- "Shaped by Sound" combines performance and conversation to capture the depth of the North Carolina music scene.

There isn't much that lives outside the musical universe of Winston-Salem native of Sonny Miles.

While his music may float through genres and can be hard to define into a single source of inspiration, his musical universe continues to expand and is now brighter than ever.

Today on the "Shaped By Sound" podcast, we're in conversation with Sonny Miles and bassist slim hurk.

So, Sonny Miles, - Indeed.

- You from Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

- Indeed.

The Tray.

- The Tray?

I feel like your music is not just one thing, it's like so many things, and I'm so excited that you're on our show "Shaped by Sound," thank you for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

- Yeah, man.

So, I kind of wanted to start out just right off the top from Winston-Salem.

What was it like to be growing up in Winston-Salem?

Because I'm from, so I'm from Greensboro.

- That's right.

- So, I'm right next door.

- Yeah.

- But what was that like for you growing up in Winston-Salem?

- So, I think the only difference between Winston and Greensboro is the neighboring towns.

- Yeah.

- I don't know how many, I think y'all had like Jamestown or something.

- Yeah, well, which is named after me.

No, I'm just kidding.

[Sonny laughs] But yeah, we have like Jamestown, like High Point sort of jammed in the middle.

- So, it's like there's some neighboring cities, but for us it feels like there's a lot of smaller sects of towns that have their own kind of vibe and energy.

- Yeah.

- So, in living in the outskirts, just naturally affected by like just the pace.

Everything's slow, everything's more country, everything's a little bit more to your own devices.

- Yeah.

- Just a lot of time to reflect.

So, in that regard, the music becomes a lot of a reflection.

It's much more of like a, all right, this is what I'm influenced by, not necessarily what's going on.

- Mm-hmm.

- This is what I can make do with with what I have.

- Yeah.

- Because I'm not really in a accessible place.

We moved around a lot.

So, just always taking the influences of where you're going.

My grandparents stole from the country.

- Yeah.

- So, that's where like that root is, you know?

- Interesting, so, I was gonna ask you, you know, how does that sort of leak into your music, right?

That early stages of, you know, your grandparents, and just like that open space where it feels like you have to create on your own.

- Just very southern, very churchy as well.

- Yeah.

- So, those are the easy two influences.

I think I'm more influenced by, if not church music and gospel music, a sort of soulful kind of country, I think thing.

It really just permeates a lot more than anything else.

I think the easiest thing is like R&B, - Mm-hmm.

- or maybe pop, obviously pop music is accessible.

- Yeah.

- But those are like the two things, a little bit more blues oriented.

I like jazz as well, but... - Yeah, so, it's, again, like it feels like you're, like what you're making is a combination of so many things.

Hey, I'm kind of curious though, like, I'm just kinda going back to Winston-Salem.

Do you think that there's like a Winston-Salem sound?

- Oh man, I wish.

- Yeah?

- I wish there was.

We're all so weird and different.

[James laughs] And I think that's a greater testament to North Carolina too.

However, there's just nothing centralized about it.

As much as we could be like there's a type of hip hop sound, I really don't think there is either.

So, the beauty is everyone can just force their own path and they're also kind of forced to.

- Yeah.

- Like you can't really afford to sound like you're from Atlanta.

You don't really have these New York roots.

I can't say LA ever had a sound.

- Right.

- But in certain regions you could tell.

So, everyone's just got their own vibe.

- So, I guess I wanna kind of jump back for just a second and talk a little bit about your journey.

So, you said kind of like it sort of started in this like church roots.

Can you talk to us a little bit more about that?

- Played drums in church, didn't wanna sing.

Didn't really know I could sing.

- You didn't wanna sing?

- Nah, I was - [indistinct] that.

- At all?

- Nah, my dad, he was a singer.

So, and then also of course - Uh-huh, yeah.

- I grew up in an older form of like church, if you gonna sing, you know, you kind of, you know, you gotta be, you gotta do it.

- Yeah.

- And then on top of that, I didn't like the pressure of being in church 'cause it's like, I'm not really trying to be religious, - Mm-hmm.

- and you can't really be in and out.

- Right.

- At least when I was coming up.

So, it's like, all right, so I found refuge in the drums.

I ain't have to do nothing.

You know what I'm saying?

I'm chilling in the back.

[James chuckles] But around I'd say 13, 14, I began to just appreciate hip hop, lyricism, write poems, you know how it goes?

- Mm-hmm.

But I didn't really, again, start singing until I was about 17, and I started playing the guitar at 18, 28 now.

- Yeah.

- So, it's been a cool 10-year journey.

It was always kind of like, oh, I guess I'll try this thing out.

And then you're like, oh, okay, I'm solid.

- Yeah.

- And then you continue to progress and it's like, oh, okay.

I just gotta shapen this up.

- Yeah, so, I kinda wanna touch on that just a little bit too.

So, it seems like, 'cause you're still such a young guy, right?

- Yeah.

- But you found your voice at like in your late teens, - Yeah.

- and didn't really even like commit to singing until a little bit later than that.

- Yeah, I- - What's that journey sort of like been like, as you're like figuring that out?

- So, thankful for undergrad, - Undergrad at?

- NC State.

- Oh, right on.

Go pack.

- Go Pack, you know?

[James chuckles] But it was cool.

I was athletics, ran track and soccer.

So, just the, I just went to a play, and going into my senior year of high school, like, all right, I, you know, I guess I'll see about a play.

So, it was always just, okay.

I think if every, if I could have a motto, I think that would be my journey in music.

Like if the opportunity provided itself, I'd give it a go.

An old acquaintance of mine he was like, well, no one's told me I'm bad, so I guess I'll keep it going.

And at NC State, the same thing happened.

I'm just playing the guitar.

It's something that I felt diligent about, practicing in the stairwells and stuff, but it seemed to me that any opportunity I get, I just go for it.

But it was just a very gentle development.

You get an opportunity your sophomore year, you do something your junior year.

I was very much convinced it wasn't really gonna be a thing.

Like I was still getting internships.

I was still trying to find a real job, like work a real, you know, 'cause that's why I'm in school.

- Mm-hmm.

- And plus, I just started when I was 18.

So, I think 22 is when I finally start to forge a path of like trying some stuff.

But it's just been exploration.

- Beyond just like this idea of like, well, nobody's told me that I'm not good, so I'll keep going.

Has there been things that have happened to you where you're like, this is good, [Sonny laughs] and I wanna trust this path right now.

- About 10 years ago I had had what was formerly called the Black Symposium at NC State.

We had a talent show.

My mom was like, "You should do it, you should do whatever."

[James chuckles] So, I did it.

It was like 10 of us, but I'm just playing the guitar.

I had just started.

So, I'm kind of just flubbing around having a good time.

And I remember just the people, the way I was playing, it was only the one in three.

It was kind of like, [imitates guitar] And then everyone started clapping like this, [Sonny vocalizes] [hands clapping] And I was like, oh, okay, okay.

