- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, more black Americans, especially black women, are choosing to own guns.

And if protection is the goal, what does it actually take to get there?

From what happens when a gun comes home, to training, safety, and what every owner needs to know.

We're breaking down how to make sure your firearm is a tool for protection and not a liability.

That's coming up next, stay with us.

- Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

(upbeat music) ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

More black Americans, especially black women, are becoming first-time gun owners.

And for most, it comes down to one word, protection.

But what does protection actually require?

What should every gun owner know before and after that firearm comes home?

Joining me are two people working directly in this space, educating, training, and shaping how people think about firearms and personal safety.

First up is Dr.

Joy Allen.

She is the owner and founder of E3 Personal Defense and In Her Peace, organizations that are focused on creating accessible, inclusive firearm education, particularly for women and underserved communities.

And next to her is James Collins.

He is the owner of Bullseye Firearms Training, where he provides practical safety-focused instruction for individuals at all levels of experience.

Welcome to you both.

- Thank you so much.

- Yeah, of course.

So Dr.

Allen, I wanna first address the rising number of black women who are now becoming gun owners.

So according to the Firearm Industry Trade Association, 87% increase since 2020.

That is a lot.

- A lot.

- Talk to us about what has been the impetus of that and where are we seeing women now as gun owners?

- Absolutely, it's been a perfect storm, honestly.

We've had social unrest, lots of political issues, just all over the place.

We won't even get into that conversation.

But then on top of that, women in general are a lot more independent now.

You have a lot more women who are single as they're getting older in age, as they're peaking in their careers.

They can afford firearms and even more, they can afford other things that they want to protect, mainly themselves, their families, and their loved ones.

And so that's where the interest is coming from.

It's just, again, that perfect storm of interest that's saying, "Hey, I can empower myself.

"I can take on my own personal responsibility "and that's what I'm going to do."

- So looking back at 2020, though, that was during the pandemic.

- Yes.

- Is there a tie to that?

- Absolutely, I think so.

There was a lot of unrest, socially, civilly as well.

We had issues with the George Floyd issue was a big one.

And a lot of people were just feeling unsafe.

And I think a lot of these women started to realize that, "Hey, I don't necessarily have a husband "or a father that can take care of me "and I can't really rely on the police.

"So let me figure out what I need to do to protect myself."

- James, bringing you in, you're a trainer.

So hopefully after we get the gun and maybe we know a little bit about the gun, we come to you, or is that the case?

Who do you see walking through the doors?

- Excellent question.

So surprisingly, many people, for the very first time when I meet them, they have zero firearms experience and they're coming to me to take a concealed carry course.

So sometimes if I have the opportunity to connect with them before the class, I always recommend that they take an introductory class first, perhaps just focused on marksmanship, gun safety, understanding kind of the do's and don'ts of operating at the firing range.

Because in many cases, if you show up for the very first time having zero experience, now you're taking a graded course with the intent of carrying a firearm in a concealed fashion.

- But ideally, so someone who is the ideal student, how many years of experience would they have had before coming in for training?

- Personally, I think the ideal student is the novice that doesn't come to the table with any bad habits.

They're showing up with an interest in the education, the safety, and they're willing to actually commit to the process.

As opposed to showing up with this microwave mentality of I wanna show up, take a class, and have a gun.

If someone is willing to invest the time and start off from the perspective of teach me how this firearm operates, how do I maintain it, what's the appropriate ammunition for it, how should I dress when I go to the range, all of those things are important as it pertains to the actual foundation of the conversation.

And then we start talking about safety and the laws pertaining to how and where and when you can carry a firearm.

I love the conversation with students when they are humble enough to say I really don't know what I don't know.

Help guide me in this conversation.

Because it's a relationship that allows us to really take them from anything they may have heard at the barbershop or the beauty salon, and we make it practical and say, okay, let's take a look at the firearms that are here and are available and see what's best for you.

What works for me may not work for you, and we have to be open-minded about that.

- Now, we just talked about the increase of black women being gun owners.

Are you seeing that as well reflected in the classroom?

- Absolutely.

I think it's important that a lot of black women are starting to take more of an independent role and considering the importance of being prepared to defend themselves.

The idea that someone else is always going to be available to defend you or protect you just isn't likely.

