- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum," we're diving deep into the Israel-Hamas conflict.

From the historical roots to present day pain points, we'll unpack the complexities and break down how it all began, what forces continue to fuel the flames and if there can be a resolution right after this.

- [Announcer] "Black Issues Forum" is a production of PBS North Carolina with support from the Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation.

Quality Public Television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum."

I'm Kenia Thompson.

It's hard to ignore the gruesome images that we've all seen by now as a result of the Israel-Hamas War.

This conflict has gripped viewers all over the world, not just this year, but for decades.

And today, we wanted to focus on the saga between these two forces that have been locked in a struggle for land, identity and survival.

To help us understand how these two nations got to this point, we want to invite to the show Political Analyst, Steve Rao, and Executive Director of The Green Majority as well as NC State Professor La'Meshia Whittington.

Welcome to the show.

- It's great to be here.

- Of course.

So there's a lot to talk about and I'm sure as always, we're gonna feel like we don't have enough time.

But LA, I wanted to start with you.

This history goes back so far, farther than some of us even know.

I'd love for you and Steve both, but you starting first to walk us through some of the historical origins of the Israel-Hamas conflict.

- Sure.

In understanding where we are at present day, Kenia, you stated it.

It is imperative for us to really analyze historically where this all began.

And so, over 100 years ago, we know of a country that's present day named Britain.

But over 100 years ago, Britain made the decision to colonize India.

Now, why is this important?

We'll hear in just a moment.

But in that colonization of India, that became Britain's second foremost power in the world, in the globe.

And so, Britain wanted to continue to expand that power across the Middle East.

And when critical area, geography, when we talk about a geographical region that was very important, was [indistinct] because that was a quicker way for the troops to come out of India into these other areas across the Middle East.

And why did Britain want those areas?

Because of natural resources.

They wanted to be able to access those wells, right?

Those oil wells and other natural resources that were had in these other countries.

Well, guess what?

Palestine was a part of that landscape that many years ago.

It was seen as a fertile area for colonization.

And so, as it led into the World War several years later, Britain entered into this agreement with the French and with the Russians, and this agreement became the Allies.

And these Allies created a treaty amongst them that decided that they were going to take down what was known as the Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman Turkish Empire.

And if folks read history, we really have to know where this began, right?

The Ottoman Turkish Empire had the Arab nations under their rule, under their subjugation.

And so, the British were like, "Well, we need to take down the Ottomans.

If we can break down their stronghold, then we can actually gain ownership of all of these nations across the Middle East."

When we talk about Persia, Egypt, we're talking about a vast expansion, that's what happened.

And at that time, Germany actually sided with the Ottoman.

So you begin to understand the world wars, what came out of what we saw with the German Holocaust and the impact on the Jewish people.

But what we have to understand is that Palestine and the indigenous Palestinian people were a part of a plan that they didn't consent to and it was decided by British.

And what they did, unfortunately, Britain made the decision is they made a promise to the indigenous Palestinian people in the Arab nations that they would support them in maintaining a stronghold in their land for self-determination.

But then Britain secretly made another promise to the people, the Jewish people, that they would support their desire to get to a homeland.

And those two promises behind each other's backs, that is what has led into this conflict that we see today.

So we have to be very clear that when we see the Jewish population that then migrated into Palestine, that conflict in the 1900s, that began because a promise was made by an empire that didn't actually consider the indigenous people and didn't ask their consent before it began.

And that contract and that conflict has now ensued to where we are today in the United States since that time of the World Wars, by the way, has had to play a brokering role of trying to create peace between the two empires, right?

The two folks that are in state, the Palestinians who are the indigenous, and of course, the Israeli Jewish folks who have moved in.

And so, that's where the United States is in and I know we'll talk about that more, but that's a little bit more of the history to understand who actually played a role in the conflict that we see today.

It's historical.

- Wow.

Steve, anything you wanna add there as far as some of that origin that La'Meshia- - Well, I really appreciate the history, and I'll do my best to add on to what Professor Whittington has said.

