-[Deborah] Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum", a leaked Supreme court brief signals an end to Roe V. Wade and a rallying cry for women's rights advocates.

And activists in Elizabeth City tell us what's changed one year after Black Lives Matter protests erupted over the killing of Andrew Brown Jr. by deputies.

Stay with us.

♪ - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum", I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

A leaked Supreme Court brief has set pro-choicers and women's rights advocates in a tailspin.

And we will talk about the implications with our panel in just a moment.

But first, we revisit an incident in Elizabeth City that captured the eyes of the nation just one year ago.

It was April 21st, when Pasquotank County Sheriff's deputies attempted to deliver a warrant for the arrest of Andrew Brown Jr. on suspected felony drug possession, when Brown attempted to pull away from the scene in his vehicle, deputies fired and Brown was killed by the bullets to the back of the neck.

Investigators later determined that the shooting was justified.

But leading up to that, there were nightly Black Lives Matter protests and demonstrations.

And in fact, some have continued to this day.

Since then, what has happened?

With us now, are Ashley Mitchell, an attorney with Forward Justice, and member of the newly established, North Pasquotank Citizens Advisory Council.

And we also have Pasquotank County NAACP president, Keith Rivers.

Thank you both for being here to provide us this one-year update on what has happened.

I wanna open up with you, Keith.

In the year, what is different?

What has changed?

- Deborah, thank you for having us.

We can see now that a lot of the community who was not engaged in the political process and the running of the city have now become engaged.

But there's an old saying that the more things change, the more they remain the same.

And many things have remained the same here in Elizabeth City.

We've seen a lot of forward progress without accountability.

Those deputies that fired, that murdered Andrew, get up and go to work every morning on our tax dollars.

There has been no reprimand as to our understanding of those deputies.

However, we, the county commissioners have formed a citizen advisory council, which is a move in the right direction.

We live in what I like to call the media desert, where our whole media base comes out of Virginia.

So we've seen a young man that has SOUL Catching News 7, is what he calls it, and he's reporting the news live as it comes.

So those are some changes that have been made at the community level.

And if I can just note the resilience of this community is mirrored every day in these protests.

This community has done what no other community has done during this time under these circumstances, which is non-violently continue the protests and not allow Andrew's name to die in vain, but to continue this journey to justice.

And our hearts always continue to go out to the Brown family.

And we will continue this fight.

So, there have been a lot of changes but a lot of things have remained the same.

- Thank you for that update.

And I wanna bring you in Ashley.

How would you describe relations between the community and the Sheriff's department?

And please feel free to establish the difference between that and the police department.

- Got you.

So, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me to the show, and having us here to speak about this issue.

Is super important for us to continue to raise this issue, both statewide and nationally.

Just so this does not get forgotten.

So Elizabeth City doesn't get forgotten.

But the relationship between the community and the Sheriff's department after Andrew Brown, there's tension.

During the whole situation there was no communication, really between the sheriff and the community itself.

When the community was broken, there was no words being said to the community to comfort, to sympathize or any of those things for the community.

So the community was broken.

It felt anger, it felt sadness, but there was no answers.

And I think that's what really brought the tension between the Sheriff's department, specifically and the community.

As far as the police department, there is a different dynamic.

And Mr. Rivers may be able to speak higher to that dynamic, because personally I live outside of the city.

So I don't have as much connection with the police department.

But as far as the police department during Andrew Brown situation, in particular, they were cooperative to the most, you know, to a certain degree compared to other areas that have had situations where black lives were lost due to the hands of police brutality and Sheriff's accountability.

It was a different dynamic for Elizabeth City, per se, with the police department than it has seen nationally with other situations.

- And to that point about this being a valuable, I mean, every life is valuable, and we're talking about, you know, Black Lives Matter.

There were many protests under that banner at the time, but oftentimes the argument is, well, this is not necessarily the perfect case under which to protest for Black Lives Matter, because there was a warrant being served, because of the history of the victim.

What would you say about those arguments around, well, you know, let's consider whether this was a case of Black Lives Matter, because after all, this individual had a record and he was trying to flee the scene.

- Is this-- - Ashley.

- Is this for me?

- Yeah, Ashley, and then I'll hear from you, Keith.

Thank you.

- Okay.

Is definitely an issue of Black Lives Matter.

Regardless of this man's past, regardless of the acts that was taken place, that's irrelevant.

What is relevant is the fact that this man was not given the opportunity to receive his due process as any American citizen is supposed to receive in this country.