There are going to be scenarios where any one of us could be by ourselves and come into contact with a threat.

- Yeah, now, Dr.

Allen, you started E3 Defense, and In Her Peace, talk to us about why you started it, 'cause there was a specific thing that happened.

- Yes, so for me personally, I wasn't nervous about self-protection or anything like that if you've met my husband, at least for now I'm covered there.

For me, it was a bucket list item.

I'm blessed enough that when I turned 40, I said, you know, I just wanna learn how to shoot a gun.

I was a blade person, didn't really like guns in the house 'cause my kids were younger, and so my husband paid for me to take a class, and I really just fell in love with it just as a stress relief and a hobby.

But as I started taking more classes here in this good old state of North Carolina, I found every class I went to for a number of months, I came home crying, literally.

No women represented, absolutely no one of color, and it's very difficult to sit in a classroom for four hours, six hours, eight hours with Confederate flags, racial jokes, gender jokes.

It was very demeaning in a lot of ways, and so the entrepreneur in me kind of tipped off as well as the minister in me, and I said to my husband, we need to do something to offer people alternatives.

Not only that, but to help connect with the larger gun community, which, believe it or not, is very inclusive.

Once I got past that sort of beginner stage, I've met people in all kinds of places that are very inclusive, very welcoming, but you have to get people past that burden, and so that's why we started the organizations, and we just wanted a welcome place, and from there, of course, have branched off and become instructors and counselors, and so now we have a much more welcoming environment, even here in North Carolina.

- That's good.

Let's talk about barriers, though.

- Yes.

- What you explained in the beginning of what you saw, I feel, and I've also been to range, and I've experienced that, feels like a barrier, 'cause I don't wanna go back.

- Exactly.

- And so let's talk about some of those barriers.

We'll start here first, 'cause I think there might be a few different perspectives, but what are some barriers initially to outside of just representation, to being a gun owner, being a responsible gun owner?

- Absolutely.

James and I have talked about this many, many times.

We work together many times, and we agree on this.

One of the major barriers is financial.

It's economic, and like anything else in this country, if you have people who are economically oppressed, they're going to experience difficulties, even when it comes to their basic rights.

We have a right to vote.

We have a right to free speech.

We have all of these rights that are supposed to be guaranteed.

Our Second Amendment right is also just that.

It's a right.

But quite honestly, what we've found is those people who need the protection the most, not only the gun, but the training that comes along with it, learning how to be situationally aware, learning how to just secure your home, they can't afford it.

Even here in North Carolina, if you don't have a good at least $1,200, you're not going to be able to legally purchase, obtain, hold onto, and store firearms.

You're already going to be in violation of the law, and that's going to create more problems.

So we've tried to kind of figure out a way to bridge that gap and bring education to people that normally would not have access to it.

- What barriers have you seen?

- In many cases, it's also the barriers that we impose on each other.

When we as a community teach ideologies that say, guns are dangerous, keep them away, don't bring that around my house, don't bring that around me, don't have children around firearms.

When we create these barriers, we basically are conditioning people to say, well, I shouldn't pursue knowledge on that area, or I shouldn't pursue that topic, or my friend group would be uncomfortable if they knew I was a part of a gun club.

So in many cases, on top of those actual economic barriers that says, if I'm going to get a well-manufactured, reputable firearm, it's going to cost me on average $650, and I need to buy a great holster that fits, there's so many layers.

- So is it a red flag if a gun costs less than that?

- Oh yes.

- Okay.

(laughing) - So-- - That was quick.

- Dr.

Joy Allen and I have these conversations all the time.

When people will show up and take the cheapest gun in the gun case, there's a reason why it's the cheapest.

You don't show up at the car dealership and say, give me the cheapest car you've got.

In most cases, there's a reason why.

That specific firearm is only-- - What are the reasons?

- Commonly, it's going to be its functionality.

These firearms do not function as well as-- - You can't trust it as much.

- Exactly.

- Which makes it unsafe.

- A firearm that does not perform every single time the exact same way is a barrier.

- So let's jump to home safety then.

So if we are trying to economically protect ourselves, we do buy that firearm that is less than $600.

What would it make that we are bringing that into the home?

