- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, society is changing and the ideals of the church are challenged to keep pace with its impact on community, the eradication of environmental racism, and its views on mental health.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

Though primarily places of worship, black churches have long played prominent roles in African American communities offering services beyond worship, such as job training programs family support, community safety, and many of their pastors have advocated for racial equality.

But our society is changing and the ideals of the church are challenged to keep pace.

And while there's interest to separate church and state in the country, the separation has not applied to the black church.

We welcome our guests to weigh in on the importance of the black church and its changes undergoing.

Joining us today, we have Reynolds Chapman Executive Director of Durham Cares Pastor Herbert Reynolds Davis of Nehemiah Church in downtown Durham, and the Reverend Gand Taylor of St. Ambrose's Episcopal Church in Raleigh.

Welcome.

During the Civil Rights Movement, churches took on a significant role.

African American churches were vital to the success of the Civil Rights Movement.

They hosted mass meetings, they were meeting points for rallies and marches, and provided much needed emotional, physical, moral and spiritual support.

Reynolds, I would love to talk to you as the executive director of Durham Cares.

I know that you're working on a pilgrimage curriculum that allows its participants to dig deep into the church's impact.

Tell us a little bit about this initiative and why we need allies like Durham Cares.

- Yeah, so the pilgrimage curriculum actually started with a program that we do at Durham Cares called The Durham Pilgrimage of Pain and Hope.

And it's a weekend immersion where a cohort of about 20 people journey through the city to go to different sites around the city to learn about the history and reflect on how Durham's story, our own story, and God's story are woven together.

And we go to places and the black church is a really significant anchor and theme throughout the pilgrimage.

We go to places like the Stag Plantation where the enslaved African community met to worship.

And that was an act of resistance against depression.

We hear from civil rights leader, Ms. Virginia Williams who was resisting against the segregation that we saw in Durham.

And the black church was really significant in being a place where that was organized.

And Reverend Douglas Moore was one of the main organizers of that sit-in.

And then we go through many different parts the Hay Tide community and even up until today, and we have, Dr. Davis is one of our panelists on the pilgrimage and he shares about how the history of Durham informs how we live faithfully now.

And so the pilgrimage we've been doing since 2016 but during the pandemic, we decided that we'd like to offer this pilgrimage for people even when they can't go on it in person.

And so it's a pilgrimage video curriculum.

We partnered with Mastermind Productions to record documentaries of the different sites throughout the pilgrimage and we're gonna accompany it with a Bible study so that people can learn about the history of Durham and reflect on how it connects to their own story and God's story through this through a Bible study, through their church through their small group and things like that.

- Yeah, it's a wonderful pilgrimage a wonderful experience for those that participate in it.

Pastor Davis Reynolds mentioned that you are part of the curriculum.

The Nehemiah Church is right in the heart of downtown Durham where much of the pilgrimage occurs.

What impact does the church have in this community, in your opinion?

- Thank you for having me.

I think the impact of the church is vital.

Like you said, we're located in downtown Durham.

There are a plethora of churches that are downtown Durham a number of them anchoring churches that I would call that.

But I think the work of Nehemiah, we have been in that in downtown area for about 20, well, all of our 26 years.

But in that particular location for about 23.

And so our particular work in downtown Durham has been helping those with food, clothing.

Pre pandemic, we actually, for a couple years ran a day center that allow people to have access to computers and get out of the elements.

And then also a number of the service providers primarily homeless providers, would, could come in and meet with people in one of our spaces.

So our effort, our work at Nehemiah really has been how do we attempt to challenge what is and to try to offer not just a suggestion but try to offer hope and then also effort to bring about transformation.

One of the things as a part of an industrial area or IF organization, Durham Can, we talk about the world as it is and the world as it should be.

And so part of our focus is how can we try to make Durham what it should be?

A place that as it prospers, as it continues to grow and develop like we're seeing at astronomical levels, how does it rise and grow in a way that everybody in the city of Durham is able to experience some benefit from the growth?

Cause the challenge that we are facing, it's always been this way I think since I've been in Durham, you have the idea that people succeed, people prosper, but there have been pockets that have been lost or left behind.

But I think over the past several years, and especially now it's not just groups being left behind but we also have the groups who are prospering prospering at the expense of those who used to be left behind.

Yeah, so what we try to do is say how can we help encourage people?

How do we help try to meet those needs, whether it's food, clothing, connecting people to the various services, trying to offer help but then also how do we challenge those who are benefiting?