And then the reception was cool.

And then from that point began the steam roll of, "Hey, can you play over here?"

Or like, "Hey, that was solid.

Do you want 10 minutes over here?"

So, had it not been for that without a doubt.

'cause I think it steamrolled everything else.

Someone was like, I believe in that.

And then you do a good job and that next thing.

And someone was like, cool, you should do this.

- So, that performance sort of opened up this sort of just faith that you could continue to do this 'cause people were trusting in you and giving you extra space to do it.

- Yeah, and not knowing now, or I guess not knowing then, but understanding now just the ability to adjust in that moment.

Some untangibles, all the years of playing drums in church very much prepared me for like, all right, I think I'm ready to like do this thing.

It all can still feel new at times.

Just 'cause this wasn't what I was like, felt like I was trained to do.

- What do you mean by that?

- So, many of my music friends are like, "Yeah, I started playing when I was seven."

You know, like, "Oh, I went to Conservatory."

So, I resonate with people's feelings of like, I'm not quite equipped yet 'cause the more you progress, the more you're gonna get around some dogs [James laughs] who've been doing this for a long time.

And like, if your chops aren't in order, like you really gotta shapen it up.

- Yeah.

- So, all you can do is just keep progressing at the level you are, - Mm.

- and, you know, take the signs as they come.

- Do you still, like it seems like there's pressure there.

Like do you feel like there's pressure?

- Nah, but I wanna be great.

- Yeah.

- And I don't know anyone who, and that doesn't have to be about being greater than anyone else or being the best, but I wanna be great and I see greatness all around me.

And then greatness is like, "Yo, you got it."

So, I'm like, yo, let me, like, you know, I'm always a little nervous before a show, but I'm never like unprepared.

So, you're just, I guess you're kind of just saying each, were you ready to step up and just, - Absolutely.

- just drop it.

- I try not to impart too much pressure on myself 'cause ain't nobody really putting it on me.

But when it's your time to show up, they gonna be looking at you like, you gotta step up.

So, I just try to keep that in the back of my mind and try not to have it weigh on me too much either.

- Yeah, it's interesting to hear you say that because I feel like in your performance you can really like see you like stepping up and just being like, this is exactly who I wanted to present.

And just seeing that you let go is really, really cool.

- Yeah.

- It almost feels like a jazz thing, where like you're just like letting it take you wherever you wanna go and just trusting, right, and trusting in their band.

Right, to- - Straight up.

- To just like, let's ride this vibe.

I wanted to touch base a little bit on the name Sonny Miles.

Can you kind of expand a little bit on where that came from?

- So, I used to tell people, it was something my grandpa gave me.

He didn't gimme that.

It was from Sonny Stitt and Miles Davis.

I don't know what it was about Sonny Stitt in particular.

And you know, as an 18-year-old, I'm like, Ooh, Miles Davis.

Yeah, cool, whatever.

And I was super into jazz.

I thought it was different.

I thought it was new, you know?

But I admired a lot of, not only how cool he was, but also how varied he was, I think.

Anyway, he's just outside of his innovation, he was always like, okay, what I did last year, I'm done with it.

I'm gonna go do something new.

Whereas, you know, a lot of people will kind of get stuck in things.

I also loved Sonny Stitt's interviews.

He's got a slew of them on YouTube.

I don't know why I was gravitated towards him around the age of 18, 19.

That's when I made up the name.

But I also love Sonny Stitt.

He was just like, I'm gonna play with everybody.

Like, I love it.

Like he has so many records and he's played with so many like legends.

So, I like how both of them not only continue to journey and expand themselves, but also like their skillset too.

Like, they were just really great musicians and players.

So, I can't say I model myself after them, but I can say that name stuck.

I would like petition it to people.

I'd be like, "How you feel about this name, that name."

I still be doing it all the time.

Like, I always think about outfit names.

I'm always thinking about names and stuff.

- Yeah.

- But I told it to a deacon at my dad's church, I say 18.

And he was like, "Sonny Miles."

And it's crazy like, you go anywhere, everybody in the band say my name some type of way.

Everybody be saying it some type of way.

So, it's just funny.

It's like a running joke now.

So, I love it.

- Well, I think it's great.

I hope it's not a joke, 'cause I mean, to me it's not, [Sonny laughs] to me it's, - Thank you.

- it really encapsulates a lot of what you're trying to do.

And it seems like as well, like, I'd like to know a little bit more about how those influences feed into this music you're making.

- Ooh, I was really off that jazz stuff until last year.

I don't know what was going on.

- Yeah.

- I believe in the Saturn return for real, for real.

So, like, I'm just now like, I feel like I'm really coming back to who I was.

I feel like things that I used to love are finding me again.

- Okay.

- In a weird way.

So, I'd say now that I'm coming back to it, I see exactly why I was fond of them.

Like, they're... - Like, what are you coming back to?

Just not being influenced by what I feel like things, like what things will work.

- Oh, okay.

- I think at 20 to 25, impressionable, I gotta do this.

I feel like I got to, don't nobody like the things I'm making, the things I'm making don't really make sense yet.

I've always not done what people wanted me to do, as far as my art.

- Mm-hmm.

- So, when that's not paying off, you're like, all right, I think I'm doing the wrong thing.

- Oh, so you're kind of adjusting based on other people's thoughts.

- Absolutely, and I- - And so you're saying now you're like, no.

- Yeah.

It's like, okay, this is actually what I like to do.

And also it's like the things I love, I know how to integrate that with who I am now.

- Well- - In a way that feels real to me.

- Yeah, well, how are you doing that now?

- Oh man.

Jazz samples out the wazoo.

I'm also taking licks, and like the way people like Lester Young will sing, I'm like, okay, I can take that run and I can sing that.

Or like, I'm hearing harmonies.

I'm also not as obsessed with like certain jazz people.

Like I'm a little bit deeper in the journey now.

- Mm-hmm.

- I'm going heavily like back into music or just like house music as well.

- Yeah.

- I'm not really listening to as much lyrical stuff or things with words, ironically.

I'm really getting into like how people play things.

- Right.

- And then how I can like utilize that in a way.

- Well, so it's interesting 'cause like you, like, you know, this morning I was listening to that EP you put out, just party music.

- Yeah, thank you, - And it's sick.

Thank you.

- Yeah, but it is like that house music vibe.

I feel like you took like what you were doing with this like jazz, R&B, hip hop, and sort of just transforming it a little bit, - Oh.

- into this like house music.

And it really works - And I took that, I had sent the sample one of those songs For The Party, I sent that to my homie Tobias, and it was a jazz sample.

And he just did his thing.

Like he loves house music.

So, also I feel, you know, in creating and growing with people, I have a lot of friends who can do a lot of things.

So, now it's like, all right, you can do this really well.

We've bonded and hung out and just vibe, you know, let's try something different.

- Yeah.

- Usually don't do house music, let's try that.

Or like, I don't do you know, folk music, let's try this just 'cause we're, - So- you know, growing.

