(upbeat music) - Hello, I'm Nido Qubein.

Welcome to Side by Side.

My guest today knows how to swing for the fences.

As the first female president of Lenoir-Rhyne University, Dr.

Summer McGee is trailblazing higher education to the next level.

She's just getting started.

- Funding for Side by Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by: - Coca-Cola Consolidated makes and serves over 300 of the world's best brands and flavors to over 65 million consumers across 14 states and the District of Columbia.

With 17,000 purpose-driven teammates, we are Coca-Cola Consolidated.

- The Budd Group has been serving the Southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape, and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction.

Comprehensive facility support with The Budd Group.

- Truist, we're here to help people, communities, and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.

(upbeat music) - Dr.

Summer McGee, welcome to Side by Side and congratulations on your appointment as the first female president of Lenoir-Rhyne University.

When was Lenoir-Rhyne founded?

- It was founded in 1891 by a group of clergy in Hickory, North Carolina.

Lenoir-Rhyne is a combination of some of the family names of the founders that came there to start the university.

So we've been at the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains for almost 135 years now.

- It is associated with the Lutheran Church, is that correct?

- That is correct, yes.

We are a Lutheran institution.

- Give us some stats about Lenoir-Rhyne.

How many students from how many states?

And I know, for example, that you're an expert in the health area because you got your PhD at Johns Hopkins in health policy and the School of Health Sciences, I believe you were the founding dean at University of New Haven of the School of Health Sciences.

And I know Lenoir Ryan is very strong in those areas as well.

- That's right.

Yeah, so we have just under 2,500 students at Lenoir-Rhyne University, just under 1,500 undergraduate students and then almost a thousand graduate students across all professional programs, but we are incredibly good in the health sciences.

So we have nursing and physician assistant and all these different kinds of programs and really strong in business as well.

We've been known to produce, we have a fantastic accounting program.

So we've got some really strong professional programs.

And so that's one of the things we're really focused on, positioning ourselves as a premier professional university, offering that great liberal arts grounding, but ensuring that our students are prepared to find their purpose and their calling as professionals to make an impact in the world.

- And you're strong in athletics.

- We are very strong in athletics.

We have a great division two athletic program, 23 athletic teams at Lenoir-Rhyne.

And in fact, we are the national champions in division two for triathlon this year.

- Wow, congratulations.

- So really great, yeah.

- And let's see, Summer, before you came to Lenoir-Rhyne, you were president of Salem College in Winston-Salem, and then you made the transition.

If I recall at Salem, you did some very important things as well in health sciences.

So you have experience in the academic world, certainly, but in the administrative side.

And in both cases, you have been the CEO of a private university.

That's tough.

I want you to talk to us about what is going on in higher education today.

We hear about the demographic cliff.

We hear about some people not choosing to go to college.

We hear about affordability.

And private schools, private colleges and universities, it seems to me with no support from legislature or federal government, students may get some support, but the institution has to create its own funding.

These are testy and challenging times.

- Absolutely.

Yeah, one of the things I think that's been a hallmark of my career from my very first assistant professorship was that I built new academic programs.

And I think that's the key to success for independent higher education.

We have to be responding to what the market needs, to what students and families want, creating new academic programs, and listening to what businesses want.

What are the skills that students today need?

And so I think the independent colleges that will be successful over the next decade and beyond will be the ones that have their finger on the pulse and are able to move quickly to create new academic programs, to build students' skills, and to be successful.

And so that's something I've tried to do in the health professions and in the health sciences, always innovating and creating new programs, but really listening to what industry says they need and then making that for them so that they've got the workforce for the future.

- In the academy, that's rather revolutionary thinking, Dr.

McGee.

I mean, for ages, we've heard that institutions of higher learning are for the purpose of creating knowledge and doing research.

They're certainly not in the business of just graduating students so they can get jobs.

And yet you speak a very pragmatic and practical language.

- It is a very pragmatic approach that I have.

There are certainly great research universities that are about generating knowledge, but the vast majority of higher education institutions out there, especially the independent ones, are really about being the economic drivers of our communities.

They're about providing the workforce that will support and build the cities across this great country and around the world.

And so we have to be more practical.

We have to be responsive to the times.

I think where higher education can run astray is by thinking that we are completely insulated and set apart from the rest of the world and what's happening.

We need to be in the world and of the world and providing those generations of future graduates.

And so we have to be practical, particularly in these times because we don't have the state support and we don't have the resources.

So we've got to find a way to find corporate partners, to be out there innovating and doing the things that we need to do to ensure that we'll be there to serve our communities for generations to come.