How do we challenge infrastructure and systems?

And people in power to actually say, Hey we need to be concerned about the least of these.

- I wanna bring Father Taylor into the conversation.

St. Ambrose's is not too far down the road in Raleigh.

Different location, but same story of impact.

And so I would love to hear about what St. Ambrose is doing in this space of community.

- The Black church has always stood historically and currently in this space of not only ministering to those who are members within the walls but also providing services to those outside of the walls of the church.

And the same is true at St. Ambrose's.

In 2020, St. Ambrose launched a new community-organizing power group called One Wake.

This is in Wake County.

Currently there are 46 religious and nonprofit institutions that have an aggregate membership of 50,000.

We knocked on hundreds of doors and talked to thousands of people asking about the community's needs and concerns.

And we heard about job force development, education, affordable housing.

We've been working with elected officials and those running for office by having community forums to ask if our local municipality, which is Raleigh, would follow the lead of Wake County.

We met with Wake County commissioners and encouraged them to start a homeowner care fund.

Because when we look at property taxes in Wake County and Raleigh, particularly in the historically Black communities, property taxes have gone up as much as 400% in a four year period.

And so this has caused gentrification, and people who bought their homes, because this is the only place they were forced to live during segregation now cannot afford them because of exhorting property taxes.

And so we're working with the municipalities to make sure that funds are available so that people can keep their homes.

So these are the types of things we are doing to hear the community's needs.

And then also showing action by working with elected officials to change people's realities, as Pastor Reynolds talk about, Pastor Davis spoke about.

- Yeah, racially segregated churches have existed within the United States since before it became a country, and they've lasted through post-slavery era and well into modern day age that we live in today.

There are many reasons for the history and the continued prevalence of racial segregation in US churches, including widespread and systemic racism, as well as geographic and denominational differences among the various religions.

Churches like St. Ambrose and the AMiA Church have made it part of their mission to eradicate environmental racism and economic injustice.

Father Taylor, back to you.

Talk to us about the work that your congregation is doing with the Healing Podcast.

- St. Ambrose's is really ground zero for environmental racism.

It's where the city of Raleigh dumped raw sewage for 70 years, it served as a defacto trash dump.

And then this is the same area Raleigh's known for Black people to live during segregation.

Flooding has been a problem and continues to be a problem, In 2021, St. Ambrose has received a national grant for initiative we call the Healing Pod which is in three phases.

The first is a podcast that deals with the history of environmental racism in the Black community of Raleigh and how St. Ambrose has responded.

A matter of fact, you can visit our website, stambroseraleigh.org and that podcast will go live in the next few weeks.

The second is an Ethiopian inspired labyrinth.

A labyrinth is, in a Christian tradition, is a way of praying with your feet.

You walk and pray.

And then the third is the Healing Pod itself, and it's we're using therapeutic gardens and horticultural therapy to bring about mental and emotional health to the community.

We know, as we'll talk about later, that mental health in the Black community has not always been at the forefront.

So by inviting people onto our property, participating in the life and death cycle of plants, caring for plants, weeding, working with the licensed therapist, who is also horticulturalist, that this can help people deal with their own emotional processes, trying to bring mental health, mental awareness to those in the Black community.

- I love it.

It's a very interesting perspective and take on kind of that new church approach that I don't know has been explored as deeply before.

Pastor Davis, we've talked before, we've interviewed, and I recall our conversation around social justice and how detrimental the church's role is in actually seeing change.

Share with our audience the ways that your church, in particular, have been working to make some of that change happen.

- I think the church, the Black church is paramount.

I mean, it is the core, it is the anchor.

It is the place where, in many instances over history, Black people had to go to find strength, to find community and to meet needs that were not being met by systems that were in place within governments.

And so even with, you know, the passage of civil rights and things of that nature, it has not eliminated the need for the Black church to still be a clarion voice and still be one that challenges, challenges systems.

Because oftentimes, we have elected officials, people in power, they love to come to our church when it's time to get votes, but then they like to avoid our church when it comes time for accountability.

And so our churches have to be places where members, as Reverend Taylor said, members come and get ministered to.

They find words of hope, encouragement, words that keep them pushing and going forward.

But also the church has to be responsible to pastor or lead the community.

Because though there are people who may not dawn our doors to worship with us, they're still looking to the church to say, "Hey, I need help with this."

