- Shaped by Sound Combines performance and conversation to capture the depth of the North Carolina music scene.

Superchunk is an indie rock institution within the Triangle music scene.

Back in 1989, two of their members founded the label Merge Records to release and promote the band's own music.

And over the years, Merge became very successful, and Superchunk did too.

But despite that growth in time, their trademark frenetic energy is at the center of each show.

Today on the "Shaped by Sound" podcast, we're in conversation with Mac and Jim from Superchunk.

Mac, Jim from Superchunk, thank you so much for being on Shaped by Sound.

- How you going, thank you.

- It's going well.

Now, you both live in Durham or Chapel Hill?

- I live in Durham, yeah.

- I live in Chapel Hill.

- Yeah.

- Oh, man.

Competitors.

- Yep, just over the border.

- Well, at the end of my street, it says, "Welcome to Chapel Hill."

So it's sort of like, you know.

- So you can pick and choose maybe which ones you chose?

- Jim's got a foot in both worlds.

- Yeah.

- That's right.

- I've got a tax base in one and a social life in the other.

- Uh-huh, that must be nice.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- So, I wanted to start out with kind of jumping into Mac, you're from Raleigh, right?

- I grew up in Durham.

- Okay.

And what was that, like as you were kind of growing up here in North Carolina, what was the music scene like for you and kind of how were you influenced by it?

- When my family moved to Durham in 1981, and my previous experience, which was in South Florida, was a world of, you know, mainstream like rock radio, album rock radio, which was pretty different then than it is now in the sense that you could hear a song by The Clash or Patty Smith or something on the same station as Molly Hatchet or whatever else on the radio then.

But when we moved to North Carolina, it was a whole different world in terms of what you could hear on the radio, which at age 13, you know, that's pretty much the only access to music that I had.

And college radio was really the reason for that, you know?

XDU and XYC and KNC when you could pick it up were just playing all kinds of music that I'd never heard before.

And you know, of course, in addition to that, once we got older, there were clubs, you know, sometimes shows at Duke and UNC that we could go to because they weren't in bars, but, you know, we couldn't really go to the Cat's Cradle or anything until we got a little bit older, but- - Right.

- You know, some of the venues, like the Cat's Cradle are still around.

- Of course.

- Obviously the radio stations are still around and there was a lot of great record stores.

- [James] Yeah.

- Which would, of course, you know, stock all the national titles that were coming out, but were supportive of local music as well.

- What was the Cat's Cradle like back then?

- Cat's Cradle the first time, when I first started going there, which at first was essentially trying to sneak into shows and hope that no one would notice.

Like, I would sometimes go like early and just hope that I wouldn't get kicked out for being- - Did you have a fake ID?

- 15 or whatever.

I actually didn't have one at that point.

- [James] We won't tell anybody you did.

- And sometimes, you could talk to them about, you know, can my parent be like a chaperone or whatever?

And sometimes, that would work.

Sometimes, you could just watch soundcheck and then you'd have to leave, like that kind of thing.

- [James] Hmm.

- But it was in a space on Franklin Street.

I don't even know what that space is now because it's changed a couple times.

I think it's a ceramics place or something like that.

- Is it like where the bookstore was?

- It was next to the store.

- Bookshop.

- Next to the bookshop on Franklin.

- It was tiny.

- Yeah.

It was maybe like 2 or 250 capacity.

But- - Do you remember who you were seeing in there?

- Yeah, and once I got into a band in high school, a band called Pneumatic Underground, like we got to play there a couple times opening for... We opened for, like Tommy Keene we got to open for.

I think The Pressure Boys there at a certain point.

But that's who we were going to see was bands like The Pressure Boys who were local.

And often, they were opening for a touring act.

And I remember some of the, this must have been an all ages show, because I remember seeing the Violent Femems there on their first big tour- - Wow.

- That came through.

And, you know, Violent Femmes, Joe King Carrasco, Tommy Keene, as I said.

The Replacements were a show that I could only watch a couple songs because my band was playing the same night at Rhythm Alley on Rosemary Street, though that Replacement show is a notoriously shambolic one, which I don't think they ended up finishing, but one of my more memorable times was I wanted to go see the Meat Puppets.

They were touring on Meat Puppets too, which they were playing on XYC and stuff.

And I knew I couldn't really get in, so I was hanging around outside and the Meat Puppets were just loading in.

And they said, "What are you doing?"

I was like, "Oh, I can't get in because I'm not old enough."

They're like, "Here, carry these guitars.

You can just pretend to be one of our roadies."

But of course- - How cool.

- The people at the door, Billy, who was working the door, like knew me.

So I felt a hand on my shoulder as I tried to walk past with carrying guitars.

And again, I think I got to watch a couple songs, but couldn't actually stay for the show.

But I mean, they just had so many great bands playing there.

The Hoodoo Gurus on their first album tour was one of the most memorable shows I saw there.

- Wow.

And Jim, who were you listening to kind of growing up?

- Emerson, Lake & Palmer.

- [James] Yeah.

- Steely Dan, Bruce Springsteen.

And then quickly Minor Threat.

- Nice.

- Hüsker Dü.

Minute Men, Replacements, all the classic punk rock of the early eighties.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

That's pretty incredible.

And feel like, so Jim, you were living in Massachusetts?

- I lived in Connecticut.

- [James] Connecticut, okay.

- And I met Mac in college, basically.

That's a long story short.

- Were you both in Columbia?

- No, I was in Connecticut.

- Okay.

- And I would go to New York to visit my friend, who was his roommate, or lived on the same floor in the dorm, and that's how we became friends.

And my first time coming down to Chapel Hill, I was just like, wow, this is where I want to be.

You know, 'cause where I grew up, I mean, there was nothing there.

I mean, it was beautiful, but there was no real culture.

- [James] Yeah.

- But it's what I kind of, you know, what I wanted, what I was hungry for.

- And Jim mentioned, you know, punk rock.

And at the age I was talking about where it was hard to get into clubs, the one place you could go see bands was all ages shows.

And actually Raleigh was more likely to have all ages shows at a club like The Brewery.