And I know what you're gonna say already.

But what if we have no other choice?

And how do we still use it in a safe way while protecting our home?

- First and foremost, my ideology is buy once, cry once.

If you can budget and plan for that expense and save for the better firearm, then do that.

However, you have to be realistic.

Some people just don't have the means.

So if you have to go with a cheaper firearm, then you have to master that firearm.

Figure out what type of ammunition it will function with the best and train with that firearm.

If there are any specific quirks about that firearm, you need to figure it out on the front end as opposed to waiting until there's an actual threat in your home and now you realize that this firearm malfunctioned.

- Yeah.

So we are either buying one that is worth it or we're learning one that may not be.

How do we keep it safe at home?

We talked about safe options before in the green room.

- Education is always going to be key.

So that's where James and I can come in.

You can get education in many different places, but we like to think that we're the best for the dollar.

(laughing) And we have the reviews to prove it.

But it's very important that you fill that gap with education.

If we are safe in our operation, then even a less than optimal firearm is going to be safe in our home.

But that goes beyond learning how to use the firearm.

You've got to learn how to talk to your family, how to train your children if you have kids in the house, how to store it correctly as we briefly mentioned.

All of those things will help to ensure that it becomes, as you mentioned earlier, a tool for you and not a liability.

- Right.

So kids, that was one of my biggest things.

You said the same.

I came to understand that it needed to be in the home but the kids have been to training.

I know you've trained kids and I think that that's amazing.

How do you approach training kids and how do we in the house help our kids understand the importance of safety?

- I think first and foremost, it's important to remember they're children.

So don't talk to them like they're adults.

Try to break this down to the lowest common denominator of safety.

We want you as the child who's in the same house as a firearm to be safe.

In many cases, I start with the basic principles of safety that I teach adults.

Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.

If you see a firearm as a child, go and get an adult.

I don't want this child to think I'm taking this class so if I see a gun, I can handle it like I am an adult.

First and foremost, I teach children not to touch firearms.

In the event they have to touch the firearm, I teach them the appropriate way to pick one up, the appropriate way to fire a firearm, the appropriate way to check for safety.

And as they get older, I want them to have the confidence to know that they have the appropriate approach to firearms to handle it safely.

- What are some legal things that folks need to know before they bring a gun into the house or even before they go purchase a gun?

- Yes, so they need to know when they can use it.

That's one of the main things.

There are a lot of misconceptions.

People think I have a gun, now I'm safe.

If anybody bothers me, if I'm losing a fight, I can shoot.

That's what they wanna think.

None of those things are correct.

Firearms legal issues differ from state to state so it's very important to then make sure you get into a concealed carry class.

That's where you're going to learn all of the legal requirements for not only purchasing the firearm but maintaining it.

You're also gonna learn what it means to legally defend yourself with deadly force.

And there are lots of caveats that people need to know about.

I promise you what they see on social media is not correct.

It is a quick ticket to prison.

(laughs) So we need to know that.

- Good to know.

Good to know.

So another level of safety is the concealed carry, right?

People who go outside with those firearms.

James, what do we need to know when-- (laughs) - Perfect start, right?

- Okay, yes.

- So as you start talking about choosing to carry a firearm in a concealed fashion, that's where the importance of the size and shape of your firearm, the material, like the actual fabric that your clothes are made out of, that also plays a role.

- Wow, why?

- So for example, synthetic fabrics do what we call print, meaning show the presence of the firearm.

- Okay.

- Far more than say just a basic cotton.

- Okay.

- Those are things-- - And you're saying that that might be a trigger in community if someone sees that you are-- - Yes.

- Especially as a black person.

- Exactly.

- Okay.

- 'Cause the point of it being concealed is so that no one knows I have it.

- Fair.

- If I were going to show it in that fashion, I just as well wear it in what's called an open carry, because North Carolina allows an open carry legally for law-abiding citizens.

- With or without any paperwork?

- If you can legally purchase the firearm and you're legally allowed to maintain a firearm, then yes, you do not have to have any training, you don't have to complete any qualifications to openly carry a firearm in North Carolina.

- Okay, so what does that look like?

I get pulled over.

I can legally have my firearm open out in the open?

- It needs to be in plain view of the officer.