- What is your answer to people who are saying, especially the media, so much in the media about the fact that college is not necessary?

Well, what with AI and all the rest, you don't have to go to college anymore.

You can just start some kind of a technical skill and you'll do just fine in life.

What is your answer to that?

- Going to college is about learning a craft, finding a profession, finding your purpose, but it's also about preparing you to live a fulfilling, well-rounded life.

And so when you attend a college or university, you have an opportunity to meet folks of different walks of life.

You have an opportunity to study subjects and pursue passions that you might not know you had.

And that I think is the real value of the college experience.

And so I think for those folks who say, college isn't necessary today, my question is, have you found your true purpose?

Do you know your calling?

And do you know how you want to live a good life?

Because that is I think what students can find at a college and university today.

You can go online and learn how to code and you can use chat GPT to do all kinds of things.

But the reality is, I think to live a purposeful, well-rounded life, college gives you those social connections, the network, the friendships, the relationships, and that broader perspective on life and the world that you just can't get anywhere else.

- So you have the process of maturation and incubation, human incubation, if you will, in terms of becoming more mature, more understanding, more knowledgeable, and hopefully growing some wisdom along the path of life.

Some of the arguments out there that what colleges harbor, brainwashing these students, there's a lot of governmental and other pressures on institutions of higher learning about the notion that colleges are not really teaching the right principles about America, about free enterprise, about the foundational principles that built this country.

What do you say to those people?

- What I say to them is spend some time at a small independent college here in North Carolina or around the country and talk to the faculty that teach those students.

I work at a place where our faculty care deeply about sharing their wisdom and their knowledge and ensuring that the students that they serve have a lifelong success.

And so I think that we do have an obligation as academic institutions to prepare good, well-educated, well-prepared citizens, people that uphold civic virtues and feel that they do have an obligation to give back to society.

That is part of our responsibility as well as academic institutions to prepare these citizens who will give back and make an impact.

But I think that if folks actually took a time to walk around a small 2,000 to 5,000 person campus anywhere in this country and talk to the faculty and talk to the students and talk to the alums of these institutions, they would know that is what the vast majority of independent higher education is doing today.

- I certainly agree with you.

I think that we often judge things from the outside and we don't really take the time to understand what the people are like 'cause humans are humans and faculty are wonderful people.

They were called to do this because they believe in what it is and plan exceeds the greatness in the minds, hearts, and souls of their students.

What have you found to be the most challenging part of being president?

You've been president twice now, Salem and Lenoir-Rhyne, both in North Carolina.

Although you are an Indiana born and bred person and you went to Indiana University Bloomington for your undergraduate BA in philosophy and then Johns Hopkins.

But you know the terrain pretty well.

I mean, you've been here, how many years at Salem?

- Five years at Salem.

- Five years at Salem.

And now a year plus at-- - Just under a year, yeah.

- So six years in North Carolina.

I've given you certainly an understanding about this state and its people.

And I take it you have a lot of North Carolina students at Lenoir-Rhyne.

- We do, we absolutely do.

- The graduate programs, are they mostly residential programs?

- It's a mix.

It's about 50/50 online as well as in person.

- So someone could live somewhere in the country and be taking an online program.

And what programs do those include?

- So it includes a doctorate of nursing practice.

We have a physician assistant program, MBA.

We have a master's degree in leadership, master's in teaching.

We have the largest clinical mental health counseling program in North Carolina, both in Hickory and in Asheville.

So we have quite the mix of both on-ground, in-person graduate students and online students.

- So as we talk about what's going on in America today, and as we look forward to see what happens in higher education, cognizant as we must be that some colleges are closing down.

A bunch of colleges have closed down, including some good ones like Birmingham Southern, which was a Phi Beta Kappa school.

And financially, they got in trouble and they had to literally shut down.

Now you're certainly very engaged and involved in academic institutions and associations.

What is the vibe out there?

Can we be optimistic about the future or are we really very concerned about the future?

- I think we have to be optimistic about the future, but we have to get prepared.

We cannot assume that as independent higher education institutions that we can just continue to do business as usual.

We've got to anticipate the demographics are changing, the attitudes that you talked about toward higher education are changing.

It's gonna be harder and harder to persuade families to make this investment to come to college.

So we've gotta do the work to tell the story, to talk about the value of higher education.

That is one of the things I think that is most challenging.

I think people took for granted for generations that college was the path to economic mobility and opportunity.

That assumption is being eroded.

And so now is a time when we've got to make our case, tell our story.

I think colleges and universities need to be distinctive.

We cannot just try to be everything to everyone and offer everything and try to be everything.

We've gotta have a clear mission, a clear purpose, and to then proudly tell that story.