- Do you feel like you're gonna see yourself continue to go down that path?

- Absolutely.

I aim and hope that Sonny Miles can be like one facet of creativity.

And I hope it can be as fast and varied as possible, and not in like, some sort of like hyperbolic way.

Like I'd love to really do like a folk album, like a funk album.

I'm not the craziest jazz musician, but like, can I be around some heavy hitters and not just make sounds?

- Yeah.

- You know, like, can I like try to make some compositions with these guys?

Like how, or people, you know, how far can I go in my creativity?

- That sounds awesome.

It sounds like you're really trying to just forge a path that's your own, but also like be collaborative.

And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about collaborating with us on this show, which you've been outstanding with.

Thank you so much.

- Yeah.

One of the things we had to brainstorm with you early on and we were like, "Sonny, if there's anything that you'd wanna articulate visually in your show, like what would you do?"

And you said, "Astro Afro," like immediately.

Can you kind of talk to us a little bit about that?

Because like, I feel like we went down just a rabbit hole with that and it was so awesome and you had all these ideas.

- Man, Gamma is a definitely extension of like a long Afrofuturism kind of push.

I know there can be a bit of a critique about like, Blackness always needing to escape.

So, I didn't really necessarily wanna do that, but I didn't want to reimagine a sort of sonic landscape that is different from what we were being proposed nowadays, obviously influenced by the Sunrise, the Nona Hendryx, the Parliament Funkadelics, not only in their aesthetics, but just like in their ability to be like, "Yo, we're gonna make this crazy sound."

So, knowing that I had a opportunity to make something happen, I'm like, like, yo, let's cook.

Like, I mean, you just have to trust in people's abilities.

So, on our calls I'm like, "All right, they say they can make some orbs or they say they can make this backdrop facts," but then you show up and it's like, it's crazy.

I didn't really know what all to give, but I figured if I can give, you know, live concerts, and if I can give planets, and I can give colors, and I can give the moods and themes of the songs, they'll probably be able to shape and, you know, do what they can 'cause they're artists and creatives too, right?

- A long journey and just working with others is really trusting in their genius as well and in their abilities.

You do kind of have to guide folk.

But I'd rather like be like, "Hey, here's a map."

And then you know where to kind of go off in the map.

- Right?

- Like, you can be in this road, but like, feel free to go outside the lines.

And I think I prefer to keep that with everybody.

It was cool to work on Afro Astro.

It was, I don't know, I just love Galactic.

I love just imagining what Blackness can also be and what it can also sound like in another realm that isn't just, you know, this planet.

So, yeah.

- Yeah.

That's so awesome and we loved it too.

It was such a pleasure to figure out what ways we could work with you.

And thank you for kind of introducing that theme to us, 'cause you know, it was one of those things where I think we got to have that creative liberty to kind of go with you on that journey.

And that felt, like, that felt really great.

I wanna talk to you about Gamma a little bit more.

- Facts.

So, when you started producing Gamma, like what were you intending to do?

- It's always been a sort of land for me.

My biggest thing and my biggest concern about Gamma was just like landing as a creative.

Like, this is, okay, he sounds like himself.

- [James] Mm.

- I wanted, and I wish it could have happened a little bit earlier.

- What do you mean by that?

- Like, I wish I didn't listen to so many people, and I wish I stopped, like asking people what they thought about songs like two years ago.

- Mm.

- However, the process was amazing because last year, being able to tour these songs and seeing what worked and what didn't, and to learn, okay, like this type of thing will work for people, crucial.

- Mm.

- So, I think every step of the way was just sharpening the knife.

I say I started working on it, 2021.

That's when I really started working with Tobias, Brydecisive, Akira.

That's when, I don't know, at the end of 2020 everyone was just like, "Yo, what you doing bro?

What's up bro?

So, I gotta cook."

So, you're starting to meet a lot of young people who are kind of like sitting in the shadows.

I feel like I too was as well.

So, 2021, when we're writing and building, trying songs, getting interest from deals, holding out on music.

'Cause it's like I might get signed.

- [James] Mm.

- That falling through.

2022, same thing, learning from the lessons of last year.

You know, changing up songs, but then you're starting to get a little bit in your head, you're starting to question a little bit more.

And then thankfully you gotta band though, but they're here to like help you.

And just like you can build those songs up, you can still play shows.

And then 2023 is like, I think everything got secure.

- Mm.

- A lot of the earliest ideas of 2021 were really able to be finalized and entrusted in 2023.

I- - So, that was a two-year journey.

- Absolutely.

And then dropping it at the top of this year in February.

But I really feel like the time of it was really 2021 to like 2023.

- Yeah, what was, I mean, for it to take two years.

What's that like?

I mean, is it, I mean, it seems like it was a lot of pressure.

Again, we're talking about pressure, but it seems like you were really like on a self discovery mission for two years of time and going through a lot of ups and downs.

I mean, especially if record labels are involved, and getting signed.

I mean, gosh, I can't imagine what that's like.

- Doing a lot of reaching.

- Yeah?

- You're doing a lot of reaching.

'Cause it's not just about you anymore.

It's about what is able to also work and hopefully make a return on someone's investment in yourself.

So, you gotta be like, "How you feel about this song?"

And they'll be like, "I mean, it's cool," - But... [chuckles] - "But like..." But then also be like, "But I want you to release what you wanna release."

So, at a point in time, eventually the noise has to stop.

And it's really just about figuring who you believe and who you really wanna trust in, and who you wanna send these songs out to.

Now, it's like, I might send it out to one person.

I might not even send it out anymore.

- Mm.

- Of course I gotta send to the band 'cause we gonna play the song.

But even then they're gonna take it and then just like, [clicks tongue] which is what I want them to do.

- Right?

- Like, I'd rather them just like destroy it.

Like, bring this thing in.

Oh, I like that arrangement.

Bring that in.

So, it just took a long time to grow and get, I guess, like grow back in comfort with your decisions.

- Mm.

- I'll never do that again.

- Yeah.

- Like I'll never feel like this isn't gonna work just because.

So, I think that was a part of my journey more than anything.

I feel Gamble was more about learning to trust myself and my voice and my creativity, as I wanted to be on this landing journey.

But even Slim told me in November, like, "You know, this ain't gonna be the thing for you, right?"

He was like, "You know it's gonna be another one."

- Mm.

- Like, and I needed that so much 'cause it helped me be like, okay, nothing has to work on this.

- Right, so, Gamma - Right.

- can just be Gamma, and then there could be the future.

- And we keep pushing.

- Right.

- And I'm really thankful for that.

And for all the people that were like, "Yo, like, just drop that shh," you know what I'm saying?

- Mm-hmm.

- Just like put it out.

- That's awesome.

One thing I wanted to ask you too, about this record it feels like there's a, there feels like there's a lot of love influence this record.

- Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you'd be hearing Top 40 or you just hear, you know, R&B Radio.