In many cases, you'll hear people say, put it on the passenger seat of your vehicle if you're having this interaction with law enforcement.

One of the biggest problems with that is if you've got a jacket or a purse or something along those lines, you put on brakes, it falls and flops on top of your firearm.

In that instance, it's now concealed.

- Wow.

- And you just introduce yourself to a gun charge.

- Okay.

So you do encounter a traffic stop.

Do you automatically tell the officer-- - Absolutely.

- I have a firearm?

- Yes.

- One of the most important things is to understand what you're obligated to do as a concealed carry permit holder.

And one of those things is to disclose and display.

Meaning I have to disclose that I have a firearm.

And I also disclose where my firearm is.

In the event the officer asks, I also will present my concealed carry permit.

I think it's important to note, if you know you're introducing a firearm to the conversation, you have to read the room.

Read the posture of the officer.

Be very deliberate and very methodical about your words and your actions.

I recommend if the sun has set, turn on all of your interior lights.

Lower your windows all the way.

- Okay.

- Because you want this officer to feel safe and you wanna be safe going through this traffic stop.

- You mentioned earlier, Dr.

Allen, right, we can't pull it out in a fight.

- Correct.

- Can't just, you know, sling the gun around.

However, if we are in a situation where we do find ourselves in need of using our weapon, what are those situations?

And do you find that most people are actually ready to use the weapon?

- In general, 'cause we could get into a lot of legalities here, but in general, the moment that you are threatened, that your life is in danger, or there's a reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or rape, that's when you can basically use justifiable deadly force.

In terms of people being ready, there are so many caveats to that, and there are so many things that feed into that being ready.

Again, I'll go back to training.

A lot of people don't realize, most of these incidents, they're gonna happen three to five seconds before the fight is already decided.

So if you can't get to that firearm and get three to five shots on target in those three to five seconds, you're already in a losing battle.

That being said, we need to train more.

Just having a firearm is going to do nothing for us.

And we can look at even domestic violence statistics and see that, at how many of, unfortunately, these victims have been basically victimized with their own firearms, simply because they lacked training and had a false sense of security.

- And I wanna make a clear caveat, and I wanna look into the camera so the viewers understand this.

This is not your training, okay?

So this is, we are not gonna be held liable for anybody saying, "Well, they said on Black Issues Forum."

It is very important that people understand, get really familiar with their weapons.

I mean, that's been my biggest concern is, okay, sure, I understand, I have the knowledge, but can I actually use it?

And I know, well, maybe I don't know, but I've heard in my training that, right, we shoot to kill, essentially.

- Absolutely.

- But to me, I feel like, I don't know that I could actually do that, right?

I would shoot to maim so I can run away.

But do you-- - I would say I hear that from a lot of women.

But then I would turn that around and say, would you kill to protect your child?

- Oh, of course.

So yeah, if my kids are in the picture, most certainly.

But if it were just-- - But here's the thing.

- I don't know.

- You're worth just as much.

And that child needs their mother, right?

And so that being said, it's really, really important for us to be spiritually, emotionally, and mentally ready as well.

Now, we don't teach shoot to kill.

We actually teach shoot to stop the threat.

And we're gonna teach you how to aim for center of mass to ensure a couple of things.

One, that you hit the bad person and they stop doing the bad thing, right?

But then also, we wanna protect you from liability.

Every bullet hits something.

There's no such thing as a miss, only unintended hits.

So if you miss the assailant because you're aiming for a kneecap, then you're gonna be responsible for the dog or the child that you do hit.

So we're gonna teach students in these classes, these defensive classes, to aim for center of mass, not trying to kill anybody.

We wanna stop the threat.

Now, if they happen to die, they invited themselves and you into that situation.

That is not murder, that is self-defense.

And that's where the difference comes in.

- Okay, all right, thank you for that.

- Absolutely.

- I wanna talk a little bit about legislation.

- Mm.

- I think there, like with many things, some confusion around who can do what.

And even with the concealed carry laws, I feel like maybe back in 2020, 2021, there started to be conversation about what that looked like.

What are some things that are coming down the pipeline with legislation or decisions around gun ownership that maybe we should be aware of?

- Wow, a lot, do you wanna start there?