They had shows in like a roller skating rink over there where I think Black Flag played.

And you know, Duke campus in Durham actually did have some all ages shows at the coffee house.

So there were all ages shows that was more like hardcore bands.

- Gotcha.

It seems like that kind of is a trend throughout, no matter what generation it is, even when I was growing up, like for me to get into a younger show, it was like hardcore or I guess emo would've been then, but yeah, it seems like kind of the same same in a way.

Jim, so when Mac brought you down, like what was drawing you in?

Like, what was so exciting for you?

- I mean, it was just the availability and the access of music, of the music scene.

I mean, there were clubs, there was a street where people were walking on it, you know, going places, availability of the culture that resonated with me by reading about it and fanzines and books and hearing about it.

But it always just seemed to be kind of like this mythical place that just didn't really exist.

And then, you know, getting out of the car on Franklin Street in 1985 or something, it was eye-opening and, you know, I mean, yeah.

- And Mac, what made you want to bring him down here?

- [Mac] Oh, he had no say in the matter.

- We were a big group of people.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, it was sort of, again, we all met up up north in New York and Connecticut, but for me at least, staying in New York after college wasn't really an option in terms of whatever kind of job I could have gotten at that point.

And I was part of this music scene down here.

I wanted to come back and play music and be around my friends and live here.

So, there was just sort of this migration down here.

Jim and a couple other friends from up north also moved down at different times and lived down here.

It was cheap to live here at that time.

And you could play music in your living room or in your garage or whatever.

And yeah, it was an easy place to be.

- It definitely was cheap.

I mean, that's the thing that it's hard to, you know, explain to the youngsters now- - Right.

- It was very affordable, 'cause I was a high school teacher before, you know, in Connecticut, which the suburbs of New York City, it was not cheap.

- Right.

- You know?

So, it's a different world.

- Right, so kind of the landscape supported the artist.

- Yeah.

- Maybe in a way.

'Cause it's funny, you know, it's not really funny, but I look back on when you all were when Chapel Hill and starting to play music, and playing music with all these people, and it just seems like this incredible creative playground.

And I wanna know, like for you all, what that was like as artists, as like creators at a young age?

What was that like to be there in that time?

- I mean, it was fun.

I think when you're in it, you're just kind of like doing your life.

You know, you're working at the pizza place, you're working at Kinko's, you know, you're playing in bands, you're going to see other bands at house parties and things like that.

If you're finished with school, even though you have a job now, it kind of feels like, oh, this is like a new part of your life, you know?

'Cause while you have obligations, they're not the same kind of obligations that you have when you're growing up.

- Right.

- And so it's like you're...

I think that that's part of, kind of a crucial thing to be like, oh, I can design my life around, you know, playing music if I want to.

You know, that may not last forever, but you know, I'm at a point where like, I don't mind living in a house with a bunch of other people.

I don't mind having this kind of job as the only job that will allow me to go on tour.

You know, that kind of thing.

And so it's kind of the time in your life when you can do that, it's pretty exciting.

- Yeah.

Did you feel like you were onto something, or like as a group, there was something happening that was special?

- No.

- I would say no.

Not really.

I mean, like you said, you know, it's just when you're living in that moment, you don't have the luxury of the future to look back at.

You know, you're just there.

- Yeah.

You just wanna go to your job, make a few bucks, and go hang out with your friends and play music.

- Yeah, and so it was nice that there was some interest, there was enough interest to play a show and have people show up, but it wasn't like, oh my God, we've made it, you know?

- That was kind of like the dream to play music and have people be there to watch it.

Like, that's the thing, you know?

Even if you're talking like 50 people or something.

- Yeah.

- And I think the one thin that maybe we recognized at the time, or were striving for at the time was that we had, again, like Jim was saying from like reading and fanzines and things, or listening to the radio or going to see bands from other places, like we did have some role models in a sense of like, oh, like there's this scene in Washington, DC and they have this label that puts out local bands.

You know, there's this scene in Minneapolis, there's this scene in Boston.

And you could kind of see these other places, which are admittedly like much larger places, but think to yourself like, oh, like we could have kind of a cool thing like that here.

You know?

And I think that if you were going to see bands in someone's basement and the bands you're seeing are Paul Vo or Erectus Monotone or whoever, like really good bands, you're thinking, wow.

Like, there is something going on.

- Right.

Kind of feeding off of that a bit, when the scene that you all were in, and as it started to develop throughout the nineties and it started to maybe leak outside of the Triangle into North Carolina and just sort of southeast at large, what was it like for you all in a band that was kind of breaking into a larger audience?

- I mean, we were on tour.

You might be describing that kind of backwards for us.

because we were like leaving town to go play, you know?

We were playing all over the country pretty quickly.

I mean, we were lucky because we hooked up with a booking agent who was well established and had the juice to get us on tours and get us into clubs and get us in front of people.

- Right.

- So, we were gone a lot.

And we'd come home, and you come home and you just wanna rest.

And, you know, there were still things were going on here, but I felt somewhat disconnected from it a lot of the time just 'cause we were gone so much.

- Yeah.

- You know?

- Okay.

- You know, and you read about it.

- There was like whole eras that we missed.

- Yeah.

- Because you were on tour.

- Yeah.

But I think that like, there was a slight feeling when people started to write articles about Chapel Hill as the next whatever- - Right.

- That felt a little like, oh, someone needs a story.

- They need content.

- And so they're gonna like, kind of gin up this idea.

Even though, yes, all these bands were here, but as a band that was here, having it be described back to you from the outside felt kind of phony, you know?

But at the same time, we're adults.

Like, we can recognize, well, that's just what magazines do and that's what music papers write about is that kind of thing, scenes or whatever.

- Right.

- So you understand the need for that kind of story to exist 'cause they can't keep writing about Seattle or Austin or whatever.

But it did feel a little bit like you're trying to like fit a square peg in a round hole kind of thing just to have a story.

So I think that we looked at that with a little skepticism.

- Right.

- You know?

- [Jim] A jaundice die.

- Yes.

That's why I always said that.