I'm like, man, we are just like all of our messages are homogenized and I understand why they have to be, - Mm-hmm.

- I get it.

Like, we ain't gotta go into all that, but like, I don't want to just be limited to [inhales sharply] [fist thudding] [sighs] just the worst parts about love.

And I feel like we don't have anybody just making love songs that are about growing in love, and it doesn't have to end in this like, travesty.

And it also doesn't have to, like I wish I could've gone deeper into like the ways love is awkward, in the ways like, I want this, but like low key I got and like, I'm tryna, but I don't want it to be negative.

I don't want it to be so entrenched in just like sex and lust.

It's just so tired.

- Right, I mean, - Straight up and down.

Like it's tired.

- Yeah, I mean that's one of, I mean, when we were talking about love, it feels like that's one of the largest questions we've been trying to answer as a human race.

Like what that is, defining it, and there is no answers, right?

So, to dip into that and go outside the physical side of it and to get into like the metaphorical and the deeper side of it, it seems like a journey that's always gonna bring out questions and different answers and beauty, right?

- Yeah.

- That's cool, man.

One other thing I wanna ask you too is sort of a harder question, but this show is called "Shaped by Sound."

Kind of the goal of what we wanna talk to folks about is, you know, how music influences your world, how it changes you, how it impacts you.

How do you think that you've been shaped by sound?

- Ooh, sound is so much more than just, it's like, I don't just wanna hear music.

Like what does, if I think about what North Carolina sounds like, I wanna think about the birds.

Like, I quite literally think about the road and the way that the road sounds, the rivers, the cicadas.

These sounds and their rhythms have had a profound impact on me, just being around nature, being from the Carolinas.

I think I'm always listening to what is just in my, I guess, arena or my aura.

It's not just this music thing, or it's not just what I can make right here.

How can sound be heard in other ways?

So, I think how a lot of my sound has been shaped is in my environment.

Like a clock in my nana's house and how it goes off every hour, or like a new song that comes on with it, you know?

- Does it feel like a bunch of little things that just add up?

- It does, I feel my sound is more than anything else, just surrounded with nature, surrounded with the ways that Carolina speaks as well.

The ways that I guess my family that how they just live and move in their life.

I think that has profound effects on me.

It's hard to say all the ways I've been shaped by sound, but I know more than anything else, I'm always listening to my environment.

And the weird sounds that you feel like probably don't matter, that shapes me, absolutely.

- Like your nana's clock.

- Absolutely.

- Heck yeah.

- A little rooster.

- Yeah.

- You know?

Throwing rocks, man and hearing a rock hit the tree.

Like, y'all don't even know, man.

I used to just throw rocks and hear how it would just.

[Sonny imitates rock falling] And then that right there, you can just hear something all that time to yourself, so.

- Yeah, and the cicadas too, especially this year, I feel like we got just swamped with that.

- You know, the bird chirps, like you can resonate with the sounds.

Man, I still live out in the country, so sometimes I'll just sit up on the porch and just like listen to 'em sing.

So, but I like to infuse that in my music.

- Right.

- You know?

I'd rather you hear all the crazy things going on.

- Yeah, you do get those nature sounds throughout Gamma, which is really cool.

- Trying to switch it up a little bit.

- I love that.

Well great, I would love to kind of go through what you're gonna play for us today, but I think we're gonna bring in Slim to do that.

So, maybe we, this would be a good time to bring in Slim and we can kind of chat through some of the songs.

All right, so, we've got Daniel Slim Maxwell joining us now.

You are part of the Sonny Miles group here, the band that we've got on stage.

Thank you for joining us, man.

- It's a pleasure.

- Sonny has told us how much of an impact you are on this music, and I really wanna jump into that with you both while you're here.

I wanted to really ask you one thing first.

It just seems like you all have so much fun playing together.

Do you feel like you do, - Yeah.

- like, do you feel like you just go up there and like, have fun?

- Yeah, [James laughs] [Daniel laughs] - Maybe.

- It's just, I think how we started before I was calling him slim before he was like, "Yo, call me slim."

Like, we were just chilling.

It was so much of it was just jamming.

He like welcomed me in.

Like, "Hey, we're just gonna play."

And like, we just, we gonna do that.

Like, it wasn't made with any pretense.

Anytime we had something to do, he was just like, "Yo, just trying to have a good time."

- What is that musical relationship like?

Like what do you feed off of for both of you?

Like when you kind of step up together, like what's something you're like, "Oh man, that's why we're playing together."

- I feel is probably trust and understanding.

Because now he can switch stuff up and the rest of the band can be like, all right, we watching him real quick 'cause he know what I'm probably thinking.

You know what I mean?

So, I think now more than anything, just the constant reps have provided like security, and now we can just get off track.

Or if he goes somewhere else, I can be like, whatever.

Like it'll be all right.

Like, he gonna get us back.

I dunno about you.

- Yeah, I think we spent so much time just together in music, and there's times where he's just sat down and said, "Can you play me this?"

And he just go.

♪ Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom ♪ And I'm just like, "I'll figure it out."

- Figure it out.

- And then we've done that so much to where it actually makes sense now.

And so like we have that trust, we push each other to get better and to bring new things in, every time we do a new show.

So, like the past, like three or four shows, we haven't done none of these songs the same way.

[Daniel laughs] 'Cause we're trying to always do something different, always trying to be like, "Hey man, how do we switch this up?"

So, I think that's key to like building the type of relationship that we have.

- Yeah, so, if you're gonna experiment, it does take a lot of trust to know that the other person can join you on that guy, yeah.

- And to also know what you need.

Like, he did something crazy maybe three weeks ago where I was just practicing my scales.

We were working on the modes.

And without even asking he puts on a metronome.

Now for musicians, you know, how important it is to practice to a metronome, - Mm-hmm.

- but to not even have to ask about it.

And then he joined in, so we're just doing it in unison for like 30, 45 minutes.

But it was on some, like, I'm just doing it by myself.

He's doing something, he's probably doing something.

[Daniel chuckles] You know, so he's probably getting ready to do something.

[Daniel laughs] - But he can just like stop and he's like, oh, he need a metronome.

And we not even having a conversation.

And then he's like, "Okay, we about to play."

- Mm-hmm.

- So, just knowing when it's like time and when it's not, and not having to even speak about it.

- Yeah, and how does that sort of translate to like a record when you're like making a record with each other?

- Man, I think the first real record we kind of went crazy on that wasn't like something else was righteous.

We made this song called "Righteous," and he just like made up his own baseline.

So, we're just like sitting in the living room, enjoying ourselves.

He hears and he cooks.

- Mm.

- And I have to think twice.

If I wanna change something, I could, but unless I'm hearing something in my head, I'm just letting him cook.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, and anytime he's like, "Hit me up," to like put something down on something, I've always come in with the head space of whatever he needs I'm gonna try to give it to him.

But it's really come to the part where like he's like, "Dude, I want whatever you want on the track."

And so it changed from like, "Hey, does this sound all right?"

