- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, as job loss impacts more black women, many are being told to start their own businesses.

But what if entrepreneurship isn't the answer?

We're exploring the realities of job loss, the pressures people face after unemployment, and what support can look like for those trying to rebuild their careers.

Coming up next, stay with us.

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(upbeat music) ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

For many Americans, losing a job is more than just a financial setback.

It can shake your sense of stability, identity, and future.

And recent reports show that black women are experiencing a disproportionate rate of job losses in certain sectors, including government and health-related fields.

Today, we're talking about the realities of job loss, the pressures many people feel to become entrepreneurs, and what support can actually look like when someone is trying to rebuild their career.

Later on in the show, we'll hear from a life coach and business strategist.

But first, I'm joined by Dr.

Katrina Burruss, a furloughed federal employee with years of experience in the medical field, who is now navigating unemployment.

Welcome, Dr.

Burruss.

- Thank you for having me.

- Of course.

I know that it's been a journey for you, right?

Economic Policy Institute reports that black women, start of 2025, we were at a 5.4% unemployment rate, but we ended the year at 7.5, and we see that number continuing to rise.

Share a little bit about your background, 'cause I want people to understand the doctor before your name, right?

- Right.

- Your background, your history, and then kind of where you are today.

- So I'm a military veteran.

I was in the US Air Force.

I served for about five years overseas in Germany, working at one of the largest medical centers in the Europe, Asia area, continent.

And I left the military to finish my degree in biology at Fayetteville State University.

So go Broncos, Bronco pride.

And since that time, I found myself pretty much climbing the career ladder from an entry level medical laboratory scientist, which is what my foundational career is in, and obtaining the certifications to do so.

Once I finished my bachelor's, I wanted to pursue my degree in criminal justice after a serious death in my family, and providing families a little bit more closure.

So I specialized in forensics.

But once I was doing that, I realized that's not what I really wanted to do.

Once I started doing the labs and different things.

So I kind of changed my career path to pursue my doctorate in health sciences, because I wanted to pursue higher level leadership roles in the field of clinical laboratory science, not only just as a manager, but on a director C-suite level.

And I knew that I needed to obtain a little bit more education, additional certifications to do that.

And was very successful in doing that.

But not realizing that it would be a gift and a curse.

- What's the curse?

- Not being able to find a stable career, because the senior level roles are very competitive.

Most individuals that are in those roles stay for a long time, until retirement.

- Makes sense, yeah.

- And there's just so much competition for those roles, actually.

- But would you say the field that you're in is an in-demand field, and there is work, it's just people are staying in the roles?

- So there's a lot of demand for the clinical lab field.

So for those that don't really know what clinical laboratory science is, because there's a lot of people that don't even know what it is, right?

So when you go to the doctor and you get your blood drawn, there are technicians that work in those laboratories that test your blood or different bodily samples, and I'm the person that oversees those individuals that are performing the testing.

So that's hospitals, that's clinics, that's pediatric offices, anywhere where there are blood tests being drawn for the community, that is public health centers.

So there is a high demand for that, and it's not something that a robot can do, like you need an actual person to do it.

- So you don't have to mention your last employer, but you were recently in a position that got furloughed.

Tell us about that experience and the feeling that you experienced when you heard the news that you would no longer have a job.

- It was very stressful.

I worked very hard in that particular role.

I was required to travel very extensively, sometimes two to three times a week across the United States, and really, it was a great role as far as expanding my skillset and exposing me to different environments and laboratory operations in a different way.

I was responsible for five mobile laboratories across the United States for a large federally contracted agency.

And when I found out that my contract was ending, it was very abrupt because there was a promise of temp to perm, so it was one of those contracts, hey, you come in, you work for us for six months, and after that six months, based on your performance, then you have the opportunity.

- Is that typical in the field?

- Not normally, but when you're looking at federal contracting, most likely.

- Okay, okay.

- 'Cause you have to kind of get your foot in the door.

- Understood.

Now, we've had conversation over the last several months about your experience in looking for a job, and it's been a frustrating one.

And one thing that you've heard a lot is, well, why don't you just start your own business?

And you're like, but I don't wanna start my own business.

- I don't wanna start my own business.

- So how is that?

'Cause you don't wanna start your own business, but what are you left with if you can't find a job?

- Well, thankfully, I have a really supportive spouse that works really hard to cover our family, but it's a very hard terrain to navigate, getting a lot of cold emails, sorry, we've decided to move forward with someone else.

You're going through a two-interview step process only to wait and not hear anything until you reach back out, which happened to me most recently.

So it can be very hard on your mental health.

- Indeed.

- Especially.

- Does it feel like folks are being dismissive to your education and your career and knowledge when they say, well, just start a business?

- Absolutely.

- Right?

I mean, you wanted to be in this career for a reason.