- Yeah.

- I always said that at the time.

- So for you all then, was it just a nice place to be back home and rest and like just take time off and play and maybe have creative space and liberty to do whatever you wanted?

- Oh, for me, yes, yeah.

- Yeah, I think that when we were home was when we could work on new music.

I mean, we were making records pretty often and touring a lot for each one.

So when we were home, it was time to write new songs, but also sure, like work in the record store and go see other bands and hang out with friends and stuff.

- Yeah.

It seems like you were all also making music videos together 'cause when we were kind of trying to understand a little bit more of the aesthetic for what we wanted to do with the stage for the show, you know, you sent us over a ton of amazing music videos and you had a lot of them from that time.

What was it like to do that?

I feel like you were in almost the heyday of MTV really when things like that were on television.

So, I mean, it seems like that was another creative outlet for you.

- It was almost like you had to make music videos in order to become known outside of your area because MTV, but again, not that a video by a band like ours would get played on MTV proper.

We would get played on the one show that came on at like midnight and lasted for two hours once a week.

But, that's the reach of MTV.

MTV was such that it was worth it to have a video on 120 minutes in that time slot, you know?

And then if we knew that someone's band that we knew was gonna have a video on, like we would watch 120 minutes just to see like, what are they playing?

So you kind of had to make videos.

But we were really lucky.

I don't think any of us was like- - No, - Let's make a video.

But we were lucky that we knew creative people like Norwood Cheek and Phil Morrison and Peyton Reed, friends of ours, Alan Hervey, friends of ours who knew how to do that and wanted to do that for bands from around here.

- [James] Right.

- And so we had amazing partners in that they knew what they were doing.

- Yeah.

And they went on to create some very successful things independently.

- Of course, sure.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Also want to touch a little bit on, so Mac, obviously you're a co-owner of Merge Records.

Just turned 35.

- Yep.

- So you have sort of a unique perspective on the music industry as a musician and as an co-owner of a label.

As the methods of delivery for music has sort of evolved over time, how have you as artists sort of changed with it?

- I don't know that we've really changed what we do in response to how music is consumed.

I mean, I think that maybe everyone made kind of albums that were too long once CDs came out 'cause they're like, you can make an album that's 60 minutes long.

And so we have some records that are kind of long, but now we're back to like 33 minutes, which is like kind of the ideal length for a record.

But no, I think that maybe it's just because we've been doing this for a long time.

Like, we're not really... We don't really change how we approach the music part of it based on how people consume it, you know?

Now, the rollout for a record or how a record is released and those things change, you know, for the way labels do things.

But as a band, I don't think we've really changed our approach.

- Gotcha.

I'm wondering too is, I mean, as far as that goes, as far as the consumption side of it, how do you approach maybe live music now?

Is it the same as when you were kind of going through and touring like before?

- Kind of feels the same?

- Yeah.

- To me though, we have a lot more songs to choose from.

So it's kind of fun writing a set list now, especially if we have a new record out, then you're trying to incorporate songs from the new record of course.

But then you have 35 years of other songs to fit into that set list.

And, you know, I feel lucky that we can still tour and people will come see us.

And I think the fact is that a lot of people who come see us have been coming to see us for a long time.

It's amazing when we have new fans.

I love that.

It's great to see young people in our crowds.

That's pretty wild considering how old we are.

But, you know, I think that it's cool knowing that if you put a song in a set list you haven't played in a long time or that you've never played or that's just kind of obscure, there'll be people there that will really appreciate that because they've already seen you 10 times in Chicago before or whatever.

- Right.

- And so like, there's still something new for them to grab onto.

- Right.

But what is it like for those people that you can tell are maybe there for the first time?

- [Mac] I mean, you'll have to ask them what it's like.

- What is it for you?

- Hopefully- - Well, what's it like for you all I guess is the question, you know, to see that generation difference?

- I mean, it's gratifying.

I mean, I have images in my head of standing on stage and looking down in the last couple years and seeing like 14-year-old kids singing along to a song that's older than, you know?

It's weird, but it makes you feel like, well, maybe my life hasn't been a complete waste of time.

You know, that's all.

I mean, it's satisfying.

It's humbling too.

- Yeah, I bet.

I bet you it's a great feeling.

- It's awesome.

And I think that for the most part, I think that the internet ruined everything.

- Of course.

- But, I think that one thing that's interesting is that, you know, when I think about the bands that I wanted to go see when I was that age, they were mostly people that were my age or like slightly older, a little bit older.

I wasn't trying to go see a lot of bands that were putting out records before I was born.

- [James] Yeah.

- And so the fact that people can discover things now, and we see this with our own kids, discover things now that came out so long ago, but because of the way music is presented in the current like formats, they don't necessarily draw those same lines between what's super, like, they don't see old stuff as necessarily like, oh, like that's old dusty records that have just been in my parents' shelf or whatever.

Like, I don't need to listen to that.

Like, they kind of approach things in a much more egalitarian way, for lack of a better word.

It's in the sense of like, what's old, what's new.

- Yeah.

- And if they like it, they like it.

And to me, that's really cool.

- Yeah, well, I mean, I'm definitely one of those people, to be totally honest.

I grew up in the age of new digital music and being able to discover.

I didn't have to sift through just my dad's records or my own CDs.

There was a whole world of independent artists that I could go into.

- I went to see, just as an example, I went to see Built to Spill the other night.

- Right.

- He was a band that we played shows with in the nineties.

And, you know, they continue to make great records and they're awesome.

But I was struck that I was one of the older people in that room, and that doesn't happen, you know, very often at a show like that.

And I was like, wow, like how do these- 'Cause it's normally just I feel like people the same age as the band that you're seeing.

You know what I mean?

- Yeah.

- And I was like, whoa.

There's like teenagers here singing Built to Spill, which is awesome.

And of course they're amazing.

Like, why wouldn't they be there?

But part of me was just like, how do they even know about this record?

Like, how do they make this connection to this record that came out in 1994?

- [James] Right.

- You know what I mean?

That the band is playing and like are singing.

They're singing all the words.