To like, "Hey, I'm gonna do this."

And he's like, "Yeah, do that."

- So, what are some of the things that you like to bring to this like sound that y'all were developing together?

- I like to really, I feel like I'm the anchor of like the funk and gospel aspects of what we bring, a lot of, like the changes and stuff that we do in our shows is changes that I've developed from playing in church.

A lot of my fields are very like funk-based [laughs] and we both love funk.

We both come from church.

A lot of our other band mates have some experience in the other genres like jazz and stuff.

So, they bring those influences in, and when those mix together it just, it makes a beautiful thing.

- It definitely does.

And I'm really, really glad that we get to have it in our studio and we get to see you all sort of make that happen live.

I wanna go through some of the songs real quick and just kind of get your take on them, and sort of understand them a little bit more.

And I maybe wanna start out with "Run Around."

When y'all were putting that together, when you're arranging that, what's that like?

- So, Phil made the arrangement as we are learning, oftentimes we're working off what a producer has sent.

There's a few songs on that list though that we didn't have producers.

- Yeah.

- So, it'll change, but as far as run around, we're more copying and paste them where we challenge ourselves as like, all right, how can we not be bored?

So, like- [James laughs] - So, somebody gave you sort of like a sample or something, and y'all were like, how do we make it our own thing?

Am I, - Yeah.

- Daniel, did you prove that, right?

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

- And it comes after having made the song out, and like flushed out, like Daniel knows it by the time it's even about to be put out.

Where we switch up, he's like, all right, well, what can we do in the second verse?

All right, we can drop it to this chord and then drive it this way.

I think that just comes from him, like toying around with a different thing in the scale.

Like shout out to scales - Yeah.

- Straight up.

Like- - Scales and substitutions.

- For real.

- Yeah.

[laughs] - Like if it's on the two, like what would this six sound like?

And that would completely distort the whole thing.

I'm just now learning my numbers for real.

But he being like, "Yo, yo play the four."

[Daniel laughs] And then, you know, Soul over there talking about a flat seven, - [laughs] Yeah.

- a flat five.

- I'm like, "Bro, what is this chord?"

But in essence, we take the foundation of what someone at least for "Run Around" gave us and we're like, all right, we have to just eliminate all the parameters.

So, he added a really cool baseline for that second verse, and then we do it again at the end.

All he's thinking is, yo, if we bring it back, could we do it this way?

- Mm.

- So, "Run Around" is more like alternates and base, but a lot of it was based off of what Phil made.

Shout out to Craft.

- Shout out Loop.

- Phil Craft!

- Well, he goes by Craft, but his name is Phil.

- Oh, sorry, shout out Craft.

So, what about like the tone, and like the feel, and like the vision for "Run Around?"

What is that?

- I thought it was that three, four time and the sample that's originally made to it, it just felt very somber.

- Mm.

- But in that moment I kind of turned it into like anger.

So, I'm like, all right, now we can make it a little bit more rocky, or a little bit like stronger.

- Mm-hmm.

- He's also, he and I are very, and the soul incline, inclination, I think there's also some rock in there too.

I think funk and rock are very much extensions of the same.

But like, you know.

[fist thudding] - Yeah.

- That's what we- - Especially with like Parliament, right?

- Yeah, absolutely.

- I mean like that's like a nice fusion there, right?

Where they're getting into that funk.

But also just like rock elements that just take off.

- We have that in us a lot.

- Mm-hmm.

- Though we seem chill.

We- - You both seem very chill.

- We be turning up, [Daniel laughs] you know, especially on that stage.

So, I think "Run Around" is probably the best example of like, all right, we can give them a little bit more of us, - Mm-hmm.

- in a way that they might not give for a lot of this set.

- Mm, let's transition into "Over & Over."

What is sort of like the thinking into that.

'Cause I feel like that's a big song on Gamma, - A huge song last year as well.

And still I think it's definitely a staple of ours.

Groove, a lot of the baselines we're working with can be a bit behind the beat.

- Okay.

- And in production that works, but in a live setting that might not.

- Mm.

- So, the way that "Over & Over" has this almost delay thing on the record, we really gotta drive it more on the live.

Like, you kind of gotta lock it in 'cause people here to dance, right?

- Yeah.

- So, originally I was trying to have Daniel play like the record, and then I'm like, that's not really gonna work.

But he still drives it and like delays it a little bit too.

Like he's not too over the beat either.

- Hmm.

- So, it's just adjustments.

Shout out to Kim, Kim Spruill.

- Yes.

- Kemebrulee, she made the beat up.

- She cooked it up.

- She is nuts.

Like he's probably the first person I sent her to and then he's just learning in there.

Do we have a changeup in there somewhere?

- Some subs, yeah.

- Yeah.

And then we get to cooking on the ends, like how we gonna end the song, how we gonna begin the song.

So, the same tag we had, Kim didn't put that in there, but we like, [Sonny vocalizing] you know, take that tag, we gonna end it.

So, yeah, that's some thoughts.

I don't know if you have any.

- Shout out to, is it MoDre.

- MoDre.

- MoDre wrote the, [Sonny vocalizing] he put the baseline on there, on the record.

And so when I heard it for the first time, I was just like, oh God, I can't wait to play this.

[Daniel laughs] [James laughs] And so yeah, when I got my hands on it, I just put my own influence on it when we're doing it live, you know, pushing it just a little bit more, like he said, not as far behind the beat.

- Yeah, - That's on the track.

'Cause like the track is more like a groove, - Mm-hmm.

- but when you do a live, you want people to dance a little bit more, so.

- Yeah, I wanna touch on that.

Like what is that like when you're just like, this is a dance track, like I can't wait to play this.

Like what's it like seeing people interact with it once you're doing it?

Specifically for this song, right, like?

- That's a good question.

Yeah.

You go ahead.

- Keep it going.

Like you don't wanna lose people.

[inhales sharply] [sighs] And in our influences it becomes so pertinent that you see why they just drive songs.

You see why they just stay in a pocket, 'cause all this extra stuff be making people like, like what, you know, they moving, but they asking like what they doing.

- Mm-hmm.

- So, it's in those moments where you get a good pocket and you see people grooving that you're almost like, yo, we gotta stay right here.

Or like, nah, just stay where you are.

You get the importance of being in pocket - Mm-hmm.

- 'Cause it's really not about you, like you are the conduit of what's giving people some life.

So, you really gotta keep that life.

- Right?

- Yeah.

- Straight up and down, like.

And I love that we know chops, we know fields and stuff like that.

Time and a place.

- Mm-hmm.

- Yep.

- And also the honor that, you know, the composers of the arrangements aren't too married to people's interpretations of them either.

- [James] Mm-hmm.

- Like it'd be one thing if you know you're working with people and they're like, "Why you playing my song different?

Like, what's up with that?"

But you know, MoDre is love.

- Yeah.

- He is like, "Yo, I love that version," or like, Kim's like, "Yo," so.

- That's really cool.