But I think at the end of the day, first of all, I attended Emory University and had the great honor of working at the Carter Center.

Former president Jimmy Carter lectured on this.

As a young student, I got to attend some of his lectures, take some classes.

And what I learned even at Emory many, many years ago was that this issue is actually a pretty simple issue, although it's a very complex problem to solve.

And it's really about, there's one Jewish state in the world, 22 Arab states, and the Jewish state in Israel came into being in 1947 when the UN made this declaration.

In 1948, Israel became an independent state even after the Arab-Israeli war.

But the Palestinians and Muslims around the world and Arab nations never accepted Israel as an independent state.

And so, you've got the Jewish state that wants independence and freedom, and then you have Palestine.

Now, I could be here for a very long time going through each war, but the conflicts have occurred.

So the big one was in 1967 when Nasser from Egypt said, "I want to annihilate Israel."

But then Israel attacked Egypt and Syria and emerged victorious and claimed much of Palestine and the Gaza Strip.

Then there was a Yom Kippur War in 1973 and Egypt again prevailed.

And time and time again, these conflicts have gone back and forth.

But what's never worked, we're gonna talk about today a two-state solution.

This whole notion of land for peace, we often forget in 1978, Egypt offered, I mean, Israel offered Egypt the Sinai Peninsula, which was larger than Israel, had a lot of oil, and that led to the Camp David Accords, which was negotiated by President Jimmy Carter.

Even in 2000, Israel offered Palestine 95% of their provinces, and it still didn't work.

Suicide bombers went in, and now we've got Hamas, which we're gonna talk about in a minute.

So at the end of the day, it's a very simple problem.

One nation wants independence, Israel, and we cannot have the two states exist in peace, which is really what Israel would want and what the Palestinian Authority wanted, but it never happened.

But we've had patches of peace.

But here we are today with the same conflicts that were like Professor Whittington said, you know, during the World Wars, World War I, and of course shortly after World War II.

- Right, so you mentioned Hamas, and so the formation of Hamas didn't happen until 1987.

La'Meshia, how did this contribute to the conflict, and what role did it play in it?

- Right, you know, since we're talking here, and thank you analyst Rao for really running down also what was happening illegally, right?

These are discussions that have been high government conversations again in the absence of conversation with the people.

And so what is a response of the people?

What is a response of an impacted folks?

Well, let's talk about again a little bit more history.

So the United States has been a central player in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for more than half a century, and so we became involved shortly after World War II.

So the wars in 1948 to 1967 created some one million Palestinian refugees, one million.

And so the survivors and their descendants, mostly living in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria, they claim the rights to return Israel, but that was supported by a 1948 United Nations General Assembly resolution.

So when we see there's constantly what we see, foreign powers, governmental conversations that are being codified into either resolutions, treaties, or laws that is still giving promises to communities, in this instance to the Palestinians to say, "Okay, we'll support you in making sure that you can return home since you're a refugee."

But then at the same time, here is, as analyst Rao said, there's conversations still happening with other powers that say, "Well, we're going to help the establishment of this nation to belong to the Israeli people."

This is what's occurring, and the conflict rests, unfortunately, on the shoulders, and then the violence impacts the people.

So when we talk about Hamas, that actually began as a political party.

Now we understand the violence, but we have to even understand political parties are in play.

It's governmental.

And then we get into the point of then where are the people in the middle of this conflict?

Where are the people who are the refugees?

Where are the people that were even brought over during the Holocaust, the Jewish one?

What are happening to these folks who are in the conflict of a government-to-a-government impact?

And that's what we're seeing in that outgrowth of Hamas.

Hamas wasn't just created last year.

You said it, it's 1987.

This was a response, and they are one of several political parties.

Of course, we know they have been designated as a terrorist group for reasons that as analyst Rao, violence, suicide bombing.

But we have to understand the origin of what is an outgrowth of a war, what is an outgrowth of one million refugees.

Where are the militant groups we saw come out of that?

But where are also the peaceful groups that are not getting as much news and support in media?

Because they all exist because it's a conflict that was created outside the vacuum of the community.