- Right, I've been told, why don't you just change career fields?

Maybe you've just exhausted your possibilities in that career field.

Why don't you do something different?

- But my passion is people and community, and my career field in the healthcare operational field allows me to serve the people.

I'm a servant leader.

I don't aspire to be an entrepreneur.

There takes a different level of discipline to be an entrepreneur.

Not to say I don't have it, but the level of discipline needed for an entrepreneur is different.

- Yeah, and it's okay that you don't wanna be an entrepreneur.

- I don't wanna be an entrepreneur.

- Right, you went to school for a reason.

I wanna pause there, 'cause we will talk about your, more about your interviewing journey.

But, you know, many people are navigating career transitions right now.

There are also many professionals who help individuals move through this moment, and we are gonna be joined next by a coach who works with women experiencing job loss and career transition, and we'll talk about practical ways that people can navigate these challenging times.

But first, I want us to take a look at this report on how impactful unemployment has been for black women by CBS Mornings.

One group of people hit hard by those layoffs is black women, apparently.

While the country's overall unemployment rate fell to 4.4% in the most recent jobs report, it rose to 7.3% when it came to black women.

Jerika Duncan spoke with two women who have faced prolonged unemployment to find out what's behind this trend.

- I loved my job, I loved it, and it made a difference to people.

- But Adrienne Burch's job with the Department of Agriculture was eliminated last February.

- I started crying.

'Cause I said, "Oh my God, I'm losing my job.

"I'm not prepared, I don't have enough savings."

- The chainsaw for bureaucracy.

- As Elon Musk took a chainsaw to the federal government, Burch says she felt forced into early retirement at age 54.

Today, she says she gets one third of her previous pay.

- To get to a point where you made a great salary, made six figures, and to have that ripped from you, and not because you didn't do the job well, it's painful.

- Pain that was just beginning as Burch started looking for work.

- I've applied for, I think, about 35 jobs or so.

I've gotten five rejections, most of the other ones, nothing.

- Any interviews?

- No.

- And she's not alone.

41-year-old Audrey Malone lost her corporate job in facilities management about a year ago.

- I stopped counting my job applications after I hit like 150 or something like that.

- You've applied to over 150 for 150 jobs?

- Oh, I've applied to more than 150 jobs.

I just stopped counting at 150.

And you look at it and you go, "I'm not enough.

"What's wrong with me?

"What am I doing wrong?"

- Some economists say the proliferation of artificial intelligence and the elimination of DEI programs have negatively impacted black women.

And then there's the cuts to government jobs, where black women are represented at twice the rate as in the private sector.

All of it has contributed to the more than 300,000 black women who lost or left their jobs in the first half of 2025.

- We almost are like the economic shock absorbers of what's coming to us.

- The canary in the coal mine.

- That's right.

- Harvard economist Anna Gifty Opoku-Adjiman.

- Why should people, not just black women, care about this?

- If 7% of your body wasn't working, you wouldn't be able to function.

If black women are not able to be full economic participants in our economy, our economy shrinks.

- Last month, Representative Ayanna Pressley and more than 20 other members of Congress demanded that the Department of Labor take immediate action to address the rising unemployment crisis among black women.

- This is an urgent problem.

- Ryan Wilson is co-founder and CEO of The Gathering Spot, a private networking group.

He's been organizing events in LA, Atlanta, and DC to help connect black women with opportunities.

- We have heard already that there are people that are moving through the hiring process that wouldn't have.

- But thousands more are still looking.

- We're not looking for handouts, but we're like, "Hey, somebody do something.

"Speak up for us."

And until then, we have to help each other.

- Joining us now is Cledra Gross, owner of Next Level Life and Business.

She works with women navigating career transitions, including job loss and professional rebuilding.

Welcome to the show.

- Thank you.

- So we just saw that package.

Katrina shared her story.

Share really quickly, what are you seeing women, black women in particular, experiencing when it comes to job loss, and how much of a reality is this for more people than we think?

- This is incredibly disruptive.

And it's becoming more and more common.

So I'm seeing it in a lot of black women.

And the dominant emotion is shock.

Because like Katrina, they are incredibly qualified.

- Right, that was gonna be my question.

She is a doctor, so many years of experience.

- Committed.

I didn't hear anything about a performance review being bad.

- Right.

- You know, outstanding career.

- What's happening then?

What are we missing in this new narrative that's happening for our black women?

- So I think it's important to understand the overall arc, right?

The historical context.

We have gone from legal discrimination to forced compliance through the civil rights, to huge initiatives with DEI, to now full circle a complete dismantling of those initiatives.

Now, what we need to keep in mind is that the initiatives for DEI weren't because there was this great moral awakening by corporate, it was social pressure and lawsuits.

So now that the social pressure is gone, to include people that look like Katrina and me, what you're having, bias.

There's no check on bias now.