"Hey, I'm confronted and challenged by this system."

So the church has to have relationships that actually are in ways that can be utilized to bring about change, which means what?

Something that we always teach in Durham CAN and other IF organizations, we have no permanent enemies, no permanent allies, just permanent issues.

So the idea is, there are times in which the Black church may side with people in power about what's being done, but other times, the same people that we held arms with, we may have to challenge, challenge the decisions that they've made, challenge them to say, "Hey, you are doing some things that only benefit one prospering community or one sector of people."

So the Black church has to keep his finger on the pulse to be able to hear from people within and without, but then also keep that prophetic edge that says it is our job to stand up, to speak up.

We often talk about being the voice for the voiceless.

Well, that's only part of it.

I also think we have to be a place where we empower people that have no voice and help them to find their voice.

I think when the black church is only speaking on behalf of the voiceless, it carries with it this savior complex that can end up being problematic.

So what has to happen, I think, is not only do we hear from those who are affected by systems, structures, policies, and planning, but also, how do we encourage those people?

How do we empower those people to say, "Hey, we'll use our power to help get you to the table and we'll stand with you, but you have to speak.

You have to share your story."?

Because why?

What usually works is hearing people's stories- - [Person Offscreen] Uh-huh.

- That ends up transforming lives and so churches are places where stories are shared, stories are developed- - Yeah.

- But also where we are creating new stories.

- Yep.

- How do we work in a way to help create a new narrative?

- Right.

- Durham, Raleigh, the Triangle, there needs to be a new narrative that's not just about gentrification and prosperity, but a narrative that says these things are happening and certain people are benefiting, but there is a large group of people who are suffering- - [Person Offscreen] Yeah.

- And this is where the church has to stand up.

- Indeed.

I wanna bring Reynolds in.

One thing I love the most about DurhamCares is the beautiful relationship that you've built within the community, for example, with Pastor Davis and Nehemiah Church, telling the stories that Pastor Davis just talked about, the unheard stories.

How important is it to hear these stories and go be, and how far does it go beyond the black church?

- Mhm.

Well, so much of the way that our country has told its history has not, has left so many stories out and the stories of oppression and, that have occurred have been left out and now we see this really strong resistance to it.

Now that, this I, that Critical Race Theory has become this organizing principle to many politicians and then what happens is they call everything Critical Race Theory, and you can't tell any history that is truth-telling, and we've been doing the pilgrimage for many years now and it's a great opportunity to just encounter these stories and encounter the truth about the wrong that has been done throughout our history by people who have created these racial categories of white and black and have called themselves white and contributed so much violence and oppression and now, with that strong resistance against that, we have to tell these stories and, particularly us white people, have heard very little of these stories and with the pilgrimage, we're trying to find ways that people from many races can come together and hear the powerful stories of resistance and justice that the black church has told and has done and also to be honest about the wrong that white people have done and confess and repent and be transformed.

- Yeah.

And I'm a firm believer that, in telling your story, there's healing.

In a study conducted prior to the pandemic, it was found that 90.4% of African Americans reported using religion as an escape when dealing with mental health issues, but the black church hasn't always been readily accepting of embracing the mental health needs within our community.

Question to you, Father Taylor.

You've coined this as the "modern day leprosy."

Elaborate on that.

- I invited Dr. Janee Avent Harris, who's a professor at East Carolina University, and her research is around the black church and mental health and as she was giving some results from her talking to different people, people were saying these are black Christians, that, whenever someone is dealing with mental illness, you need to stay away from them.

You don't know if they will snap on you.

You just don't know how they will act.

And so, as I was reading and listening to these response, and it made me think about how people dealt with leprosy during the time of Jesus.

The nation Palestine, lepers, which was a skin disease, were quarantine a particular area.

As they went out into public, they had to wear bells that announced that, "I am a leper.

Stay away.

Stay away."

And so that, how lepers were treated in that day, reminded me, given these responses of how some of the black Christian community respond to mental health, certainly the church needs to do more in speaking about mental health.

Many times, we find religious people, when it comes to mental health and mental wellness, we'll simply say, "Pray it away."

- [Person Offscreen] Mhm.

And yet, when someone is diagnosed with cancer or if you fall and break your foot, most people will go say, "See a doctor" and not pray it away, and so we need to have that same reaction with mental health and wellness, that people need to go and talk to trained experts, psychologists, and psychiatrists, to get the help they need, the same way you would go get help when something physically happens to you.