For people that don't know, explain what it means to be in the pocket.

- Oh.

- If you can.

I know that's kind of a hard thing - So- - to describe, right - Yeah, being in the pocket is, [Sonny vocalizing] [fingers tapping] pretty much the groove that you're supposed to feel going through the whole time.

Like, you're supposed to have this feeling that is established by the band.

Usually the drums and the bass usually get that locked in for you.

It usually takes about two, three times around to get it.

So, like when "Over & Over" you hear that [vocalizing] [Daniel vocalizing continues] third time around you locked in.

- Right.

- That's the pocket.

- Yeah.

- You don't want to do anything that's gonna distract people from still locking in on the head.

- And identifying it.

- Yeah.

- Right?

- Yeah.

So, that's it.

You see how everybody's head's still bobbing?

And we're not even - Yeah.

- playing anymore, 'cause the pockets is in there in there.

- In it.

[Daniel laughs] - That's very true.

Cool, I love that.

Let's talk through "Quiet."

So, that's a bonus track?

- Yeah.

- Mm-hmm.

- It's probably a bonus just because we did it so much.

I feel like, you know what I'm saying, that's probably one of the first songs we really like doing that in this phase of Gamma were songs, like "Quiet" was probably the first song that not only people knew, but we had our first headlining show in August and people knew the song just 'cause it was like, it was fire, but also 'cause like, you know, we've been doing it.

That arrangement has grown exponentially.

It was originally a house number, so we turned it a little bit more like Latin.

I still wanna make it even more Latin.

- Mm.

- But you know, we switch up.

When Daniel and I get bored at the, again, like these turnarounds.

So, we'll get bored.

Like, all right, what can we do?

I don't know when we made that bridge, or the intro to the second bridge.

I don't know when we made that.

- I, yeah, we did it a couple times before we even made it yet.

- But that's been, that's something we've definitely worked on quite a bit together.

I'd say that was probably one of our earliest.

- "Quiet" was a project for Fredo.

Wasn't it?

- Yeah.

- First class, yeah.

- Yeah, that was one - Yeah.

- of the projects, yeah.

- It was a project for a client.

- Private client.

- So, that was a song for somebody else?

- Straight up.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, y'all were like, can we just keep it?

- Straight up.

[Daniel laughs] Shout out to Brydecisive, awesome producer, house producer as well.

And he just gives us the bare bones.

That was one of those instances.

We've definitely made this arrangement quite a bit - Mm-hmm.

- 'cause like he gave me that loop.

I even pitched it a half step or like three steps down, or something like that, just to make it crazier.

And then Daniel's like, okay, let's take that from there.

- Mm.

- But... - What's sort of like the identity of that song beyond just the technical side?

- Oh man.

Flirtatious, fun, talking junk.

That was when I was in my backseat era.

- What's that mean?

Your backseat era?

You can explain.

It's okay.

You can explain it to us, [Daniel laughs] if you want to or not.

- You know- - Okay, yeah, is it one of those like, ah, maybe, yeah.

- You know, you know, 2020 we was inside.

2021 we was outside.

[James laughs] [Daniel laughs] - Yeah?

- So, you know.

- Okay.

- I was just having a lot of fun.

I just didn't really wanna care.

- Yeah.

- That was a fun summer.

We was just like chilling a lot.

So, that identity is more, hey, let's have a good time.

Let's be a little bit more.

I know a lot of it wasn't based in lust, but that's probably one of the few songs that is.

And just like, having fun.

- Cool.

- Yeah, like the vibe I get from that song is like, I mean, it starts with the first words.

Like, "I don't wanna keep it quiet with you."

It's like, I'm applying pressure right now.

Like, if you trying to be sneaky, that's not me.

I ain't trying to be quiet, [chuckles] you know?

- Right.

- You know?

- What about, let's talk about "Can't Swipe Away."

- Ooh.

- Mm.

And I also say like, one of your kind of directions for us with making the show was you're like, this is reds.

I see a lot of reds here.

- Yeah.

- Can you kinda expand on that?

- We had a really magical show April fourth for We The Roses.

That was probably the first time I really, I think that's probably the first time we really did "Can't Swipe Away" for real, for real.

But then also living and seeing someone's interpretations, and they were doing a lot of red, the lighting people.

- Mm?

- Figured, hmm.

And the way it worked, and again, the beginning and the end are extremely minor keys, very dark like Soul was playing these like, [vocalizing] they're very like brooding notes.

- Mm-hmm.

- Yeah.

- But it turns into a sort of rock thing.

So, just leans itself towards like more reds, a little bit more like rage.

- What elements of like rage are in that song?

- Man, just like, as opposed to feeling like, all right, it's romantic.

Like, you know, I couldn't leave you way, like how can we turn romance into passion?

I guess we can take rage out of it.

More passion, more impassion, and more like, you know, like, like, I mean this, like, like I really can't leave you.

You know what I'm saying?

I really can't get away.

You know?

- What's the can't swipe away part of it.

- Like, you know, you on your phone, you see somebody bad - Yeah, biting the phone.

- and you like, dang like.

- Mm.

- Swipe.

Can't swipe, but you just see, - Dang.

- I can't, you know?

- Yeah.

- You know, like, man, I would if I could.

[James laughs] - But I can't swipe.

- No.

- If I tried, I tried to, still can't deny, you know?

[chuckles] - Right.

- Yeah.

- Man, that's a very digital age, - Yeah.

- Idea.

- I wanted to go with it.

I love the George Clinton had this digital good time thing in this Outkast joint on synthesizer.

I'm like, yo, there was a line that was like you, "They're lap dancing with your laptop while your laptop's in your lap.

Digital good time."

- Wow.

- And like we don't utilize our phones.

Like we be using our phones all the time, but like we don't really write songs about like what we do on our phones in a way that's not coy and like stupid.

- Right.

Yeah.

- So.

- What about "More Than You Know?"

- Oh man, that's probably - "More Than You Know."

- the most like us thing.

- So, "More Than You Know," is the most us thing that you've done.

- Shout out Dillup.

Dillup is the creator of the beat.

But again, like we're just taking this thing.

We made the bridge.

I don't know how we made the bridge.

- The bridge- - Was it just like a jam that kind of turned into something?

- We just wanted to break all the rules when we made this bridge.

- Yeah, yeah, where can we go with it for real?

- Yeah.

Like for me on base on the bridge of "More Than You Know," like I'm going against everything that I've learned playing base, which is- - Really?

- being locked in with the drums.

- You got the hardest part.

- Locked in with the rest of the band.

On the bridge of this song I'm ahead of the band.

I'm doing things before the band gets there on purpose.

And that's hard to do.

[Daniel laughs] - I bet.

- Yeah, so.

- Yeah, his count, whenever y'all do watch it.

Like notice his counting and notice what he's doing 'cause like Daniel's absolutely the driver of the bridge.

It's kind of insane.

I don't know who knows real theory and stuff, but he's just moving in a pocket that's really interesting.

