MUTUAL REALLY FOR THE 20TH CENTURY WAS THE LARGEST BLACK OWNED BUSINESS IN THE WORLD.

SO HOW DO WE LET GET BUSINESS FROM A STANDPOINT OF WHETHER IT BE HOW THE GOVERNMENT INTERACTS WITH IT OR OR PROVIDE SUPPORT OR HOW WE AS A COMMUNITY, HOW SOCIETY ITSELF DOESN'T LOOK AT THIS AS SOMETHING THAT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE LAST AND INCREASES THIS ON GOING LEGACY THAT CREATES MORE BUSINESSES SO I MEAN IT'S JUST BEEN A CRITICAL PART OF THE FABRIC OF BLACK AMERICA FOR SO LONG THAT IS A SHAME THAT IS CLOSING.

>> IT DEFINITELY IS AND ONE OF THE CRIPPLING EVENTS FOR INSEE MUTUAL I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THIS IS IN THE NARRATIVE AND HOW MUCH IT OUGHT TO BE IN THE NARRATIVE WAS THE CASE OF FRAUD AND MISAPPROPRIATION BY AN INDIVIDUAL WHO DEFRAUDED THE COMPANY HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT THE NARRATIVE YOU THINK.

>> I THINK IT'S CERTAINLY IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF THE MORE RECENT YEARS IN THE FINAL YEARS, I MEAN IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT'S A PART OF A OF THE CHALLENGES THAT NC MUTUAL FACED OVER TIME SO NC MUTUAL IS ALREADY FACING THESE HEADWINDS AGAIN JUST FROM THE WAY ECONOMIC INTEGRATION ONE WAY THE BLACK MIDDLE CLASS BEING PULLED INTO THE CONSUMERISM WHITE AMERICA, THE WAY WHITE AMERICANS DIDN'T RECIPROCATE.

THIS LAST KIND OF ACT THIS 34 MILLION DOLLARS THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY DEFRAUDED FROM THE COMPANY REALLY WAS KIND OF LIKE A NAIL IN THE COFFIN, BUT I WILL SAY THIS.

IF YOU REMEMBER BACK IN THE 2008 RECESSION WITH THE HOUSING CRISIS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE THERE WAS A WHOLE LOT OF COMPANIES, INCLUDING INSURANCE COMPANIES LIKE AIG AND OTHERS WHO MADE SOME PRETTY BAD BETS AND LOST TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY.

AIG WAS BAILED OUT TO THE TUNE OF A 150 BILLION DOLLARS FROM THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

MANY OF THE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS THAT WHITE OWNED AND WHITE LED WERE BAILED OUT AS WELL.

34 MILLION DOLLARS THAT NC MUTUAL WAS DEFRAUDED FROM IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE IS REALLY PEANUTS COMPARED TO THOSE LARGER SUMS, SO IT AGAIN SHOWS HOW THE RESPONSE TO THESE CRISES ARE DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON WHOSE IN THE LEAD ROLE.

>> IT CERTAINLY IS AND AS WE REFLECT ON THE FALL, I THINK IT'S SO IMPORTANT WHICH HE SAID ABOUT POINTING OUT WHAT OTHER COMPANIES.

NOT BLACK OWNED BUT BUT THIS HAPPENS TO BUSINESSES AND THERE ARE BAILOUTS AND WE DO THE BAILOUT AND THEN WE MOVE ON AND SO CERTAINLY IT SEEMS AS THOUGH NC MUTUAL COULD HAVE BEEN HELPED.

>> YOU KNOW I THINK WE SEE THAT ACROSS THE BOARD AGAIN I COME TO THE MOST RECENT IN THIS PANDEMIC AND THE COVID-19 IMPACTS.

SO MANY LARGE BUSINESSES THAT ARE WHITE OWNED WERE ABLE TO GET ACCESS TO PPP PAYROLL PROTECTION DOLLARS ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.

SOME OF THOSE COMPANIES EVEN ADMITTED VERY EARLY ON THAT THEY DIDN'T REALLY NEED THE MONEY BUT BECAUSE IT WAS THERE THEY COULD GET IT AND IT WAS GOING TO BE FORGIVABLE THEY CERTAINLY WANTED TO GET THAT ACCESS.