- Steve, any conversation or contribution that you wanna add to how Hamas is seen and its role in the conflict?

- Well, it's always hard to follow Professor Whittington, but Hamas' mission is annihilation of Israel, and they are a terrorist organization.

And yes, they came into power in 1987 and then took over Palestine government in 2007, much like the Taliban in Afghanistan.

And I'm gonna talk about that at the end of the show today because I do think there's some similarities in foreign policy lessons learned from 9/11 US foreign policy and what Israel is doing now.

But at the end of the day, I think that it's clear that, you know, the Hamas organization wants to get rid of Israel, and they have infiltrated Palestine.

It's no longer run by the Palestinian Authority.

National Security, Jake Sullivan, just met with the head of Palestine, Abbas, and he did say that they wanted to, he supported Israel continuing to go after Hamas but didn't know whether that would be best in the long-term interest.

But the United States still isn't supporting what the UN is calling for, which is a ceasefire.

Now, you know, President Biden, the US, I agree with Professor La'Meshia Whittington that the United States is clearly the one nation that is actually taking a stand on this issue.

So even other nations that were involved in this conflict, whether it's China that was trying to establish relationships with the Arab states or Russia that's been over the years trying to establish relationships with Israel, it's only the United States that's coming forward and saying, "We stand with Israel," publicly.

But privately they're saying, "Look, you need to not, you know..." 'cause we haven't talked a lot about the blockades.

And there are 2.2 million people living in Palestine, 10,000 or more dead today, no electricity, no power.

And this is a standard thing, the blockade, you know, so there's a call for more humanitarian assistance, but that's where we are today.

And I think this conflict, as long as Bibi Netanyahu is in power, I think that it's gonna drag on.

He's gonna play this as long as he can if he stays in power, which I think is questionable at this point.

- Yeah, well, we talked about US' involvement.

La'Meshia, you brought that up.

Has there been any backlash from our involvement?

Are we putting ourselves in a predicament here by getting in the middle?

- Well, I think that's a great question.

[laughs] And still years ago, as you know, we've really, you know, both analyst Rao myself have really attempted to ground education in this space of saying, okay, this is how long we've been involved.

We've been involved since 1940s.

We've been involved since the World Wars but more recently has been the impact.

We have attempted as a nation to be what, you know, has been considered a neutral party to try to strike that two-state deal, and analyst Rao mentioned that.

And what is that two-state deal?

It was this agreement where the people of Palestine said, "Okay, we are willing to, as long as you create a border, we will stay on this side of the border and claim this half for Palestine.

And on the other side of the border, guess what?

Israeli Jews can claim that side as Israel."

That's a two-state agreement, right?

And so the United States was a part of that discussion to help broker that deal.

But unfortunately, we saw that deal begin to deteriorate as recent as 2014.

And then, it imploded virtually in 2017 under the Trump administration, when unfortunately that administration decided to slash bilateral aid to the Palestinians.

And then, our nation at that point stopped becoming neutral because we relocated the US embassy to Jerusalem.

This was the first time that we stepped into creating a side when our role has been for years, trying to broker a peace agreement between two groups of people and families and folks on the ground who had nothing to do with this.

All of a sudden we become, we're no longer neutral and that created a heavier conflict and chaos when we decided to place our embassy there and stake our claim.

And so, this created an uptick in violence.

It was already a violent situation.

And so, now what we see is under this administration, President Biden administration, the US has had to work to create that diplomatic aid to Palestine again to attempt to create a relationship as a peacekeeper, as a neutral party.

We haven't done to [indistinct] here we are publicly having to back up what the previous administration said, and that was we were pro-Israel while privately having to navigate brokering that relationship that was broken.

And so, there's been eight, so under 2016 memorandum, the United States committed to providing nearly 4 billion to Israel each year, including 500 million from missile defense.

But then now what we look at is the United States gave more than $6 billion in aid to the UN Palestinian Refugee Agency between 1950 and 2018.

That's been our role.

And so, there's going to continue to be aid given from the US to both sides.