I don't know how it was created in that regard.

I think we just kind of worked in tandem with it.

But we got something that works.

- Yeah.

- Oh, yeah.

- The song is technically in 10/4 time.

- Okay.

- It's not in 5/4 time, but then it's also in three, ♪ One, two, three, four ♪ Yeah, it's in like 3/4 time.

So, it goes from 10/4 to 3/4 in a section.

- Yeah.

- If you like music.

- Yeah, if you study, you're a nerd, you're gonna like this as well.

- If you like counting, [Daniel laughs] if you're like okay, what's up with this counting?

We did it.

We did an acoustic version.

I felt like it wasn't even that great at, not you, but like, you know what I'm saying?

[Daniel laughs] And like [laughs] we was in Winston and we were chilling, and shout out to Trombone Shorty's people they were like, "Yo bro, yo bro, that song in like 5/4, yo."

So, you get things like that, it really affirms.

It's like okay, musicians like it too.

- Yeah, especially coming from Trombone Shorty.

Hey.

- Just love.

Shout out to his people.

- Yeah, gosh, hey.

- It was all love from him.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

- That's really cool.

So, what about "120?"

I will say like there's a really interesting vibe going on with "120".

- Something about "120".

- I'm telling you bro, my friend Roebuck, he's like, "Yo, '120,' '120,' '120,' bro."

I think that's low-key.

Yeah, it's a lot of people's favorites.

I love that song.

Shout out to Kid Rico.

That was more so Daniel and I basing off what the producer made.

He had such a vast instrumental.

- [James] Mm-hmm.

- It was just, yeah, that was one of the few times I'm just kind of shocked at what he proposed.

And we are just following Kid Rico in that regard.

I can't imagine we switched up a lot.

- This is one of the only songs we play almost pretty much just like a track.

- Yeah, and we haven't really played it.

We added this in the set 'cause it made sense.

- Yeah.

- But the last time I can recall us playing it.

- Acoustic.

- Yeah.

- We did an acoustic set with.

- We did a live one time with like four people.

- So, tell me a little bit more about how it just makes sense.

Like what is the, like what is the essence of "120" and why did it fit sort of this show?

- I think it's a really intimate song where it feels kind of intimate.

I like the words as well.

I don't know, like some things just people really resonate with the way it feels and the message that you're getting that.

- What are the words like for you that resonates so much?

Like what is something that really hits home for you?

- I said.

♪ Shattered glass hardest twice ♪ ♪ That every F was a fix ♪ ♪ Every fix was a fight back ♪ ♪ Removing my disguises ♪ ♪ Painkillers for our vices ♪ I feel like I'm really just tryna like profess my love to someone.

And in that verse I think I'm just talking about all the ways I've like changed and how this person is changing me.

I just think it's a really nice song.

- Yeah.

- And it works for a lot of unplugged kind of feels, and I feel like this is a good time to like take it down.

- Mm.

- Mm.

- You know, have like a little nice little moment.

You know, it depends on what we have.

If we got 45 minutes, if you got 30 minutes, if you got 20 minutes, you just adjust.

- Yeah, so, you feel like you're really like, because we were talking about this a little bit earlier, it feels like something where you could say like, this is really me.

Like this is an identity thing.

Like I'm coming out and I'm really trying to lay this down.

Like this is a huge part of who I am.

- "120" and "More Than You Know" are definitely, they work in tandem.

Is like, I feel if you would identity pieces for real, like our artistic kind of moves.

A lot of songs are great and groovy, but I think those are like.

Yeah, - Yeah.

- those ones.

- Speaking of groovy, this is my transition to "Bedroom Hollywood," [Sonny laughs] ahem, which is far out, right?

Like, - Thanks.

What is the intention of "Bedroom Hollywood?"

- Oh man, I was 23.

Very young.

I made that beat, shout out!

Really happy to [indistinct]- - To yourself.

- Yeah, it was all me.

Shout out.

[Daniel laughs] [Sonny chuckles] [James laughs] - Shout out something loud.

[Daniel laughs] - I was- There was definitely a point again in that reaching phase, - Mm.

- there are those ages, I just felt like it was a lot of like perpetrating and trying, trying to be like important and cool and stuff.

I think I felt I was seeing a lot of that at the ages of 21 to 23.

Not that I was above it either, but that I felt myself changing, and I also felt like people wanted me to like do some stuff, and make some sort of type of records.

That's when I really started feeling that.

So, "Bedroom Hollywood" was just like, yo, I think everybody's like, everyone thinks they're the bee's knees.

We all just chilling in our bedroom.

Like everybody think they, so, you know, we really get caught up in ourselves sometimes.

- Mm-hmm.

- So, it can come off as pretentious now, 'cause I don't like to talk down to people.

But at the same time I think I was more so speaking to like, yo, I'm not gonna let people turn me into like a I'm concerned with myself kind of monster.

I'm not gonna let myself get caught up in myself.

- Yeah.

What's it like for y'all to like play that now?

What's it feel like to play it now?

- Now that we have Soul.

- It's really like a break in descent for me.

- Straight up.

[Daniel laughs] [Sonny laughs] - If you feeling good with Soul playing 'cause let him talk, - Oh my god.

- And it, yeah.

- Yeah, Soul has taken what was once funk and rocking kind of, I'm not saying we country, but like I got that thing a little bit more, like I got a little twanginess about me.

- Yeah.

- Joe actually got more, Joe our other guitarists, he probably got more soul in church in his licks, straight up.

- Hmm.

- But - That boy played cold jig.

- He be playing cold jig.

But Joel especially Terrence, like way more jazz.

So, it takes all the styles.

I think Soul has really turned "Bedroom" into more of like a jazzy affair, which is cool.

I prefer it kind of like that too.

I think it matches the song too.

- Yeah.

- Feels kind of dreamy.

- What about "WE U NEED?"

- Oh, I love when people, I love that.

I love that.

I love that.

So, yeah, that's what I get for typin' [laughs] typin' stuff funny.

So, it is called "WENUNEED" but I see why people would be like "we."

- Yeah, also, yeah.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

- You know, that little end be a little disguising.

- Also, I'll be honest with you, I think that's just me being dumb.

It's... [laughs] - But you'd be surprised bro.

So, many people be like, "What?

We, we, we," so- - We can do weed.

[chuckles] - That is the banger.

I feel like when I made that song, I was outta here.

- Mm.

- And when we started playing that song, it's outta here.

We have played it so many times too fast, and then ended the song and brought it back slow, and it was a knocker.

- Yeah.

- So, once Daniel got like, 'cause again, I wanted him to play more like Tobias made it.

And again, Tobias likes to make a lot of his basses really behind the beat, 'cause I'd be preferring that.

- Mm.

- But again, you can't, you know, the drummer and basses really have to be in some sort of accord with that regard.

- Right.

- So, instead of trying to make that happen, we try to turn it a little bit faster.

That didn't work.

So, then we were like, yo, let's kind of turn to reggae.