MINORITY BUSINESSES, PARTICULARLY AFRICAN AMERICAN BUSINESSES DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THAT CAPITAL EARLY ON AND ABOUT 41% OF BUSINESSES SHUT DOWN WITHIN THE FIRST 3 MONTHS OF THE PANDEMIC AND SO WHAT WE HAVE IS THE CONTINUATION OF DISCRIMINATORY POLICIES AND THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THOSE.

EVEN IN THE SECOND ROUND THE PAYROLL PROTECTION PROGRAM WHICH IS ACTUALLY SET UP SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF CAPITAL NEEDS FOR UNDERREPRESENTED MINORITY BUSINESSES WOMEN AFRICAN AMERICANS AND OTHERS.

EVEN WHEN YOU STUDY THAT, THOSE DOLLARS WERE NOT PUT INTO THOSE BUSINESSES AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND SO EVEN WHEN CONGRESS HAS SAID THIS MONEY IS SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS POPULATION THAT MONEY HAS NOT GONE INTO THOSE COFFERS AND SO NO ONE CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT ACCESS TO CAPITAL.

>> THAT'S RIGHT AND YOU KNOW WE HAVE JUST ABOUT ONE MINUTE LEFT IN THIS SEGMENT, BUT YOU FREQUENTLY REFERRED TO A REPORT THAT POINTS TO THE DOWNWARD SPIRAL.

BLACK AMERICA YOU KNOW HEADING TO 0 WEALTH.

WHAT COULD THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DO TO HELP AND I KNOW THAT THAT'S LOADED, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT CAN I DO FOR BIT BLACK BUSINESSES TO HELP TURN THE TREND AROUND.

>> I WILL SAY THIS I'M ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS IS COMING OUT OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS THAT AS PART OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL PASSED BACK IN THE FALL, THERE WAS A CLAUSE IN THERE FOR THE MINORITY BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AGENCY WHICH MADE IT A PERMANENT AGENCY.

IT HAD TO BE REAUTHORIZED EVERY YEAR AND SO NOT ONLY MADE IT A PERMANENT AGENCY, BUT IT ALSO PROVIDED A LOT OF CAPITAL AND WE HERE IN RTP JUST ADDED A A MINORITY BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AGENCY SITE ON RTP CAMPUS AND SO I THINK THAT IS A WAY TO START.

WE NEED TO BE BUILDING BLACK BUSINESSES FROM THE GROUND UP AND I THINK THAT IS A START AND IT CERTAINLY COULD ALWAYS BE MORE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE INSIGHTS, DOCTOR HENRY MCCOY.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

ONE YEAR INTO HIS PRESIDENCY AND THE PRESS HAS SEIZED ON JOE BIDEN'S MISERABLY LOW APPROVAL RATINGS.

ACCORDING TO PEW RESEARCH, JUST 41% OF AMERICANS APPROVE OF THE JOB PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IS DOING WHILE 56% DISAPPROVE.

5.38 RAN THE NUMBERS ON SEVERAL POLLS AND THE NUMBERS WERE CONSISTENT.

SINCE THIS TIME LAST YEAR APPROVAL HAS FALLEN FROM 54% OF AMERICANS WHO APPROVED AND 35% WHO DID NOT TO NOW JUST 41% OF AMERICANS WHO APPROVE AND 53 OF PERCENT OF AMERICANS WHO DO NOT AND NOT A LOT OF LOVE FOR VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS EITHER THE LA TIMES REPORTS HER POLL NUMBERS SHOWED A 38% APPROVAL RATING AND 53% DISAPPROVAL.

HOW COME OUR PANEL LAYS IT OUT I WANT TO WELCOME JOURNALIST.

MARY C. CURTIS OF THE EQUAL TIME PODCAST, POLITICAL ANALYST STEVE RAO AND ATTORNEY HAROLD EUSTACHE OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY GOP.

SO LET ME START WITH YOU MARY.

WHY ARE BIDEN'S NUMBERS IN THE TANK?

ARE THEY IN THE TANK?