So with that, yes, it is a black lives matter issue.

This man was killed in broad daylight, and was laid flat on his face after the fact, was not given any care.

There was no remorse for his life.

His life mattered.

And because his life mattered, and because he was a black man whose life was taken wrongly, it is a Black Lives Matter issue.

- And it hasn't ended.

There has been a recent incident similar to that where an individual was shot by law enforcement face down.

Keith, how would you respond to that question?

And, I know that one of the issues during the, during the time of the Andrew Brown protest was full disclosure of video cam footage and disclosure period.

What are your thoughts on that?

- Well, this was also within 24 hours of the conclusion to the George Floyd verdict, and [indistinct] verdict that happened less than 24 hours later, here we are in Pasquotank County.

What need do we have for a swat type tactical unit, prior to this, serving a nonviolent warrant?

It's important to note that they used a high powered rifle.

The bullet actually, one bullet actually went into a home of a resident across the street, through three walls.

We were also within a school, a hundred yards within the distance from a school on a Wednesday morning.

So the thought pattern, what type of thought pattern were you using when you went to serve a nonviolent warrant?

And as attorney Mitchell said, "Whatever he did prior to April 21st, is not what the issue is.

The issue is due process.

We've had a lot of people say, "Well, he was an alleged drug, "he had this type of past."

"He had... well, he..." and then you are having other shootings.

We don't see you all marching in the streets when other shootings are going on in the African American community.

And we respond this way anytime there is a shooting, a incident involving violence.

We want the perpetrators brought to justice.

In many of those shootings, we did not know who the perpetrator was.

So there was no marching or protesting.

However, we know who murdered Andrew Brown.

We know that those Sheriff's deputies fired those weapons.

We can see the amendments that have been made to the $30 million lawsuit that has been filed on behalf of the family, where there are reports that deputies that were firing their weapons, are on camera removing bullets, or altering their weapons.

And they are still at work.

And I think Deborah, that is so important to understand, and how we feel as a community, that our tax dollars, my tax dollars every day, go to pay those deputies salary.

And the only thing the sheriff could say is that he was going to institute more training.

We have a district attorney that failed to call for a special prosecutor.

This is a familiar story and an unfortunate story, and there's always the request for accountability at the end.

There has been the development, thanks to the work of a task force that you were involved in, of the citizens council.

What help, or what improvement do you expect from this citizens council?

What's it expected to do?

- This citizen advisory council is there to be a liaison.

It's very unique in its structure, because the 13 member council was not appointed by the sheriff.

There was a task force that consisted of myself, representing the NAACP, as well as the county manager, and Major Aaron Wallio from the Sheriff's department.

We built this from the ground for looking a lot at one, at, from Richland, South Carolina, which has the same type of task force.

And theirs was created before critical incident.

We are creating one after a critical incident, but the uniqueness of it is, is that it does not fall under the Sheriff's department.

It is actually under the county commissions.

And we've had a Police2Peace study, which is an outside organization that came in and utilized small focus groups, and individual interviews within the community to find out exactly how the community wanted to be policed.

And their report was released, and recommendations to their findings.

So this CAC, or Citizen Advisory Council is there to be a liaison.

They will hear complaints.

We now just, our county commissioners voted five to two, to ask North Carolina legislatures to give special legislation to allow citizens, or this review, this advisory council to review citizen appeals from investigations within the Sheriff's department.

- So this group will have a different kind of power.

And Ashley, you have been assigned to this group.

Tell us what your expectations are, and how you intend to function on that CAC.

- So my intentions, or my expectations for this review board, or this advisory committee, is to just help this community become whole again, help this community have an outlet, a space where if there is an issue, that they can bring it.

Hopefully we will work together as a team.

I'm excited to work with this amazing group of people, and come up with a solution to problems as they occur.

And hopefully try to eradicate problems before they even occur, is the goal.

- Absolutely.

Certainly.

- Ashley Mitchell, Keith Rivers, thank you so much for being so candid, and for being on the show today.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Setting the tone for news coverage lately was a breaking story by Politico, with the headline, "Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights.

"Draft opinion shows."

An initial draft opinion on "Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health" written by Supreme Court justice, Samuel Alito was leaked to the press, and reveals language clearly arguing to overturn two seminal Supreme Court decisions, that for decades have sealed federal constitutional protections of abortion rights.

The 1972, Roe v. Wade and 1992, Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

Justice Alito wrote, quote "Roe was egregiously wrong from the start, "and we hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled.