- Mm, so, you think there's more of a reggae feel to this one?

- Now?

- Yeah.

- Absolute.

- Without a doubt.

- Yeah.

- And I'm so glad we did that 'cause it lends and leads to more people being able to participate in the song.

- Mm.

- Mm-hmm.

- Like, oh man, and they love to sing it.

- Yeah.

- We were, I don't know what we were, no, that's another song.

But I feel like "WENUNEED", probably last year that's when it was just knockers.

I wrote this song 2021 though, letting people get up in my head ain't really work on it or play it in 2022.

- Right.

- We didn't really do it at all.

- Really?

- And I was telling you, I was like, where is it at?

[Daniel chuckles] I was like, bro, we need to do this song.

- Yeah.

- Shout out Phonte because Phonte was like, "Yo, you need to put 'WENUNEED' out."

- Mm.

- I'm like, - Shout out.

- like okay.

And Phonte from Little Brother.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

Shout out, so, I'm glad I listened to him on that 'cause he was, facts, like he was right.

And everywhere we do, every time we do, I try to put at the end, 'cause that's like the money, - Mm-hmm.

- to us at least.

And people can, you know, get their little jig on if they wanna go ahead head home at 11, you know?

- Yeah.

- It's getting late.

[James laughs] - It's just a real good singalong song, like, - Yeah, yeah.

- after you hear that hook about three times you wanna sing it too, so.

- Mm.

So, you have fun playing it now too.

- Yeah, I feel a lot better.

That back half, I can chill a little bit, you know what I'm saying?

I can just sing the songs I love.

You know, the pressure's up on "Can't Swipe Away" and "More Than You Know," 'cause we gotta deliver.

- Right.

- But those back half songs we've been doing 'em for so long, - Mm-hmm.

- you know?

I don't know when we started playing "Bedroom" for real, for real.

Even when we were in the trio.

I don't know.

But I just feel like "WENUNEED" like we've been doing that for forever, you know, we haven't- - Yeah.

- So, we have "Slow" on here.

- Oh.

- "Slow" - Man.

- Tell me about that.

- NC State know about this song.

- Close the OG.

- NC State.

- Shout out to the Pack.

- Shout out to the Pack.

I wrote this song.

I think it, no, no, no.

I didn't do a song.

I don't know when we did it Dan, but I know the first time we really started doing it was 2015.

And you know, we just had the call and response.

- Yeah.

- We'd be doing the "Be Patient" joint.

[Sonny laughs] ♪ Be Patient ♪ - When Kateline was supposed to perform at school and then something happened.

So, we had to be the headliners, but ain't nobody really wanna see us.

[Daniel laughs] [James laughs] And, we did, - Yep.

- And we did "Slow."

And that was the only song people got up for.

They end up, I forget who it was.

- Acoustic.

- Shout out to her.

- Yes.

- We used Acoustic, and we had backup singers, you know?

- And we had backup singers, and we was just trying to thug it out, bro.

We were 20 trying to make a way, but somebody, I forget her name, shout out to Black women.

But she just, it's like she knew we were suffering and she was like, you know what?

♪ Uh ♪ [hands clapping] So, then she made up everybody get up.

And then I think that was when that song really started to have a life.

We did Packapalooza 2016, and that's when we really started doing that song.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- That whole call and response thing.

And then after a while we did up until 2019, we'd always do it at Emerge.

Shout out to Emerge when it was still around.

- Yeah.

- Emerge was awesome.

- Yeah.

- Emerge was the place.

- That was a really cool venue, man.

- Really cool space.

- I hate that it is gone 'cause that was the place.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Especially if you just wanna go out and try something, right?

- Yeah.

- If you just wanna like, and be in good community with people.

Like, shout out Fernando, Matt, everybody who used to work there.

We used to be up in there.

Anyway, anyway.

We gotten tired of the song 'cause it felt kind of played out.

We were like, all right, this feels kind of a little bit elementary to what we want to develop to.

- Mm-hmm.

- You know, of course now we're doing songs in different time signatures.

- Yeah.

- Like we didn't wanna do no 4/4 song, like it's lame.

- Mm.

- So, I don't know what compelled us to do it.

Was it Artists Against Apartheid, or was it a show before that?

- We did it before Artists Against Apartheid.

Uh, we did it before the CICA set too.

I think we did like a show before that.

- Facts.

- But I forgot what show that was.

- But somebody at CICA in June, they asked us to do it.

'Cause I think we had introduced- - No!

that was the- - It was CICA.

- It was CICA.

- Somebody was like, "Yo, you, yo, can you do that song?"

- Yes, it was CICA, and then we just told the band to follow us.

- Yeah.

- I didn't wanna do it at all.

- Mm.

- At all.

- So, it kind of just happened then.

We just reintroduced the song "This Summer," like a month and a half ago.

- That's really cool - And every time we do it, they love it.

- Nuts, we don't understand.

- Love it.

- We don't understand at all.

Like we, I don't know, it's just like, we used to do this in our sleep almost to the point where it's like, all right, this feels childish.

- But it's got a second life now.

- Something about it is really like, everybody get up on they feet for real, for real.

And like everybody owns, - Yeah.

- like everybody got up at CICA.

Artists Against Apartheid, we didn't know what was going on.

- They wouldn't let us get off the stage.

- For real, we was packing up and somebody drove around like Beef Pack, and he was just driving, singing.

We like, dang, okay.

- I don't, I think that we kind of felt like we might've outgrown the song or something.

- Yeah.

And you know, sometimes when you feel like something is used up, then you're actually missing out on the value of it.

You know, you might be not appreciating what it really is 'cause you just, you've done it so much, you just had it so.

- Right.

- It's a real 10 years old.

Like we were really pushing that song in 2016.

Like, yo, this is everything.

So, for it to be having a life of its own again is interesting.

- Mm, y'all thank you for coming in and doing this.

I wanted to kind of end this with asking you all if there's anything else that you'd like to add just to our listeners, and to our audience at home, is there anything that you'd like to say, or, I wanna give you all the space to do that?

- I'd say do what you love, love what you do, and they'll love you back, and find the people that you can trust and take them all the way with you.

- Mm.

- Yeah, um.

Yeah.

Thank y'all for having us.

There's a lot of things I feel like I could say right now, but I'm just thankful for this opportunity.

We are going to continue to shed light on all marginalized and oppressed peoples across this nation, across this world.

Do know that we are not artists that are gonna stand for that nonsense.

- Not at all.

- And we can express that a little bit clear in other ways.

But you will get the gist of what we mean.

Thank y'all, and we're just gonna keep rocking it out.

- Thank you.

- That sounds great.

Alrighty.

Thanks y'all.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- That's it.

- Pleasure.

- Thanks for joining us on The "Shaped By Sound" podcast.

If you'd like to hear some of the songs we discussed today, you can find them on our website at pbsnc.org/ShapedbySound, or find us on the PBS North Carolina YouTube page.

Thanks for listening.