>> WELL, YES, AND NO, I BELIEVE THAT EVEN THOUGH WE JUST HAD REPORTS AND WE'VE WRITTEN IT UP IN ROLL CALL WHO I WRITE FOR THAT WE'VE HAD A STRONG ECONOMY 5.7% GROWTH HISTORICALLY STRONG AND ALSO WE SEE THAT HE'S GOTTEN THE INFRASTRUCTURE, BILL AND THE RESCUE PLAN PASSED BUT WHAT VOTERS SEE, THE 2 THINGS RIGHT NOW ARE ONE WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF THIS PANDEMIC AND AFTER A LOT OF HOPE THAT ONCE WE HAD THE VACCINE WE WOULD BE COMING TO AN END, WE SEE THESE VARIANTS COME UP, WE SEE SOME OF THE ANTI-VACCINE GROUP AND DISINFORMATION AND MISINFORMATION AND PEOPLE FEEL STUCK.

THEY WANT TO BE OUT THERE.

SO HE'S THE PRESIDENT AND SO HE'S GETTING BLAMED FOR THAT AND ALSO EVEN AS I SAID THOUGH THE ECONOMY IS STARTING TO COME BACK AND THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS LOW.

PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT INFLATION.

THEY'RE GOING TO THE STORIES THEY'RE SEEING SOME EMPTY SHELVES THEY'RE SEEING DESPITE THE FACT THAT FOLKS ARE GETTING RAISES THAT INFLATION IS BEATING SOME OF THAT UP AND EVEN THOUGH HE'S MAKING SOME STRIDES ON THE SUPPLY CHAIN AND HELPING TO BOOST MANUFACTURING.

PEOPLE ARE SEEING WHAT THE EFFECT IS AND LET'S FACE IT IT ALWAYS IS THE ECONOMY.

WELL, YOU MENTIONED INFLATION AND I THINK THAT'S A BIGGIE HERE.

HAROLD, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THOSE RATINGS AND WHY?

>> IF YOU LOOK AT HIS POLL NUMBERS MONTH AFTER MONTH REALLY IT WAS AUGUST OF 2021.

WHEN THEY WENT DOWN, THAT WAS AFGHANISTAN.

I MEAN IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS NUMBERS TAKEN NOSEDIVE AFTER INNOCENT PEOPLE ELECTED HIM BECAUSE YOU KNOW, HE SAID HE'S GOING TO PROVIDE THIS SORT OF STEADY LEADERSHIP.

AND IT HASN'T PANNED OUT AND REALLY HAS KIND OF BEEN CONSISTENT.

HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING TO REALLY IMPROVE THAT EVEN IF YOU LOOK AT THAT TWO HOUR PRESS CONFERENCE LAST WEEK WHERE HE HAD THIS SORT OF ISSUE AGAIN WITH RUSSIA SAYING IT WAS AN INCURSION OR INVASION.

I MEAN THOSE SORT OF SLIP UPS DON'T GIVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CONFIDENCE SO I THINK IT'S LIKE MISS CURTIS SAID I THINK IT'S THE ECONOMY, THE INFLATION NUMBERS AND PLUS SOME OF HIS ISSUES ON FOREIGN POLICY AS WELL.

>> WELL, THAT'S THAT'S IT.

I THINK WAS WHAT I WAS HEARING, YOU SAY IS THAT EVEN THOUGH THAT YOU HAVE SOME THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING LOCALLY.

THOSE ACTIONS THAT HAVE IMPACT INTERNATIONAL THOSE FOREIGN POLICY THINGS AFGHANISTAN AND NOW RECENTLY RUSSIA.

I REALLY INFLUENCING PEOPLE'S OVERALL IMPRESSIONS.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND STEVE?

>> YEAH, WELL FIRST OF ALL, NORMALCY.

I THINK WHEN HE WAS SWORN IN AND MARY CURTIS DID A GREAT JOB TALKING ABOUT THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANTED STABILITY.

WANTED NORMALCY AND HE GOT OFF TO A GOOD START.

HE GOT THE COUNTRY VACCINATED, TODAY WE HAVE 200 MILLION VACCINATED, 80 MILLION WITH BOOSTERS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE VACCINATED THAN WHEN TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT, ALTHOUGH THE VACCINE WAS IN ITS INFANCY AT THAT POINT.