So we even have to understand where we are and exactly the impact of being very critical about elections and what our administrations are prioritizing.

It is very crucial to understand this historical and the policy overlay and the contracts that are made before the next election cycle because whoever's elected in or reelected, they either uphold what's about to happen or they're gonna destroy even further that peace that we're having to broker.

And we have to be very careful and cautious of our role as it has been since the 1940s.

- Yeah.

What other countries are supporting Israel at this time?

Steve?

- Yeah, well, I can take a shot at that.

Well, right now, there's only 10 countries in the UN that are supporting Israel, but 170 countries are against Israel.

So I think Britain is in support of Israel and a lot of the Western countries.

But the bottom line is that it, there's just not a lot of support other than the US.

And it has become a political hot potato nationally in the midst of a presidential election.

I mean, President Biden, we often forget that, if you look at Michigan, 200,000 Arab Americans, President Biden won Michigan a swing state by 150,000 votes.

There are a lot of Muslim leaders saying they're not gonna support Biden for reelection.

Even in North Carolina, there was a request for the Raleigh City Council for a resolution asking for a ceasefire.

And so, these things are gonna ripple into local politics, national politics, and it's a hard issue, right?

And I think at this point, I think we have to pray for both Israel and Palestine because there's innocent civilians dying on both sides of this conflict.

But as I've said, as long as Netanyahu is in power, he's a hardliner.

And I was gonna talk about this at the end, but what I'll say is that, whenever a nation is attacked by a terrorist organization, it invokes an emotional response.

So when you look at 9/11, when we were attacked by Al-Qaeda, President Bush and the United States government, the United States Military went after the Taliban, which led to a two-year war.

Eventually we got into Iraq.

Over 3,000 soldiers dead in America and $8 billion.

And the same thing is now happening.

As long as this draws out and Prime Minister Netanyahu goes after Hamas like this, he runs the risk of isolating himself from the Arab world, having more countries against him, and it could actually cost him a lot economically and might even cost him his term in office.

So, I think it's just really interesting to see the situation unfold.

Next year, we'll have a new president, whether it's Biden or Trump or whoever, and we'll have to kind of see how this plays out over the next few months.

- This wasn't part of the lineup for the questions, but I am curious about how this will impact our decisions when we go to vote for a president next year.

That's right around the corner.

What should we be paying attention to or looking out for in our candidates' motives around this war?

La'Meshia, I'll go to you.

- Yeah, it's a great question and I'll really restate and reframe some of my last comments.

When we go to the ballot box, and I want folks to know that when we are heading to 2024, voter ID in North Carolina, you have to have that ID, so be prepared.

And though that deadline is coming up now, before 2024, let's ground that.

But two, in February, is the first time we actually vote in February.

And remember, you have to go back out again, two times in November.

So be prepared to vote twice.

We have to be ready.

And then, when we get to that ballot box, we need to know who is on the ballot and be informed by not just the who, but what are they amplifying?

I say this as a professor, I say this as being an independent, when I say political party, I try to give as much neutral facts.

We have to ask the question, what contracts exist?

That's why folks I hope are tuning into "Black Issues Forum" and being well-informed because it's all about what contracts existed with the previous administration.

And the current administration, are they fulfilling those contracts or they trying to navigate and negotiate us out of a dire situation, which is what we are in currently?

And if we reelect, we understand what this administration will continue on, and we understand it's renegotiation, but if we elect a new administration, we have to ask the question, what exactly is your administration going to do with what's already been set in motion?

And if they can't answer that question, then they are just going from an emotional response to captivate the people where our emotions are, not where the facts are, and we can't afford our emotions to do a contract that we didn't write.

- The Black Caucus was recently in the news.

Anything you can share with us there on their perspective and their taking sides?

Le'Meshia.

- Steve, I don't know if you had comments.

Not so much.

When I look at it, and I'm not really familiar with the Black Caucus' recent statements.

So just to play neutral.

Unless I'm informed, I try not to give my opinion on where folks are.

I think it's a great question and something I would love to look into a little bit deeper.

- Okay, Steve, any thoughts about that?