And so the challenges I think as a president, one of the most challenging things that I experience is the goalposts keep moving.

The priorities keep changing, the policy is shifting, and the world is changing.

And it's changing so much faster than our typical traditional higher education processes.

That's right.

- Exponentially.

- That's right.

And so we've got to be more adaptable.

We've got to be more agile and operate more like other businesses and other industries if we're gonna get through this challenging period.

So I'm very optimistic that we can.

Look at what we were able to do through the COVID-19 pandemic.

We turned on a dime and were able to change everything about how we did higher education.

- But there was government support.

- There was support, there was support, but we've got to feel that urgency.

And I think that if we can feel that urgency as a sector and within our own institutions, we've got to make haste to make sure that we keep pace with society, with technology, and all the things that are out there that are awaiting us.

- I'm very encouraged by your tone.

I'm very encouraged by that.

I don't hear that very often.

I hear this tentative view of what lies ahead.

You seem to be saying, "No, we're bullish about it.

"We gotta make it happen."

Because you're right, parents care about outcomes.

- They do.

- And employers care about outcomes, different kind of outcomes.

Parents want their kids to get a job.

Employers want their employees to be high performers.

And so I think, especially independent colleges, but all colleges, have no choice but to focus on that.

- That's right.

- Lest they be disconnected from the reality of life.

- That's right.

- What about in business, you know, and you work with a lot of business people by sheer fact that you have alumni and donors and others and business relationships.

Businesses, we've had M&A for years and years and years.

All of a sudden, M&A has entered the world of academia.

- That's right.

- And you hear about mergers.

You hear about, you certainly hear about closures, but you're also hearing about mergers.

What do you hear out there about mergers?

Is it a good idea, a bad idea?

Do they come with a truckload of social issues and with alumni and with students and faculty and others?

Or is it the wave of the future?

That's what must happen.

- I think it's the wave of the future.

I think there is an imperative to be open to transforming the business model of higher education.

And one way to do that is through mergers and acquisitions.

And so collaborations, partnerships, this is incredibly hard work.

Other industries and businesses do it all the time, but there's such a fierce loyalty and a locality and all of those things that come with our colleges and universities.

As leaders of institutions, we have to find our way past that and to be able to show how these kinds of new relationships and opportunities will enhance our mission, help us stay true to our values, but also make us a stronger, more viable business entity for the future.

And so I really believe that there should be many, many more college and university presidents having candid conversations about how they can affiliate and partner.

I think there's a lot of opportunity out there.

And I think there's ways that you can retain your identity, stay who you are, but be a bit stronger as a business.

And so I hope over the next decade, we're hearing a lot more about this.

- Where do these strengths come from?

What is it that you see?

I'm more familiar with the business world of M&A.

Usually the reason, let's take banks for example, banks will merge with other banks or acquire other banks.

I've learned there's no such thing as a merger of equals.

There's always an acquirer in every relationship sooner or later through social issues and through administrative proceedings and so on.

But in business, you do M&A because you wanna create a larger footprint or because you wanna take out a competitor out of the marketplace or because they have other products that they are producing.

You're not producing products or services.

And therefore by acquiring somebody, you enhance, expand the depth of your offerings.

- But universities are very similar.

- It is very similar.

I think it's identical.

I think in these conversations in higher ed now, it should be about expanding your footprint, getting a larger geographic reach, being able to have offerings that you don't have now, finding a complimentary partner that maybe has academic programs that you currently don't offer.

Mission alignment is important just as it is in other industries.

You've got to find partners that are compatible, but it is about operating at scale and finding those efficiencies.

Having run a very small college or university, all the same offices and services and supports that students need are required whether you have an academic institution of 500 or 5,000.

- This is a backroom operation.

- That's right.

So I think that's where we can really find some opportunity and efficiency and keep the brand and keep athletic programs and keep all of those things and keep campuses, but find some operational efficiencies to run a little bit.

- We've been talking about this for years.

I mean, really about efficiencies of scale.

I looked at models in the past.

In fact, I looked at several of them just to understand.

Efficiencies of scale represent the very small percentage of overall operating budgets.

You have to have something much deeper than that, either expand the top line or merge programs or for cut programs, running two athletic programs are very complex and difficult thing to do, expensive thing to do, especially at the D1 level where you have NIL and you have portals and you have all the rest of it.

But I love your analytics about all this.

You have a really clear ability to dissect these ideas.

Tell me about you.

What's next for you?

I mean, you've been president of Salem.

Now you're president of Lenoir-Rhyne.

You're a leader in North Carolina and beyond.

I know you're engaged nationally in academic circles.