AND THEN HE GOT THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL PASSED THE 1.95 TRILLION DOLLAR INFRASTRUCTURE BILL HE GOT THE AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN PASSED AND HE GOT SOME OF THESE GOOD THINGS DONE.

BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS HE HAS SINCE THEN LOST POLITICAL CAPITAL WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY.

THE PARTY IS DIVIDED MODERATES AND PROGRESSIVES WHICH HAVE MADE IT HARD FOR HIM TO GET LEGISLATION PASSED LIKE THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, THE FREEDOM TO VOTE ACT, JOHN LEWIS ACT THE BUILD BACK BETTER PLAN AND THE VARIANTS HAVE CHANGED, YOU KNOW, SO WE KNOW HE DECLARED A YEAR AGO LAST JULY THAT WE WERE GOING TO BE FREE FROM THE PANDEMIC AND THAT SET EXPECTATION SO HIGH AND THEN IN JULY THAT'S WHEN WE REALLY SAW THIS YEAR HIS NUMBERS REALLY GO DOWN BECAUSE OF AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE OF THESE VARIANTS AND SO THE FINAL THING, I'LL SAY IS FOREIGN POLICY WHICH YOU MENTIONED THE BIDEN PRESIDENCY REALLY HASN'T HAD A CLEARLY DEFINED FOREIGN POLICY.

WE HAVEN'T WE STILL HAVE CHINA DOING A LOT OF THINGS TO ENDANGER DEMOCRACY.

YOU TALKED ABOUT RUSSIA, WE STILL HAVEN'T LIFTED MANY OF THE TARIFFS THAT WE HAVE HERE FROM CHINA AND AND DEMOCRACY WITH UKRAINE RUSSIA AND DEMOCRACY IN THE U.S.

SO I THINK WHAT BIDEN HAS TO DO IS HE HAS TO DO A BETTER JOB OF HOLDING MORE PRESS CONFERENCES.

THE GREATEST DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS BEEN GREAT COMMUNICATORS, JOHN F KENNEDY AND BARACK OBAMA.

YOU HAVVE THE PULPIT.

YOU CAN USE THAT PULPIT TO TELL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OF THE GOOD THINGS THAT YOU'RE DOING.

LOW UNEMPLOYMENT, VACCINATING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE GETTING OUR COUNTRY BACK.

TO WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE AND FIGHTING INFLATION.

>> SO HE NEEDS TO COMMUNICATE BETTER AND HE'S GOTTEN A LOT OF TROUBLE AND EVERYBODY THOUGHT THAT HE WOULD FOR HIS COMMUNICATION WHETHER THAT'S SOMETHING HE SAID, OR A GOOF OR A GAFFE OR SOMETHING AND WE'LL GET INTO IT A LITTLE BIT LATER ABOUT HIM SAYING THINGS AND MAKING PROMISES ALL THE WAY ALONG AND PEOPLE HOLDING HIS FEET TO THE FIRE.

BUT I DO WANT TO GET YOU ALL'S UP THE BACK ON KAMALA'S NUMBERS.

SO MUCH KIND OF EXCITEMENT WHEN SHE FIRST WON THE TICKET ALONG WITH BIDEN BUT NOW MARY, HER NUMBERS ARE LOW AND PEOPLE ARE ALSO ASKING WHERE IS SHE?

WE'RE NOT SEEING KAMALA HARRIS.

>> WELL, IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING BECAUSE WE ALL KNEW SHE WAS HISTORIC AND SHE WAS GOING TO BE JUDGED DIFFERENTLY.

FIRST WOMAN VICE PRESIDENT BLACK WOMAN, WOMAN OF SOUTH ASIAN DESCENT.

DAUGHTER OF IMMIGRANTS.

AND YOU DIDN'T SEE REPORTING THIS FOCUSED ON VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE OR VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.

AND SHE HAS BEEN GOING OUT MORE BUT SHE'S THE VICE PRESIDENT AND SHE'S COVERED SOMETIMES AS THOUGH SHE IS THE PRESIDENT.

AND SHE TOO IS HER BEST MESSENGER AND SHE HAS BEEN OUT MORE BECAUSE YESTERDAY AFTER WE JUST THIS WEEK SHE WAS IN HONDURAS AT THE INAUGURATION OF THE NEW PRESIDENT A WOMAN AND IT HELPS THAT SHE IS GOING TO THESE COUNTRIES WHERE IMMIGRATION PROBLEMS ARE STARTING AND SHE'S DOING THAT WORK.