- It alluded to it a bit in the package, but when we are lacking large numbers of black women in corporate America, and Katrina, I'll pivot this to you first, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts.

What's missing?

We heard economic impact, but what's missing culturally, socially, in the workplace when we're not present?

- Access, representation to the younger generation of scientists in my field.

My passion is bringing along young STEM professionals, especially young women in science.

And we have such a different outlook because of our background and what we've been through.

They miss the creativity, really, and they miss the gift of everything that we've been poured in along the way because we have so much to pour out.

And so we just don't get that opportunity.

- What long-term impact might it have if we continue to see this trend rise and grow?

- Well, the long-term impact will be economic.

Like in the piece, there will definitely be a financial outcome that's not positive, not just for this country, but globally.

In terms of the economic power, earning power of black women, it's very significant.

- And I didn't pull the numbers, but many black women are financially leading their households, too.

- Many.

- Right, so we'll see that trickle down into household.

So let's talk practical, right?

So we know that there's bias happening.

We know that there are challenges with interviewing.

What does someone like Katrina do?

How many interviews have you been on?

Can you keep count?

- I stop counting.

- So there's been a lot.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

Maybe share, are you finding bias in the interviews?

Are you seeing shifts of energy or?

- It's always, I did a great job.

It's always, you did a great job.

It's always, we're very impressed with your background.

But then crickets, there's really no resolve.

Like there's nothing.

So I have nothing to go on.

I've even messaged some employers and say, "Hey, can you provide me some feedback "so that I can be more competitive the next time?"

No response.

- No response at all.

- Cledra, what does she do with that?

- So really what's happening is we have an outdated strategy.

By the time you get to the interview, often there has been relationship equity where the bias isn't because Katrina isn't interviewing well or her skills aren't great.

It's that they already had a hip pocket candidate.

- I've experienced that too.

- Yes, exactly.

So it's actually relationship equity, proximity to power.

Sometimes we aren't, as black women, really engaging online and leveraging the online space like we need to.

We have to leverage that because there's no way we're going to meet them in our community.

Like the majority population, we're not in the same circles.

So you get in the same circle online.

So it's more of a strategy that needs to be updated.

- Now we also find that folks maybe in your position are applying to jobs they're overqualified for.

- Yes.

- So I take it you've done that.

- I have, updated my resume, taken things off.

- Right, so diminished ourselves, right, essentially.

Does that work?

- No.

- No, it doesn't.

(laughing) - Why doesn't it work?

- I can tell you right now, it does not work.

- Why doesn't it work?

- It doesn't work for two reasons.

First, she knows in the interview that she's talking about something that is beneath her.

And communicating that, just the energy of that, okay, that's just one way.

And the other way is they know that she's not a fit.

This is about fit.

While we can't change bias and all the other things that we know exist, what we can impact and influence is how we strategically fit in the organization in terms of the problems we solve.

And that's the key difference.

- Now, when we were getting ready to start, you said this weekend you're gonna go work on your LinkedIn.

- Yeah.

- 'Cause Cledra gave you some tips.

- She did, she did.

- So let's talk about some practical tips of online presence and what that looks like.

- Okay, so I wanna talk about baseline, what people are probably doing old school.

And that's all of the great work.

Like Katrina, I did some snooping before this.

(laughing) I did some stalking.

So she, impressive, but it didn't include the so what.

So I was talking to her to go line by line and say, why does that matter to an organization?

Because you have that skill, how could that skill be valuable to an organization?

It's not just that you did it.

How does it translate into you can solve that problem for another organization?

- So how do you practically display that on LinkedIn?

- She specifically has the change.

For example, I saw that she had Speaker.

She has a lot of intellectual property.

As I was talking to her, it all came out.

But it's not on LinkedIn.

She has frameworks that are Katrina's special sauce.

Everyone has a special sauce.

And it may take a friend to tell you because you may be so close to your special sauce.

But really drilling down and communicating it in a way that's not general.

Like if anyone could say what you said, it's not a good sentence.

- So what's an example?

'Cause I'm trying to like in my mind, think of, not that I'm looking for a job, thinking about.

(laughing) - Just sit out there for a minute.

- But if I'm trying to rephrase the things that I'm good at on LinkedIn, still looking professional, what does that actually look like?

- So Katrina, I can pull in a specific example.

She talked about overseeing the people who collect the samples when we go to the doctor, right?

Impressive, it's needed.

No one would argue with that.

But so what?

The way that she would practically do that is she was able to eliminate risk of, like what happens if you're not there?

She needs to put that.

And then bottom line impact financially if a test is misread.

So the so what?

So some numbers, some outcomes, some metrics.

So not just that I led a team, because Katrina even said it, a robot can't do that.

But someone may think, you just led the team?

I can put anyone into leading a team, but you did more than lead a team.