- Yeah.

- That's really cool.

- Do you think it's because, you know, when you say like Built to Spill was making that record, they were making in their twenties, right?

Do you think it's sort of like the music kind of connects to the age?

- That's possible.

- Yeah, I mean, that's a great point.

It's just that normally, to me it's unusual that those kids would reach back to a band that was their age that long ago.

- Yeah.

- And still connect to it.

You know what I mean?

But, yeah.

- So, your album "Foolish" is 30 years old now.

And I did wanna kind of touch on what is it like now to be, say like on a world tour?

And back then, you know, you all were just making seven inch records in somebody's apartment or whatever, just trying to make records and put them out there.

What's it like to kind of go back and play these songs and play them all over the world versus, say, at the Cat's Cradle in Chapel Hill?

- Oh, I know.

And we played them all over the world back then too, kind of.

- Yeah, that's true.

- But kind of touching on that again, like, it seems like it has just as much relevance now too as it did, you know?

- Certain songs on that record are still evergreen.

Or not still, I guess.

They were popular and they seemed to have stayed popular or they resonate with the crowd.

I mean, it's something you can kind of feel without really understanding.

It's like certain songs just when you start playing them, you can feel the mood in the room change or the sound level goes up 'cause people are like- - People start walking out and you're just like, yeah, we shouldn't have played that one.

- Shouldn't have played that one.

Shoot.

- But surely, it's not, it's the opposite.

- No, I'm just kidding.

Yeah.

- That's good.

- No, I mean, I've forgotten the question.

- [James] Yeah, I guess it's just like, you know, - Well, I think it's... Well, to Jim's point, you feel a reaction in the room when you start playing certain songs.

And I think that at this point, again, we've toured so many times and played a lot of these places, even in places kind of far from here.

Like, we just did a tour, some shows in Spain.

There's people that saw us back then in Valencia, for instance.

But I think that what brings some people out now is that if they see, especially that you're touring for a record that came out when they were a certain age, they're like, oh, that's my favorite record.

Like, if I go see them when they're touring for "Wild Loneliness" or their last record, they might only play one song from "Foolish," for instance.

But if I see their band's touring to celebrate the anniversary of this old record, like I know I'm gonna get the stuff that I want.

You know what I mean?

So that's kind of like one of the aspects of doing a tour like that.

- Is it fun to like, revisit some of the songs that you maybe normally wouldn't play off of that record?

- Yeah.

I mean, even if it's...

Sometimes it's like, oh, what were we thinking?

- [Mac] There's a reason we don't play this song.

- There's a reason why we don't play it.

But then you have a chance to kind of maybe tweak it or play it with a slightly different way or something.

Make it better.

Or like, I mean, it breaks up not the boredom.

I said boredom.

I don't mean that, that's a negative word.

But it breaks up the monotony of playing the same songs over and over and over again.

- You've done it for 30 years.

- Right, so it's good to revisit old ones that maybe got neglected.

- So within this show, it's called "Shaped by Sound."

And we kind of want to identify, you know, how music can shape us as people, as communities, and you know, a state.

In what ways do you believe that you are shaped by sound?

- It's almost like it's hard to identify because music has been a part of my life since the beginning in the sense that, you know, we had my parents listen to music in the house, and my grandmother was a piano teacher and I played in the school band.

You know, it's really hard to separate because it's just kind of always there, you know?

But I think that in terms of going back that far, I think that one thing that hearing different kinds of music around the house, whether it was, you know, my dad's jazz records or his Led Zeppelin records, is that even if, let's say you're 15 years old and you're like, not into jazz yet, you're just into like the rock and roll that you love or whatever, that you hear on the radio.

You've been primed to be interested in that maybe later on.

Or like, you can have an ear for something that as you mature, you go like, oh, you know what?

Like, those records are really good actually.

You know, and I think that that is something that is interesting to think about in terms of like what you hear early in your life and then how it comes back to you later.

- Yeah.

Jim, do you have a response to that?

- You know, it's a difficult question.

- It is.

- 'Cause of like Mac said, I don't really think about it.

You're talking about like the physical experience of hearing things is what it sounds like you're talking about, like sound.

How does it shape you, and?

- [James] Yeah.

- I don't know, but it's something that if you're lucky enough to have it, you know, affect you that way, I think it's beyond the...

It is hard to express what's good about it in words, you know?

That's what makes it special is that it's not words, it's sound.

- [James] Right.

- So the feeling you get from it, it's hard to translate into words for me.

- I'm always amazed that, you know, because I think talking to people who are lucky enough to be playing music in a band as something that we do, you know, that we can still do, that's one thing.

But I'm always amazed when I meet people and talk to people who sound and music is something that has nothing to do with their job or like what they do all day or like a large part of their life.

But it's this other thing that's like, oh, like this is my retreat, or this is a thing that kind of saves me from all this other stuff I'm dealing with every day in my life.

And, you know, so to me, like that is a very powerful aspect of music or connection to bands or music scenes.

The people that aren't trying to do it to make a living or because they feel like a calling to like play guitar or something, it's just that like, it gives them something that they don't have in the rest of their life.

- [Jim] And it's bigger than entertainment.

- Yeah.

- It's not just, you know, something to kill time or to pass a pleasant hour.

It actually is some sort of kind of, I don't know.

I mean, I wouldn't say religious, but it fills some sort of space- - [James] Right.

- In other people's lives.

- And I think it's like a human connection - Yeah.

- In the sense that, I mean, you can get that I think from listening to records, but, you know, I'll travel to go see an artist now that maybe I think like, oh, this might be the last time I get to see this person play live.

You know?

And it's usually very gratifying, even if they're not at the peak of their career or they haven't made a record I like in a long time or whatever, it's still just like, oh, that is that person like a hundred feet away that wrote that song and now they're singing it right there.

That's kind of a unique thing with music.

- Yeah.

I had somebody kind of describe it to me as a universal togetherness in a way where you can tap into somebody else who you've never met before, and feel some of the things that they're feeling and hear some of the things that they're trying to say.