DID WE SEE IT COVERED?

SHE IS COVERED DIFFERENTLY NOW SHE HAS SOME REALLY THINGS THAT SHE HAS TO TAKE CARE OF.

HER STAFF WAS THERE WAS SOME INSTABILITY WITH HER STAFFING AND SHE IS TRYING TO GET THAT ON BOARD.

SO YES, THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT SHE HAS TO TAKE CARE OF, BUT ALSO I DO THINK SHE HAS TO BE COVERED IN A WAY THAT'S FAIR AND SHE HAS TO BE OUT THERE.

AND IT'S A TIGHT ROPE BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT, YOU KNOW THE PRESIDENT SHE IS THE VICE PRESIDENT YOU CAN'T REALLY OVERSHADOW HIM AND HER JOB IS TO IMPLEMENT HIS POLICIES AND SHE HAS SO MANY TOUGH THINGS ON HER PORTFOLIO FROM VOTING RIGHTS, IMMIGRATION REFORM, UNION RELATIONS SO SHE IS ONLY THE FIRST YEAR SO I WOULD SAY LOOK AND SEE.

BUT WE KNEW THAT SHE WAS GOING TO BE UNDER THE MICROSCOPE.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU MARY THAT SHE'S COVERED DIFFERENTLY AND THERE'S DIFFERENT EXPECTATION FOR A VARIETY REASONS.

HERE YOU SEE THIS WOMAN IN THIS POWERFUL LEADERSHIP POSITION AND IN SOME WAYS I THINK THAT PEOPLE DON'T INTEND TO BUT THEY ACTUALLY HAVE SOME SORT OF FIRST LADY EXPECTATION OF HER, EVEN THOUGH SHE'S THE VICE PRESIDENT SHE'S NOT THE FIRST LADY AND THEN THEY THEY'RE PUTTING THIS HARDSHIP ON HER BUT HAROLD WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT KAMALA'S PERFORMANCE AND ABOUT THE OPINION OF HER PERFORMANCE?

>> YEAH, I THINK THE WAY THAT SHE'S COVERED I THINK IT'S EASY TO SAY BECAUSE SHE'S A WOMAN BECAUSE SHE'S AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND INDIAN-AMERICAN DESCENT, BUT I THINK PART OF IT IS BECAUSE BIDEN WAS SWORN IN AS THE OLDEST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY AND SO I THINK WHEN PEOPLE THINK ABOUT HER THEY THINK WELL SHE'S ONE HEARTBEAT AWAY AND SO I THINK THERE IS EXTRA ATTENTION ON HER BECAUSE OF FRANKLY THAT'S JUST THE AGE OF THE PRESIDENT AND I THINK THAT GIVES HER THAT SORT OF -- OBVIOUSLY SHE LOOKS DIFFERENT THAN EVERYBODY IN THE POSITION BUT THE AGE OF THE PRESIDENT MATTERS.

ALSO THINK I THINK THE ISSUES INTERNALLY IN HER IN THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT REALLY I THINK ARE BEING UNDERSTATED I MEAN SHE HAS HAD MAJOR ISSUES WITH ALL OF HER STAFF AND THE THINGS THAT HER STAFF HAS SAID ON THE WAY OUT THE DOOR ABOUT WORKING FOR HER AREN'T GREAT, AND THAT'S UNFORTUNATE TO HEAR AND I KNOW THAT THESE PEOPLE THAT WENT TO WORK FOR HER WERE VERY EXCITED I THINK LAST YEAR TO BE ABLE TO BE IN THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT.

SO THERE'S SOME SORT OF ISSUE THERE.

I DON'T KNOW I KNOW EVERY DETAIL ABOUT IT.

BUT I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HER APPROVAL RATING I THINK IT'S SEPARATE FROM THE PRESIDENT, I THINK PEOPLE CAN PARSE THOSE 2 THINGS OUT.

>> WELL, MAYBE THE MAYBE A BOOK IS COMING OUT AND IT WILL BE REVEALED IN THE FUTURE BUT BUT I HEAR YOU ON THAT.