- Mhm.

I agree.

You know, just because you can't see it doesn't mean you're not suffering from it.

Pastor Davis, how does the church's social justice work impact the severity that mental health conditions have on us as individuals?

- I see that as a dual impact 'cause I think people who are fighting in just, in social justice efforts, that are challenging systems, these individuals need therapy and help to be able to handle and deal with the trauma that they are fighting against.

So I think social justice warriors need to understand the importance of their own mental health and I think that is something that has been lost.

And many times in our communities, the people who have been fighting for change and transformation, they have, they're left to deal with their own, quote-on-quote demons, on their own.

They deal with them through, you know, various levels of addiction.

So that is something that needs to be understood, but then also, as Father Taylor has stated, when you're deal, when people are dealing with mental health issues, there are many times in which people of color dealing with mental health issues don't get the same treatment.

As those who are, who are not people of color.

And so, how many times do you hear about the young man who's having a mental health breakdown, the police are called, he's shot and killed because he's black.

But the white man is able to be sent somewhere for treatment.

So the idea is that social justice and mental health is very important on those two levels.

The people who are engaged in the daily fights, are they doing the thing necessary to help themself handle it mentally?

But then also, the people in the community, who we're finding are more and more people dealing with it, are they being handled and treated in a fair and equitable way?

And many times it is not.

And so it is that much more important to have therapists of color who people can relate to, who are connected to our churches, who have, are people of faith.

So they can hear that it is all right for me to go see somebody, because it's ultimately important, not just to my now but to my future.

- Yeah.

Reynolds, I'd like to think of the pilgrimage as generational healing work.

What impact does that have on mental health and the outlook of, of healing from that?

- One of the things that we're able to do with the pilgrimage is, at the same time, go into the communal systemic things that have caused so much unhealth, mental unhealth, the violence and the oppression that have made people need mental health support.

And at the same time, people go on a personal journey when they do it.

They look at themselves and say, "How does this connect to my own story?

How does this connect to my own need for healing?"

And I think it's really important to have these opportunities like Pastor Davis was saying, to not just plow in to do work together, which we need to, there's much work to do, but also to have time to reflect and say, "How can I go through my own healing?"

And there have been some great writers who have talked about how we bear in our body, the impacts of racism, Resmaa Menakem's, "My Grandmother's Hands" is a powerful story that talks about how we bear that in our bodies.

And so I think that it's important to do that work at the same time, whether it's the pilgrimage, or whatever kind of journey you're going through, I've seen just a powerful transformation when we address the systemic realities that make us unhealthy, and address our own personal need for healing.

- Yeah.

Last question to you, Father Taylor.

Someone's out there and they've been hurt by the church, and they're not sure if church is the right way to go.

What would you say to them?

- I would say if, If you have been hurt by the church, that is certainly unfortunate.

And there are so many resources, not only to mental health, but overall health.

And so if you're dealing with any type of mental situation, there's of course the National Mental Health Alliance.

There are certainly local organizations as well.

The most important thing, is to go and get the help you need, whether wounded by the church or not, get the health you need, help you need, because your health matters.

- Quick Round Robin, I would love for Reynolds, for you to share how people can find out about the pilgrimage, Father Taylor, about the podcast, and then Pastor Davis, how to find Nehemiah Church.

So, quick Round Robin, I think we've got about a minute left if you guys would love to share that information.

- Yes.

So if you are interested in the pilgrimage, you can go to durhamcares.org, and learn about it there.

I'll also mention that we are having Lisa Sharon Harper come to speak at a breakfast for us, and she wrote an incredible book about some of these topics called "Fortune" where she looks at her own history and our country's history, and sees how we can seek reparations through that.

So find out more @durhamcares.org.

- Wonderful.

Father Taylor.

- "The Healing Pod" Go to our website, stambroseraleigh.org to hear about the podcast The Labyrinth and The Therapeutic Gardens.

- All right.

And Pastor Davis.

- You can find our church online and visit ncc.com or on Facebook, Nehemiah Church Cogic.

- Wonderful.

Reynolds, Chapman, Pastor Davis and Father Taylor, thank you for your continued work and dedication to re-energizing the black churches within our community.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- We also want to thank you for watching, and invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum, or listen at any time on Apple iTunes at Spotify, or Google Podcasts.

For "Black Issues Forum" I'm Kenya Thompson.

I'll see you next week.

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