I guess to your earlier point, Mac, I'm one of those people that yeah, outside of this, you know, I don't write music, I don't make music, but to be at a live show is something that is a feeling that is almost, you know, incredible in a way because you are able to be amongst total strangers in a dark room and still feel these things and be with each other, and be happy that you're there for the most part.

And that's an incredible thing that we have that sort of untold and unsaid.

I want to touch a little bit on that you both still live in North Carolina.

You had chances to move outside of here and live totally opposite lives and do whatever you wanted to do.

And I feel like you've really supported a lot of musicians here and other artists.

For us as making this music show, I would like to tap into you all as creators and ask you what would you like to see more of as far as this music here, this thing that we have here?

How would you want to celebrate North Carolinian music if you can?

- Hmm.

Well, I think...

I mean, one thing that comes to mind is, you know, we have all these great rock clubs that really, I think for the most part, treat artists well and people like playing at these places.

You know, we already talked about the Cat's Cradle in Chapel Hill.

Of course, we just had the Hopscotch Festival in Raleigh.

You could see a lot of different bands and different venues there.

We headed the Carrboro Music Festival yesterday.

I went and saw some great bands play behind a coffee shop, like you can see bands in a lot of places.

I do sometimes wish that the programming at the local universities was more geared towards up and coming musicians from North Carolina and incorporated that more into their programs of like very prestige programming, but, you know, involved some more North Carolina voices.

- Gotcha.

From like a college radio scene or just from like an academic level?

- Well, you know, Carolina Performing Arts and Duke and NC State, I think they all have programs, you know, that bring great artists to play on campus at the various venues.

- [James] Yeah.

- And I really appreciate that.

It's wild.

Like, sometimes you just go like, I can't believe I'm sitting in Memorial Hall watching Herbie Hancock or whatever, you know what I mean?

Like, moments like that.

- Yeah.

- Or Caetano Veloso or whoever, just people from all over the place.

But I think that elevating North Carolina artists to be in that same conversation I think doesn't happen as often as it could maybe.

- Yeah.

So I'd like to talk a little bit about the set list that you all played for us.

And I'd like to start with "This Night."

Can you kind of talk to us a little bit about "This Night?"

- Sure.

"This Night" is a song from "Wild Loneliness," which is a record that we made during lockdown essentially, during the pandemic.

And because of the rules and people not wanting to get sick, we recorded the album in my basement, one person at a time, essentially playing their parts.

And "This Night" the song is like, you know, I don't remember exactly if I had this in my mind when I was writing it, but in retrospect now, it feels like it's about wanting to just like, be able to just go out and see a band and like have a night in a bar somewhere and not be stuck in the basement during a pandemic.

But, you know, it's the first song on that record.

And yeah, it's one that we still play a lot.

- It's not the first song on that record.

- Isn't it?

Oh, no, you're right.

"City of the Dead," a song we never play is the first song on that record.

- Yeah.

- Sorry.

- And it also, "This Night," the recorded version is not...

It's not that it's drastically different in an arrangement as it's played live now, but because we were recording in your basement and you were playing mostly acoustic guitar.

- Yeah, I only played acoustic on that record.

- Yeah, and it was, you know, just sonically a very different track.

And it also had... What were the other instruments on there?

- Well, on "This Night"- - Was there a violin?

- There's some strings that were arranged by Owen Pallett.

- Oh, wow.

- Right.

- And there's backing vocals from Tracy Ann Campbell who's in Camera Obscura.

So yeah, the recorded version is very lush, kind of acoustic, electric indie rock, and then live, it's more like- - It's evolved into a much more straight ahead rock song.

- Yeah.

- Right.

- So this version is the rock version.

- Yeah.

I wanna ask you really quickly about that recording style that you had to do versus saying what you chose?

- [Jim] It was horrible.

[James laughing] - [James] Why do you say that, Jim?

- Oh, no, I mean... - Jim would come over and I'd be like, your amp is already set up.

The microphone is on it.

You stand over there.

- I would come in the back door.

- We're both wearing masks.

I'm sitting over here with the laptop, Jim's over there playing his parts like that.

- And yeah, it was miserable.

I bet.

But it sounds great.

- It came out well.

- It turned out surprisingly well.

- Can you talk to us about "On the Floor?"

- "On the Floor" is a track from "Wild Loneliness" that is also about being on the floor of the basement where we were making the record.

And looking out the little slit windows at the weather, just thinking like, wow, wouldn't it be great if we could just go do whatever we wanted right now?

Nope, we're inside.

- What's it like to play a song like that now?

- It's kind of fun.

It's kind of cathartic to play it now.

- It's redeeming in a way?

- Yeah, I think that, well, like Jim was saying, the album versions are so different that when we play it now, it's kind of like a new thing and it's a more energetic thing.

- It sort of also feels like, wow, it would've been nice if we could have recorded this after playing it live a whole bunch 'cause you know, it's not that it's...

I love the recording, but it would be a different animal now after like having a life of it being played live over and over, over and over again.

It would be a totally different song almost.

- It would be, it would be.

I mean, I think- - Even though we play it the exact same way, it just would be less tentative maybe.

- One unfulfilled concept was that when we made that record, knowing how we were making it and that I was playing acoustic guitar and everything, one idea was that, you know, well, once we get to leave our homes and start touring again, like, we should make another version of this record where it's all the fully electric versions of these songs, but that just never happens.

- Yeah.

- But when people come see us live, they can hear what these songs sound like now.

I mean, I don't wanna second guess it because we got, one band I listened to a lot during lockdown was REM.

And speaking of "Shaped by Sound," I mean, that's a band that, you know, we've been listening to for 40 years now, or more actually.

But anyway, we got Mike Mills to remotely add some backing vocals on the album version of "On the Floor" on the record.

So, maybe just like everyone being stuck at home gave us the idea that we could say like, hey, let's see if Mike Mills from REM will sing on our record.

And then lo and behold, it came to pass.

- That's really cool.

- Silver lining.

- Yeah, silver lining.

- Yeah.

What's it, I mean, like for you, I mean, yeah, you're tapping into that, but what is that like to have like one of your heroes, you know, be on your record?