You understand the details and the impact of not mitigating the risk.

- That's right.

- And that's what she has to communicate.

- That feel doable?

- Yeah.

- Yeah, doable.

Someone's watching, they got laid off about a week ago, two weeks ago, a month.

In that first 30 days of being laid off, what did you do?

And then what should you do?

- Okay, okay.

I cried a lot.

I cried a lot.

And I really started to question my abilities and if I was good enough.

And I did not want to apply to anything else.

Really.

- It's frustrating.

- It was very frustrating.

I didn't really want to talk to people because it was then again, maybe this is the Lord's way of pushing you into entrepreneurship.

I don't think so.

But it looked like hope and transition.

And that one thing ended.

And what did I learn from this experience that could strengthen me for the next experience?

- Yeah.

So I don't think, I mean, I'm not the expert here.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, right?

'Cause we must feel our feelings and go through those motions.

But once we do that, what is important to do within as quickly as possible so that we don't lose momentum?

- The first thing is to separate who you are and where you are.

Who Katrina is did not change because she's been laid off.

And it's really to keep that solid, right?

And then in a practical sense, it's looking at, this is simply a skill gap in how you applied for jobs maybe 20 years ago and how you can apply for jobs now.

It's just a skill gap to close.

So the perspective on this, that this is really where our society and how people hire employees has changed.

So that is key.

And that goes to leveraging the online piece.

- Yeah.

Are there any barriers that you're seeing that are coming to surface?

And how do we overcome those barriers?

- Absolutely.

She mentioned it, the gatekeeping networks.

- Yes.

- That's real.

- That's a big problem.

- That's a huge problem.

- That's a big problem.

Meaning kind of like just being in that good old boy network of I know somebody.

- I know somebody, I know somebody, I know somebody.

- Exactly.

But people tell us all the time, it's about relationship, it's about who you know.

It's not only about it.

I think that's part of the equation.

I don't think it's the total equation.

It used to be the total equation.

Work hard and people will recognize your work.

That is an outdated strategy.

So now you have to actually connect with people.

So how do you bypass the gatekeeping networks?

That is connecting directly with the decision makers on LinkedIn.

- Okay.

- Yes.

So that gives her access.

Because people are willing to connect online.

It's a low bar.

But it's also positioning.

It's not positioning like look at all that I did, it's look at what I can do for you.

- So what does that message, or is there a message when we connect, do we just connect?

Is it an intentional connection with the message?

Have you had experience doing this?

- I have.

- And has it worked for you?

- It is working, should I say.

I'm starting to see more interaction with just reaching out.

And the biggest thing that I've noticed is on LinkedIn you can do an automatic message.

- Exactly.

- But that's not personal.

And employers, strategy leaders, they can read through that.

So I started being just myself and saying hey, my name's Katrina, I see that you work here, I'm interested in a role here, can you tell me a little bit more about how you like working for the company?

Do you think this would be a good fit for me based on what you know about me?

And that has opened the door to a lot of conversation.

- Yeah, is that a good technique?

- I think that's a great start.

I think she could optimize it a little bit and say that I noticed you're in, for example, the regulatory industry.

These are some things that I've been able to, some metrics, these are some numbers that I've been able to impact in terms of risk to the organization.

What are the risks facing your organization?

So that it's more targeted.

So if she could look at-- - Solution oriented.

- Solution oriented, that speaks to positioning where you're not just telling, you're solving something for them.

- Right, that's awesome.

And so you are a coach, obviously.

Is that an integral piece to this?

Have you gotten a coach?

- I tried.

- It didn't work out?

- It did not work out for me.

- Okay, so what makes the coaching relationship break or work?

- You know, I think with Katrina, I haven't met her, I think it's meeting her where she is.

I can see someone meeting her and thinking, you know, she should be an entrepreneur, because she has so many talents and so many competencies, but the biggest mistake a coach can make is to try to make the person something they didn't say they wanted.

So what makes a great coach, to answer on the other side, is that I want what Katrina wants for her.

And I am her advocate for what she wants.

And my philosophy is, it's out of bounds for me to want something she doesn't want as her coach.

- Well, if folks are watching, they're like, I think I might want her as my coach.

How do folks get in touch with you?

- It's Cledra.com, it's very easy to find me, it's my first name, so that's how, and we would set up a consultation.

I don't say yes to everyone, I'm just gonna be honest about that, because it's a very intimate relationship, I get to know people.

Like I said, I want to meet them where they are and advocate for them personally.

- Wonderful, and Dr.

Burruss, you're gonna be working on your LinkedIn, so folks can search for you if an employer's watching that thinks, I want her on my team.

- Absolutely.

- Absolutely.

Thank you so much, Dr.

Burruss, Khaledra Gross.

- Thank you for having me.

- Appreciate it.

- Yes, thank you.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum, and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

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