STEVE, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS, YOU KNOW HERE SHE IS YOU KNOW GETTING GETTING THESE DIFFERENT RATINGS GETTING DIFFERENT COMMENTS ABOUT HER STAFF AND HER PERFORMANCE, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> WELL MY THOUGHTS ARE THAT WHEN BARACK OBAMA SELECTED JOE BIDEN AS THE VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN ACCEPTED IT SAYING THIS WILL GET THIS GOING TO BE A FULL PARTNERSHIP AND IN FACT, I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO CALL YOU PRESIDENT OBAMA I'M GONNA CALL YOU BARAK, AND IT WAS A GOOD PARTNERSHIP BECAUSE HE GAVE THE VICE PRESIDENT THAT TIME REAL SIGNIFICANT RESPONSIBILITIES ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES, PARTICULARLY FOREIGN POLICY AND AND DIFFERENT THINGS LIKE THAT AND VETERANS ISSUES.

SO I THINK KAMALA'S GREATEST CHALLENGE IS SHE NEEDS MORE ASSIGNMENTS THAT ARE VISIBLE THAT SHOW THAT SHE IS REALLY DOING THINGS ON FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND LIKE MARY CURTIS SAID THAT COULD BE COVERED.

YOU KNOW, ONE EXAMPLE WOULD BE BIDEN IS SPENDING SO MUCH TIME BEING A SENATOR STILL OR VICE PRESIDENT WHERE HE'S SPENDING SO MUCH TIME HOSTING BREAKFAST GOING TO CAPITOL HILL HE COULD DELEGATE THAT TO THE VICE PRESIDENT, AND IT REALLY BE MORE THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF AND SAYING MY JOB ISN'T TO SPEND ALL MY TIME IN THE SENATE BUILDING WHERE I SERVED FOR 4 YEARS BUT TO ACTUALLY BE IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

IF YOU WANT TO DO SOMETHING YOU COME SEE ME AND SEND THE VICE PRESIDENT THERE.

SO I THINK HE NEEDS TO GET HER IN MORE VISIBLE PARTNERSHIP.

ROLE.

IS SHE IS A HEARTBEAT AWAY FROM THE PRESIDENCY, AND SHE IS GOING TO RUN.

>> YEAH GET HER AS THAT PARTNER AND NOW SEE THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DELIVER ON ANOTHER PROMISE MADE DURING THE CAMPAIGN SHOULD HE GET TO SEAT A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOW SUPREME COURT JUSTICE STEPHEN BRYARS, HAROLD YOU GOT A LOT OF ATTENTION RECENTLY WITH A TWEET THAT YOU SENT OUT RESPONDING TO LEGAL CORRESPONDENT DAN ABRAMS AND YOU SAID BIDEN PICKING A BLACK WOMAN IS GREAT.

BUT ANNOUNCING IT AHEAD OF TIME UNDERMINES THOSE JUDGES, I FOR ONE NEVER WANTED TO BE PICKED BECAUSE OF RACE I WANTED TO BE CONSIDERED THE BEST, PERIOD.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT HIM HAVING SAID 'I'M GOING TO PICK A BLACK WOMAN FOR SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.'

>> OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S GOING TO BODE WELL FOR WHOEVER GETS PICKED.

>> I CALLED MY MOM ABOUT THIS AND WANTED TO GET HER PERSPECTIVE.

I SAID, WHAT DO YOU FEEL AS A BLACK WOMAN?

HOW DOES THIS MAKE YOU FEEL?

SHE ACTUALLY SAID WHAT I SAID SHE ECHOED THE SAME THING I SAID.

SAID, IF HE WOULD HAVE SAID I'M GOING TO GO OUT THERE AND SELECT THE BEST PERSON I'M GOING TO LOOK AT EVERYBODY AND SELECT THE BEST PERSON BUT HAD IN HIS MIND.

HE'S GOING TO PICK A BLACK WOMAN IT REALLY GIVES CREDENCE TO THAT PICK AND REALLY BOOSTS THAT PERSON, BUT WHEN YOU SAY I'M ONLY GOING TO SELECT A BLACK WOMAN.