Let's hear from today's panel.

We've got professor La'Meshia Whittington of Advanced Carolina.

Shemekka Stewart-Isaacs of I Am Brilliant, and attorney Nisha Williams, legal director at the North Carolina Coalition Against Domestic Violence.

Thank you all three for being here this morning.

I wanna start off with you La'Meshia.

When you hear this opinion, especially the latter part, what concerns you most as a black woman and for black women?

- Yes, so my concern for black women is the continued attack on our healthcare options.

The reality is nearly 14% of black women are uninsured in this country compared to 8% of white women.

And so because of some of those disparate impacts we have the highest maternity, right, mortality rates.

That means that our babies of course die due to many reasons, right?

It's chronic healthcare, because we're exposed to environmental contamination and pollutions, is the lack of access to healthcare.

The closing of rural hospitals.

We've had nearly 10 closed in North Carolina alone in the past decade.

We have 30% of our rural hospitals are at risk.

So our communities are already impacted by the lack of healthcare access and healthcare options.

And this only further divides and removes options that we have.

And the other thing that really concerns me, is the fact that in North Carolina abortion is still legal.

And so that's the reality.

And there is also a law that we have that allows physicians and requires them to make known actual healthcare information to women who come in for abortions.

So that actually means telling them what their rights are.

Legally, physically.

They actually get to have a Ob-Gyn check, actual care that isn't even provided by healthcare access, because we don't have healthcare.

And so that's what's at risk, is limiting those options even further.

- Thank you.

And I wanna pull you in Nisha, because each state is gonna possibly have the power to make this decision.

What do you see unfolding in North Carolina with regard to this right to choose?

- Thanks for that question.

So right now in North Carolina, because the law is not yet been actually overturned, we currently still have the right to an abortion in North Carolina, as it was prior to this leak.

However, if the ruling does come down as indicated from the draft opinion, there are potential consequences for this.

Currently we have on our laws, a law that states that viability occurs around week 20.

And so right now in North Carolina, we are concerned that if this law is overturned, that there may be limited access to abortion in North Carolina as a result of the overturning of Roe v. Wade - Shemekka, what are your thoughts when you hear about what is happening and the possible disappearance of Roe v. Wade and that particular protection?

What concerns you most?

- The things that come to me most immediately is thinking about what transpired from the Hyde Amendment to what transpired with the Helms Amendment and what this means specifically for North Carolina and where our power lies.

We see with these ramifications of being able to control our body autonomy in writing and policy, in legislation, we are losing our power.

And until we can come up with something in writing to protect our policy, to protect our future babies, we are at the helm of whatever the majority is.

And we're at the helm of whatever the census is for pro-life.

If we're not creating something as an alternative to change this language in writing and policy.

- Well, you know, La'Meshia, you know, one of the things that stuck, that kind of stuck out for me in some of this language was, you know, the opportunity for women to go and protest for and agitate for their rights from some other legislative body, when we ought to not have to do that.

And also this is not a legislation that would only apply to women over a single thing like abortion.

If the government or if a governing entity has to be appealed to so that we can decide what we do with our bodies, whether that's making a decision about a pregnancy or even getting pregnant, that's where my concern lies.

And I wanted to know what your thoughts were about you know, just what appears to be the masculinity of this.

- That's right.

We've already seen examples of federal law being gutted, right?

And then the disparate impact on black and brown communities.

It happened when we were gerrymandered.

And when we were gerrymandered it was because, again, we've been gerrymandered over the years but here in North Carolina in the last 10 years it was the worst we've ever had in the history of the state, because federal law shifted to allow states more power to determine whether they were racist or not.

And guess what they did, they became more racist.

So we already have an example of what happens when federal oversight is removed, which is what would happen with Roe v. Wade, right?

Being overturned.

It's saying, the states, as you said, Deb, has more authority to determine more control over the people of its state.

And if we're already in a gerrymandered state, where our votes are already struggling to be evaluated.

- Guess what, it's going to make that hill a lot harder to actually traverse when we're trying to convince the same folks who have stolen our voices to say now you're trying to steal our rights and what we're doing physically with our body.

We've already seen proof of that.

So that's what's happening.

And when we talk about the disparity health impact.

In North Carolina we have to be very clear that we are already in food insecure zones.

Let me be very clear that we are already in contaminated water.

We are already in impacted polluted areas where they already don't value the body of everyday workers.