- So when we start talking about what's coming down the pipe, there's so many conversations that have been started around firearms and around the concealed carry, around constitutional carry.

These conversations have been swirling for decades.

And what happens in many cases, people start to hear, they're talking about banning this thing.

- Yeah.

- Everybody goes to buy that thing.

- Right, yeah.

- Right, they're gonna make this harder to get, go buy that thing.

So people flood the market.

We start talking about the purchasing process.

Prior to 2022, I think it was, it took much longer to purchase a handgun.

Going into the average gun store to purchase a firearm could take you quite some time.

But if you already had a concealed carry, it was a relatively painless process.

So fast forward, now we've done away with the purchase permit.

- Okay.

- Now you can go in as a law abiding citizen.

You're gonna have to go through a federal background check, but you can purchase a firearm much easier.

And so there was a lot of people who just basically didn't agree with the idea of the purchase permit.

And I understood a lot on that side of the conversation as well.

But I could also understand why they felt there should be a purchase permit.

I think that was an antiquated law that needed to be modified and done away with.

And I think we got that one right.

In some cases, I think we're gonna make some decisions that are going to basically say, if those who are advocating get what they want, it'll basically say, if you're a law abiding citizen, you can carry a firearm concealed without having a concealed carry permit.

And I think that's going to lead to more people getting gun charges because they don't understand the law as it pertains to when and where they can carry and then when and where they can use deadly force.

- Anything you wanna add to that?

- I absolutely agree.

I think we're seeing a trend right now across the country where state by state, there are lots of discussions, including North Carolina, about whether we should be constitutional carry state or whether we should be a permit list state.

And again, just echoing what James said, of course, it's a right.

I won't argue that part, but the part that I'm challenged with is how are people going to get the education?

It almost feels like a trap because if people don't go to that concealed carry class, again, they're not going to learn the laws and these laws change daily.

- And you mentioned something that triggered a thought state to state.

So let's say I'm driving with my gun, I'm headed up North.

How do I know through my travels what I might need to understand in the encounter?

- If you have not attended the appropriate courses and gotten the training and learned that, oh, by the way, there's an app that will tell you about state by state firearm laws.

If you've never attended the classes, then you have no knowledge.

So you're walking into what I would consider to be a trap.

- So what would you say ideally, some people go to training one time, right?

What is the ideal amount of training?

Is it yearly that you need to do a refresher?

What does that look like?

- That's going to look different for different people, but that's why we try to also feed into the hobby of firearms, right?

Get into a gun club, get infiltrated into the two-way community, if you will, embed yourself there.

There's so much fun.

You can get into competition.

It helps your children to learn discipline.

Your children can go to school on scholarship and shoot on the rifle club.

People don't know about these things.

And so getting involved, that keeps you fresh with your skill, but it also gives you something to look forward to.

You're not going to kind of dull out.

You know, it's one of those things, if you don't use it, you're gonna lose it.

So I recommend at a bare minimum that anyone who's serious about defending themselves go to the range and spend 30 minutes once a month, bare minimum.

In addition to that, you can do dry fire.

Dry fire is basically sitting at home in front of your television, triple checking to make sure your firearm is absolutely clear and empty.

And then just going through drills with your empty firearm.

That translates and it helps your brain to understand this is a tool that I'm accustomed to and if I need it, I know how to use it.

- Anything to add?

- 100% agree.

And I like the idea of, like you said, get invested into the gun culture.

Start having open dialogue with individuals who also are interested in firearms.

You know, myself, I'm a military veteran.

So as Marines, we talk about guns a lot.

And we'll easily say, "Hey, look, let's just go meet at the range."

Instead of, "Hey, let's go to the bar and grab a beer.

"Let's go to the range."

We'll just go and shoot for a while and make it competitive.

- How can folks find you?

- They can find me on social media.

My name is James Collins.

Also, my business is Bullseye Firearms Training.

I'd love to connect.

- Awesome.

Dr.

Allen, how can they find you?

- I'm also on social media, E3 Personal Defense and E3PersonalDefense.com.

I would love to meet and help anyone that wants to help.

- Thank you, Dr.

Joy Allen, James Collins.

Thank you both.

- Thank you for having us.

- Thank you.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) ♪ - Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.