And you're just like, screw it, why not ask him?

- [Mac] It's wild.

- It's surreal.

Yeah, it's weird.

- I mean, but I mean... - I mean, they're known to be nice people and very generous musicians, so it wasn't a total surprise, but it's still kind of wild when I hear it.

- Yeah, it's also wild for me to hear you say that because I would think, you know, you all are just such a huge part of the scene too, and here I am listening to you all say, wow.

Like, my heroes are playing on my record.

- [Mac] It's pretty cool.

- I mean, we've met them, but it's a different thing than having them, you know, actually perform on something that you're creating.

I mean, that's a totally different.

I mean, I'm having trouble describing it because it's somewhat indescribable.

- I'd like to talk to you a little bit about "Learn to Surf."

Can you tell us a little bit about "Learn to Surf?"

- That's an old song now.

I remember when it was new.

- That's true.

- That sounds funny.

But I mean, seriously, it's like old now.

- We kind of took a hiatus from making new records for like eight years.

And then "Learn to Surf" is a song that was on the first album we made when we started making records again in 2010.

And so yeah, it's a newer song for us, but now that's 14 years old.

But that's a song that I really like playing.

And we always get a good reaction from crowds, I feel like, when we play that song.

And so, again, like any song that we have from a record that's that recent to me feels like awesome when crowds want to hear those songs, not just like our old songs, you know?

- Yeah.

Within "Learn to Surf," can you kinda speak to a little bit about the, I guess the tone, the mentality of it.

It seems to me like it's like a damn the torpedoes, go after it, learn the new thing and just jump in.

Is that kind of what you were going for?

- I think so, yeah.

And I think it's the record that "Learn to Surf" is on is called "Majesty Shredding."

And I feel like the whole vibe of that record is like post hiatus for us, but also post Bush years in America.

And, you know, maybe some reasons for optimism.

- Mm.

Can you talk to us about "Package Thief?"

- "Package Thief" is a really old song.

- I can't remember where that came from.

- You don't?

- Yeah.

- That came from... "Package Thief..." - I mean, I know the story about the lyrics - Yeah.

- Which you should speak to 'cause it's interesting or funny.

But the music, I just don't, I was like...

I have no recollection of- - Ever writing it.

- Of practicing, of ever...

I mean, it just always seems to have always existed in a way.

Like, I don't remember a time when it didn't exist or something.

- Yeah, I don't remember learning the music either, but the song is kind of just one of those songs about daily life and living in a small town, a small neighborhood in a small town, and characters that you talk to as you're just like, walking through the neighborhood, you know, old ladies sitting on the front porches just kind of saying funny stuff and people complaining about packages getting stolen off their porch.

And then you're kind of like, you don't really know these people all that well, so you kind of invent like a backstory to the kind of crazy stuff they're saying to you.

- And is this the video that was featured on "Beavis and Butt-Head?"

- Yeah, yes.

- Peyton Reed made a video for this song that features marionettes that look like us.

They're pretty realistic.

They look like us.

And it was played on "Beavis and Butt-Head."

And I guess part of the gag in that episode is that they're arguing about whether we're puppets or not.

Right?

- I never saw it, but that's my understanding.

- I don't remember.

- Or he says, wait.

I think these guy, I think they're puppets.

I don't think they're real people.

And it's obvious that, yeah.

So, it's a cartoon character is commenting on the veracity of the existence of puppets versus real people in a band.

I don't know.

- Yeah.

- I mean, it's a funny video even without that.

And then that added another layer of comedy.

- Yeah.

What's, for you all, were you like holy smokes, we made it to "Beavis and Butt-Head?"

At that time, I feel like it was a huge thing.

I don't know, I mean, for- - It was a proud moment.

- [James] Yeah.

- Very proud.

But like I said, I never saw...

I don't have any memory of seeing it.

- I think the cultural import of "Beavis and Butt-Head" was lost on me a little bit at the time 'cause it wasn't something that I watched regularly, even though I thought it was funny when I did see it, it just wasn't like on my agenda.

- Right.

- But I know that a lot of people saw that video only because it was on "Beavis and Butt-Head."

- Right.

- What about "Water Wings?"

- So, this is the 30th anniversary of "Foolish."

And so we've been playing "Water Wings" a lot on recent tours.

And it's a fun song.

It was never like a single or anything, but I think people really like this song.

The lyrics, I don't really know.

It's a little bit just about, well, Greg Cartwright from The Reigning Sound, he's been in different bands.

He now has a band called The Hypos.

They're from Asheville.

He had this quote and he's been in bands for a long time.

He's like our age.

He had this quote, a great quote in an interview where he was talking about listening to the lyrics from the records by like his earlier bands, like a band called The Oblivians that he was in.

It still exist, I guess.

And he said, yeah, those are songs from like, when you're mad, but you don't realize that like everything is your fault.

- Yeah.

[James chuckling] - You haven't realized yet that everything that you're mad about is your fault.

- [James] Yeah.

- And I think "Water Wings" is kind of like that, just like youthful complaining.

- Yeah.

- Grievance.

- Grievance, yeah.

- And just you being 20 years old and being mad at a little bit of everything.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

"Low F," can you talk to us a little bit about "Low F?"

- "Low F" is, I don't know, Jim, what do you think about, you're a big proponent of "Low F." - I love the song.

I like the music, I like the lyrics, but I can really only speak about the music.

I'm always wondering when we play it, what it's about.

Because I think I know, but I'm afraid to ask.

- Well- - Does it have anything to do with New York City?

- Uh, no.

- It doesn't> I always thought it was about somebody's apartment, "Low F" being- - Interesting.

- The letter F on an apartment door.

- No, "Low F" is like- - The actual musical thing.

- The note.

- The chord, okay.

- And my guitar, the E string is tuned to a low F. - Yeah, yeah, I know that.

And well, I just thought that was sort of like a... - It's a happy accident, - Mm, yeah.

Not an accident, like, not a synergy.

- Yeah, I don't know what would you call it.

- I don't know Anyway, I'm wrong.