What is it you hope to accomplish moving forward?

- Yeah, I wanna be a proud and prominent voice for independent higher education.

I really am proud to have been.

And I worked briefly-- - Independent versus public.

- That's right, that's right.

And I've worked in some public institutions over the years.

- Well, you went to one.

- And I went to one, absolutely.

But I think the innovation and the agility that private colleges and universities can have can't be beat and that's what's needed in this moment.

And so I love being in that space.

I wanna help institutions, whatever institution I serve, to reimagine themselves, to be innovative, to be cutting edge, to push the boundaries and to be the very best that they can be.

And so that's why I'm excited now to be at Lenoir-Rhyne.

And we're launching in just a couple of weeks a whole new strategic plan with some really bold initiatives about where we wanna go around growth and the student experience.

And so I just think continuing to lead in this sector is a really important opportunity because we are a real backbone of communities and our true country.

And so I'm really proud to do what I do and wanna continue to lead and serve great institutions that really make an impact.

- What about affordability?

I mean, public universities 'cause they're tremendous tax support and so on, especially in physical plants and so on.

You have to go raise the money to build a building on your campus.

Affordability is a big issue.

And there's a lot of discussion and chatter about it and on merit and by design.

Can independent colleges be more affordable to larger masses when you and Lenoir-Rhyne and you're competing with certain public institutions not too far from you that charge minimal amounts for tuition?

How does an independent college differentiate itself to be distinctive enough to really compete?

I mean, this is sort of a legitimate question.

You don't see public schools closing.

You see small independent colleges closing.

And the reason is it's hard to compete.

- Yeah, I think you have to find a way to tell the story about affordability as value.

What is the value that an education at Lenoir-Rhyne or any other university is going to give in the long run over your life, right?

So looking at the lifetime earning impact, looking at the economic impact that earning a degree from an institution will give over time.

And you have to differentiate yourself.

You have to be able to tell a story about what will you get at this university that you won't get at any other academic institution in quite the same way.

And that is what I believe is the secret sauce of being able to tell that story and to be competitive and to compete.

It absolutely is a competition.

And so we have to change that narrative.

There is just this perception.

If you're private, you're too expensive.

That does not have to be the case, but we've got to make it simple, easy for families to understand how affordable we can be.

And for whatever you're investing, that you're making the biggest investment of your life in yourself or in your child, and it's going to pay dividends.

And that dividends part is what we've got to talk more about.

- So about choices.

- Yeah, that's right.

- Make the right choices, your life can be going the right direction.

But speaking of affordability, you've certainly made headlines recently at Lenoir-Rhyne by coming up with a program that can help a lot of North Carolina students.

What is that program and how does it work?

- So we have the Lenoir-Rhyne tuition-free guarantee, which is available to all North and South Carolina families that make a family income of less than $100,000 a year.

If they enroll at Lenoir- Rhyne, they will pay $0 out of pocket for their tuition.

- They pay for room and board.

- They pay for room and board, of course, but they will not have any out of pocket costs for tuition.

- How do you control that?

How do you make sure that you don't have 50% of your class?

- Well, that is something that we are working through right now.

We've had very steady enrollment.

We know what percentage of families have come from North and South Carolina and what their income levels have been consistently over the last few years.

We may see a little bit of an uptick because of this program, but we need that.

We need to grow.

We need to grow our undergraduate student body.

And so it'll be something we moNidor over the next few years, but we did this because we needed to change the narrative.

The perception- - And because you believe in education for all.

- That's right, and we want everybody to know that an education at a private university can be affordable and to give us a look.

And so that's really why we did this program to just open up more conversations with families that probably would have just ruled us out and said, well, I need to go to community college or I need to go to a state institution because I know what that sticker price is.

And it's very simple.

So we wanted to say, you know, this is an opportunity to take a look at an institution if you think it's the right fit for you.

- If they can go to community college, they can become PAs and they can become nurse practitioners and all that.

So you have your own uniqueness in that regard.

But clearly you're both creative and innovative and higher education needs more people like you, Dr.

Summer McGee, because you are rewriting the narrative in a very meaningful and persuasive manner.

And for that, I honor you and I thank you for being with me on Side by Side.

- Thank you so much for having me.

It's been a joy.

(upbeat music) ♪ - Funding for Side by Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by: - Coca-Cola Consolidated makes and serves over 300 of the world's best brands and flavors to over 65 million consumers across 14 States and the District of Columbia.

With 17,000 purpose-driven teammates, we are Coca-Cola Consolidated.

- The Budd Group has been serving the Southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction.

Comprehensive facility support with The Budd Group.

- Truist, we're here to help people, communities and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.