That's why they're not supporting black women who are working every day, 50, 60 hours a week at Burger King or McDonald's or being a health practitioner or a janitor.

They don't have access to healthcare because they work too much, make too little, but they work too much to actually qualify for healthcare.

These are the issues.

So this is the last thing we need is oversight to be given to a state legislature which has already proven that they don't care about us.

- I wanna ask all three of you what do you think this is about?

Those who are pro-life would say this is about pro life, but when I hear pro-life I wonder whose life are they thinking about?

What are your thoughts about the pro-life movement, the pro-choice movement over this and the final say resting in the Supreme Court?

Let me, let me start with you, Nisha.

- I think when we think about the pro-life movement what happens is we take the agency and choice away from the person who will be carrying or choosing to carry a child to term.

And when we shift that conversation from the person with the uterus to what is occurring in the uterus we completely take away the agency of that human that deserves the fundamental right to make a decision onto what will happen to their body.

When you talk about cons making considerations about do I want to have a baby?

Do I want to continue with a pregnancy?

Roe V. Wade began and, and they, some of the laws that they utilized in creating the law around Roe V Wade stem from Griswold V Connecticut, which was also about if a woman and her husband had the ability to in private make a decision about accessing birth control.

And so this conversation about what is happening in a person's body and who can make that decision is really and truly the conversation.

And that is the insidious of the pro-choice movement in that we've, or not pro-choice but pro-life movement in where we have moved the, the conversation from what are we talking about?

Are we talking about what is occurring in someone's body or are we talking about the actual person's ability to make a decision about their body?

- You know, thank you.

Shamekka, you know we're talking about pro-life, pro-choice, you had some thoughts about what our focus really needs to be on as we look at this holistically.

What are some of those thoughts?

- Yeah, very quickly I just wanna point out for the advocacy with pro-life that are also impacting this continued white supremacy issue over governing black bodies.

When I think of this through this lens and the voices of the lived experience of people in community, more specifically black women, we don't feel like we have a choice.

We don't feel like we have access.

And so the same bodies and babies they're trying to protect in utero, they're also trying to shoot down, kill and criminalize by the time they turn 14, 15 to 16.

And so I think we need to amplify what pro-life really is and what this really means.

And why is it any different than the choice we're making for the life, for the pro-life.

The choice of that mother to have body autonomy is really important.

And these advocates that are pro-life are forgetting they're in the same argument that are pushing for all lives matter instead of advocating for the safety and protection these babies that they're trying to save in utero but forget these same babies become teenagers that are now threats in our community according to them.

- And I get concerned as well about what this opens up to scrutiny.

If we're scrutinizing, if the Supreme Court is scrutinizing Roe V. Wade, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be targeting say Brown versus Board next.

La'Meshia what are your thoughts about what this opens up?

- Absolutely agree.

It will continue.

We saw the critical race theory, right, fight.

And we saw how that divided our nation, was instigated by a certain political ideation.

And so this is just again another example of what has already happened in history.

And let's really, you know how I am, I always ground with history a little bit is that at the same time that at the top of the 1900s, that black doulas and midwives were actually outlawed, was the same time that abortion laws were created in North Carolina.

Now we have to be very frank, right?

We always get called in this divide of and I always say this 'cause I step back 'cause I'm not trying to be partisan but sometimes our determination for our community is not determined by our community.

It's determined by who can swing the votes.

What is the political marginalization.

But the reality is black infants in America are now more than twice as likely to die as white infants.

And that's a racial disparity that is actually wider than in 1850, 15 years before the end of slavery when most black women were considered chattel.

So when we talk about what's already happened it's going to continue to be exacerbated.

The deficit is going to continue to deepen but we have to be very real.

If we are going to talk about a intergenerational interracial movement we have to make sure that black women are at the forefront of policies that we've never been at the forefront.

And Roe V. Wade just creates another highlight on the disparities that has been facing our communities for years when we should have, to Shamekka's point, more access to healthcare, more access to options, and support whether we determine right, our children going to full term, whatever that may mean.

We need to make sure we have security and that is provisions on the state level that is in addition to Roe V. Wade.

La'Meshia Whittington, Nisha Williams, and Shamekka Stewart-Isaacs.

Thank you three for your insights and for your commentary.

I wanna thank today's guest for joining us today.

And we invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag black issues forum.

You can also find our full episodes on PBSNC.org/blackissuesforum or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google podcast.

For Black Issues Forum I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Thanks for watching.

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