It doesn't matter.

- It's a gimmick, a songwriting gimmick to tune the guitar to low F. "Low F" is on a record called "I Hate Music," a lot of which was written in the wake of the death of a close friend of ours and lots of other friends of ours who knew this person.

And so "Low F" is is just kind of like about being down basically.

And it's in a weird tuning, like I said.

The E string is a low F and so it sounds, I think, more interesting for the weird tuning that it's in, but it's also harder to play because you have to retune the guitar if you're gonna play it.

And I think we didn't play it for a long time, or didn't play it very often, but when we do, people react to it.

And I think it is fun to play, so we've been playing it more often.

But even though it's on that record "I Hate Music," which has been out for, oh my gosh, 10 years now, 11 years, we didn't play it all that often, but we play it more now.

- Yeah.

And Jim loves it so much.

- Yeah.

So, it's all about me.

- Yeah, Jim's a proponent, - But, you know- - I appreciate that.

- But, I mean- - [Mac] I'm just being lazy that I don't wanna ever have to retune my guitar.

- Whenever there's like any kind of band announcement on Instagram or any social media, we get a lot, you know, like, oh, play "Low F" when you're in Cincinnati, or play "Low F" when you're, like... - It has a following.

- It's remarkable.

It's remarkable to me that that many people will name check the song.

- That's really cool.

Do you all look for that kind of stuff, like people asking for songs and thinking about it?

- I think we pay attention to it because that's who's coming to see you.

You know, like it would be be weird if you didn't, I guess.

- Yeah.

- I can say it is a great treat whenever you blindly reached out to somebody you follow on Instagram and say, hey, like this is my favorite song.

And then they play it.

It is like one of the coolest things of all time.

Can you talk to us a little bit about "Hello Hawk?"

- "Hello Hawk."

"Hello Hawk" is kind of about New York City.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- But it's kind of, I don't know.

It's one of those songs I don't... A lot of our songs are not really about one thing or another thing, you know, they're just kind of slightly stream of consciousness.

- [James] Yeah.

- I think this falls into that, though sometimes in retrospect you go like, oh, it's kind of about that.

Like, I think it's kind of about being in one place and wishing you were somewhere else, but not having the wherewithal to like actually leave where you are and just wishing you could just be transported somewhere else, you know, without having to go through everything that that would require of you.

But it's one of the few songs we play from the "Come Pick Me Up" record.

And it was a single from that record.

And that record has a lot of interesting arrangements that Jim O'Rourke, who produced it, did strings and horns and things like that, which we don't have with us when we play live.

And even though this song on the album does have strings and horns, including former Raleigh resident, Jeb Bishop, who was in some local bands around here like Stillborn Christians and Angels of Epistemology and Egg, he plays trombone.

He's a trombonist.

There's a lot of stuff going on this song on the record, but live, it also works as just a stripped down like rock song.

- Right.

- So, we play it pretty often.

- I always think about it when we're playing it 'cause that record "Come Pick Me Up," when it came out, a local critic in "The Spectator" or "The Independent" reviewed the record and their criticism of the record was that Superchunk is playing too many notes, which is a quote from Amadeus about Mozart or something.

You know, I'm not equating, I'm just saying like, I'm not even saying that it was lazy criticism because I was like, that was a part a time of the band when we were like writing songs together.

So like, we'd gotten it down, not to a science, but we were pretty good at it for a while there where we would jam, you know?

And that kind of created denser textures and weirder arrangements and more notes, you know?

- It does have a lot of notes in it, I'm not gonna lie.

- I mean, I play a lot of notes.

I mean, and there's like a push me, pull me like everyone, you know, it's not all just like [imitates whooshing].

Each instrument seems to be kind of playing its own track.

- Right.

- In a way.

- I can't imagine getting that criticism now.

Especially with I feel like jam band music is just huge now.

Like, can you imagine?

I don't know.

Did you have a criticism of you're playing too many notes at- - I mean, I thought it was cute.

I mean, it didn't really affect me, but I remembered it.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- [Mac] And now every time you play that one too- - But it goes through my head every time just about.

- [James] I'm gonna play the crap outta these notes.

- [Jim] I gotta remember where they all go, you know, and what order.

[group chuckling] - Can you talk to us about "Driveway to Driveway?"

- "Driveway to Driveway" is a song that we play pretty much every night when we play 'cause people love this song.

- This is one of those songs that as soon as you start it, you can tell that the room has changed.

- Right.

- And that people are like- - Which is really fun.

- You know, they're paying attention.

- Yeah.

- Maybe.

They're no longer talking to the person behind them kind of thing.

- They save that for the song after.

And it's a song from "Foolish," which is 30 years old.

And it's a song that our friends Phil Morrison and Peyton Reed collaborated on a music video.

They collaborated on two music videos.

In my mind, we made both videos in like three days total.

- It was like one weekend and then the next weekend.

- Okay.

So the first part, which is another song from "Foolish" and "Driveway to Driveway."

And the "Driveway to Driveway" video is supposed to look like a- - Preston Sturgeon.

- Like a Preston Sturgeon, or like a movie like "The Philadelphia Story."

- Yep.

- You know, forties.

Screwball, romantic comedy kind of thing, though it's not that funny, to be honest.

- No.

- Sorry, Peyton.

But the video, it did turn out great and it features at one point Phil Morrison in a dress as a body double for Laura Ballance in order to achieve a certain like video effect.

Anyway, we filmed that in Chapel Hill and there's lots of extras in the video that are friends of ours and people in other bands and stuff like that who we recruited be in the video.

So, it's pretty fun to watch it from that standpoint.

And yeah, it's fun to play.

- Who all is in the video that we could pick out besides yourselves, obviously?

- Tom Maxwell.

- That's right, Tom Maxwell, who just wrote a book about the scene.

- Wrote, yeah, that comes... - Phil Collins from the band Satellite Boyfriend is in the video.

Colin Dodd, I think he worked on the video.

I think, I can't remember if he's in it.

- I don't know.

Amy Ruth Buchanan, Liz Sloan.