YOU PUT THAT PERSON IN THE POSITION WHERE THEY'RE HAVING TO I THINK TO ANSWER AND TO SORT OF TAKE ALL THESE OF THESE BLOWS FROM THE MEDIA.

I JUST I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE BECAUSE THE PERSON HE IS GOING TO PICK WILL BE QUALIFIED.

I MEAN THEY'RE GOING TO BE A FANTASTIC PERSON.

I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE FOR THAT PERSON.

EVERYTHING THAT WE WANT AS BLACK FOLKS IN THIS COUNTRY IS TO BE TREATED EQUALLY.

IT'S TO BE ON AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD NOT HANDPICKED BECAUSE WE'RE BLACK BUT WE CAN DO ANYTHING ON AN EQUAL FIELD, I THINK THAT SORT OF THE ISSUE I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE HE MADE THAT PROMISE.

>> I HEAR YOU.

MARY I WANT TO GET YOUR FEEDBACK ON THIS.

>> WELL I HAVE TO WEIGH IN HERE BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT THIS WHOLE PREMISE OF THE DISCUSSION IS INCORRECT, A SENSE THAT REPRESENTATION AND MERIT ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

FOR EXAMPLE, RONALD REAGAN WHEN HE WAS RUNNING SAID I'M GOING TO PICK A WOMAN FOR THE SUPREME COURT.

HE MADE THAT PROMISE.

AND HE DID.

AND NOBODY FELT THAT SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR WASN'T QUALIFIED.

BUT THEY JUST FELT THAT IT WAS TIME FOR REPRESENTATION.

THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO WOMAN, NO BLACK WOMAN.

MEANT THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING NOT WRONG WITH THE POOL OF CANDIDATES, BUT WITH THE PROCESS THAT ONLY SAW WHITE MEN AS QUALIFIED.

LYNDON JOHNSON, PRESIDENT HE PUT THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN ON THE FEDERAL BENCH.

CONSTANCE BAKER MOTLEY.

THERE'S A NEW BOOK OUT ABOUT HER.

SHE WAS OUTSTANDING, AND SHE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED FOR THE SUPREME COURT.

BUT WASN'T BECAUSE IT WAS A CEILING PLACED ON THAT.

SO I FEEL THAT YES OF THE WOMAN HE CHOOSES IS GOING TO BE EDUCATED TALENTED AND YES QUALIFIED.

WHAT'S WRONG ISN'T THE FRAMING IT'S THE FACT THAT OUR SOCIETY DOESN'T SEEM TO SAY THAT REPRESENTATION AND MERIT ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE AND LET'S BE CLEAR, BARACK OBAMA NEVER SAID I'M GOING TO PUT A LATINA ON THE COURT, BUT HE CHOSE SONYA SOTAMAYOR BECAUSE SHE WAS GREAT AND QUALIFIED, BUT EVEN THEN WHEN HE DIDN'T SAY THAT THAT DID NOT STOP CONSERVATIVES, WHITES AND OTHERS FROM SAYING THIS IS A AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PICK.

THIS ISN'T ABOUT MERIT.

SO WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD HAVE SAID THIS OR NOT, THIS WAS GOING TO NEED A BLACK WOMAN.

AND LOOK AT THE QUALIFICATIONS OF ALL THE PEOPLE ON THE SHORT LIST.

THEY'RE AMAZING.

AND WHEN COMPARED TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY ON THE COURT.

>> IT'S DEFINITELY A GREAT SHORT LIST, BUT THAT FRAMING HOWEVER IS GOING TO COLOR PEOPLE'S OPINION AND THAT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE.

THAT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE.

I APPRECIATE ALL YOUR COMMENTS.

STEVE, I WISH WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN TO YOU STEVE RAO, HAROLD EUSTACHE AND MARY C. CURTIS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING OUT TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM TODAY.

>> PLEASURE TO BE HERE AS ALWAYS.

THANK YOU.

>> I WANNA THANK TODAY'S GUESTS FOR JOINING US TODAY, WE INVITE YOU TO ENGAGE WITH US ON TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM USING THE HASHTAG #BLACKISSUESFORUM.

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FOR "BLACK ISSUES FORUM", I'M DEBORAH HOLT NOEL, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

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