- No, I mean, I just think that we have to continue to monitor what any caucus or organization is gonna say about this as I've said that.

You know, I do think that this has become a really divisive issue in America in terms of, you know, the US foreign policy, President Biden is now running a nation in the middle of two wars, Ukraine and Israel has requested billions of dollars of aid.

He is doing his best as our president to support Israel, which was attacked in a horrific attack on October 7th, but at the same time cannot join the UN in asking for a ceasefire, which is alienating him from Muslim voters, many Muslim leaders saying they're not gonna support the president.

And in this election it's the electoral votes.

You lose three or four swing states, you could lose the presidency.

So it does look like this will be a rematch between President Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

I would not count out Ambassador Haley.

You never know.

I do think that the Republicans, if they do want to win the White House, may want to put her as the nominee, because then you'll have a 50 year age difference between the President of the United States and the nominee of the Republican Party.

And let's not forget, a British Indian is the Prime Minister of India, Rishi Sunak, which I find ironic that, you know, they were colonized by, well my parents are from India.

But, anyway, yeah, I think it's a really difficult situation.

So we have to pray for Biden, President Biden, pray for Israel, pray for Palestine, and just pray for our nation.

And for anyone here at home, whether they're people of Jewish faith, the Palestinian people, we pray for any loved ones that they have, because that's where the conflict really hits home.

I mean, I heard yesterday at our Hanukkah celebration in Mooresville, a woman whose husband went back to Israel to fight, to leave his wife and children.

Really emotional, right?

Or people knowing that their loved ones are died or hostages or suffering.

So that's really what brings a lot of emotion to my heart.

- A lot of emotion.

As we kind of wrap up our conversation, we've got a few minutes left here, La'Meshia you know, there's so many challenges, big challenges that are blocking the achievement of a resolution to the conflict today.

What do you think some of those challenges are, and do you think a resolution can be made?

- Yeah, I mean, so you know, recently President Biden reaffirmed as the United States support for our two state solution, calling for that separate Israeli and Palestinian state, and folks to be able to live in you can say somewhat harmony, legally with one another.

But the outlook for that two state solution is very grim.

It's very bleak because of the two sides are aggravated by what we call the Abraham Accords.

That doesn't just include the Hamas.

It actually includes also that policy that created conflict that we need to dig deeper into to understand.

And so this year there was a joint Israeli and Palestinian poll that found that 52% of Israel's Arab citizens, and we talk about Palestinians, they support a shared state with equal rights for Jewish and Palestinian citizens to live in harmony compared to only 20% of Israeli Jewish citizens agreeing.

And so about 1 in 3 Palestinians said they would support such a plan.

So I do have to say as an Afro indigenous woman whose people is from America when it was named Turtle Island, this sounds very familiar.

- Yeah, and that's what I would end with that.

I mean, we've ideally, that's the solution that works, a two state solution, a free independent Israel and a free Palestine.

And the only hope I have is that it was President John F. Kennedy, who once said, "Never negotiate outta fear, but never feared to negotiate."

And there has been instances in the past where we've had successful negotiations, whether it was the Camp David Accords, whether it was giving back the Sinai Peninsula, you know, to Egypt, whether it was in 2000 when they offered, you know, land to the Palestinians.

So we can offer something that each side is willing give up so that we can arrive at a solution that brings peace to the Middle East.

And a peace in the Middle East is in the best interest of the United States of America.

It's in the best interest of the rest of the world.

There's one Jewish state, there's 22 Arab states.

Israel is a nation smaller than the nation of El Salvador.

It's a small nation, but they just want, you know, and they've been attacked.

And as long as Prime Minister Netanyahu's in power, my only fear is that this war will drag on.

I do not believe that he's gonna want a two state solution, but hopefully President Biden, Secretary Blinken and Jake Sullivan can negotiate significant diplomacy and resolve this conflict this year.

- Thank you.

Thank you, Steve.

Steve Rao, La'Meshia Whittington, thank you so much once again.

- Happy holidays.

- Happy holidays.

We invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

Thanks for watching.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

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