- Claire Ashby, who was also in the Angels of Epistemology.

- Ben Barwick, isn't it?

- Yeah.

- And maybe Jennifer Walker, Jennifer Barwick.

- From the Ashley Stove and Erectus Monotone.

- I haven't really looked at it in years.

- I don't know if you have to like slow it down to see all these people or what, I can't remember.

- It must have been really fun making that video.

Or, I don't know.

It seems like you were just with your friends, like just hanging out and just being creative.

- It's not fun making videos.

- No.

It might've been fun for them.

It might've been fun for the extras.

We had a lot of stuff to do, then we'd have to do it over and over again.

- And when you're not doing stuff, you're sitting around waiting to do stuff and that takes even more time.

- Yeah.

- You know, it's a lot of boredom.

- And you're also aware that everyone who's working on it, camera people and grips and whoever else is like doing stuff.

Like, they're all basically working for free.

- Yeah.

- And so... - Generous.

- The schedule can be punishing, but like, you know, we are getting a video out of this.

They're just kind of doing it out of the goodness of their heart 'cause it's kind of fun to collaborate on these things or whatever.

So there's also that aspect of it when you're sitting around just going like, you know, no one's getting- - Yeah, I'd say you feel almost guilty.

- Yeah, they don't wanna be here for this.

As far as like kind of the intention of the song, can you maybe speak to that a little bit or what you were thinking when you wrote it?

- It's just kind of like a blurry reminiscence of like a music festival.

- Just trying to recount maybe what happened and whether it was for good or for bad, or?

- Yeah.

Or just more that feeling of, like not really totally understanding what happened because like the last 36 hours were just kind of a blur, but trying to figure it out.

- Yeah.

Have you had that before, that recollection before, or trying to recollect something like that before?

- I mean, I certainly did when I was writing the song, I guess.

But I will say, just to clarify, the driving in the song is in golf carts.

A lot of people don't know that 'cause when you're at a music festival, sometimes the only way to get around from one place to another is in like a little golf cart.

- Right, little people mover.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

What about, "What a Time to be Alive?"

- The title track from "What a Time To Be Alive" is a song that I'm hoping will not maintain its relevance or its, what's the word I'm looking for?

Pertinence.

- Pertinence, yeah.

- Forever.

But it was part of a record that was kind of written in the aftermath of the 2016 election.

And just trying to like, wrap our heads around the fact that at least half of this country will vote for an obvious fascist to be president.

And, you know, we're back in this same situation where he's making it, this one candidate is making it clear every day that he's a huge racist.

He's an authoritarian.

He wants to be a dictator.

And half the country's like, I don't know.

It sounds all right.

- Hmm.

- That's a tough place to be and here we are.

But, that's basically what this song is about.

- Yeah, is it sort of just, yeah.

- How for some reason like white grievance is still something that like drives half the people in the country to make decisions.

- What a time to be alive, huh?

- Yeah.

- "Hyper Enough."

Can you talk to us about that?

- "Hyper Enough" is about a whole other music festival.

[Jim chuckling] And "Hyper Enough" is from "Here's Where the Strings Come In," And that's a fun song to play as well, because that was a song that we did have a video for it.

Norwood Cheek made a great video for this song.

And I feel like, again, maybe just because there's that video, like a lot of people knew this song.

It was just one of our only songs that ever got played on like modern rock radio, which was like kind of a big thing in the nineties, like a format that you could try to get your song played on the radio.

We wouldn't bother today, but we did then.

Our friend Karen Glauber who works in that world, like helped get this song on the radio.

So, you know, it's funny, the things that you're doing at the time and you're like, is this really worth it?

But then later you're like, oh yeah, there's a reason that everyone knows this song more than all our other songs because it was on the radio and radio means something, you know?

- Right.

- And so, yeah, again, it's just a little bit about like being in a crazy situation, like a music festival when people are losing their minds.

Maybe some people are doing some illicit substances and you're kind of just like spectating and wanting to keep a distance from it.

But also it's kind of fascinating, you know?

- Yeah, and maybe be a part of it - Not so much.

I mean, I think that's more what the song is about is like, I don't really need to be involved in that, but it's kind of like funny to be around you people.

- So that's all I really have for you right now.

I guess my last question would be, is there anything else that you'd like to speak to?

- It's been fun working on new songs, which we've been doing.

And by the time this comes out, I think maybe people will be able to hear even more of those, so.

- That's exciting.

- Yeah.

- What's sort of the timetable for that release?

Do you know yet?

- We don't exactly know because we've recorded a bunch of songs and they're not being done...

They're not done being mixed yet.

And we may record a couple more.

So sometime next year, hopefully there'll be more new stuff out there.

- Yeah.

And is it gonna be recorded in your basement this time again, or no?

- Not recording in my basement, no.

We're not in a rush to put out a new record 'cause then we'll start touring again.

So just gonna, you know, work on these new songs and make sure that the next album is something that we want it to be.

And then hopefully, maybe towards the end of 2025 have a new record.

- And for us, that's pretty an extensive future mapped out.

We are pretty, you know, take each day as it comes, so we don't wanna... We never have a grand master plan.

- Yeah, sure.

Has that always been the approach as well?

- Yeah, and we've never like sat down and had, you know, fill out a vision board or anything like that.

- I've tried to get Jim to fill out a vision board so many times and he's never taken the bait.

- Nope.

I mean, we were all, you know, we're all in this together, but who knows what the future can bring.

- Yeah.

Mac, how many vision boards do you have?

- I mean, I've got a closet full.

- [James] And you save them?

- But I save them.

I could just take a picture and then dry erase, but I just get a new one.

Yeah.

- Well, thank you so much for being on the show.

We really appreciate it.

- Thank you.

- It's truly an honor to have you all here and we're really excited that you came.

- Thanks.

- Thank you.

- Thanks for having us.

- Of course.

Thanks for joining us on the "Shaped by Sound" podcast.

If you'd like to hear some of the songs we discussed today, you can find them on our website at pbsc.org/shapedbysound, or find us on the PBS North Carolina YouTube page.

Thanks for listening.