- [Kelly] State lawmakers prepare for possible veto overrides to boost funding for private school scholarships and to force local law enforcement to cooperate with immigration officials.

This is "State Lines."

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[upbeat music] ♪ - Hi, everyone, welcome back to "State Lines."

Joining me today, a lot of good friends and better analysts.

Cardinal & Pine's Billy Balls to my right.

Senator Jay Chaudhuri of Wake County joins us again, and beside him, Senator Vickie Sawyer of Iredell and Mecklenburg Counties, and in seat four, John Locke Foundation's Brooke Medina joins us.

Hello, everyone.

- Indeed.

- Hello there.

- I was worried about a slowdown after the election, but off-camera, we're saying the fun just could be beginning, Senator Chaudhuri.

- It never ends.

- I wanna ask you about that.

We're gonna start with you, Senator.

Legislative leaders are gonna call a session next week, they say, to potentially address gubernatorial vetoes and consider more Hurricane Helene recovery funding.

We're only six weeks from the year 2025 and two months away from the next legislative session.

So this gives those Republican super majorities in the State House and the Senate, a few more weeks to more easily override some of those remaining gubernatorial vetoes Outstanding legislation, Senator Sawyer, does not carry over into the next legislative session.

So that's the rules of the game for now.

I guess you can't change that rule.

Keep these old bills alive.

However, both of you came in May, and here it is, we're on the backside of this year.

And you're still having to drive back and forth and get engaged on these one-off sessions.

What's the tone of that?

What's the energy level like heading into the end of the year, knowing you're just gonna start over in six weeks?

- Pure joy and fun.

I've missed Senator Chaudhuri the whole time, and you know, kind of like one of the greatest poets of our time, Eminem said, "Guess who's back?"

[panel laughs] We really never leave.

And so if you looked at our adjournment resolution, we'd always planned to come back for these three days.

The Senate, as Senator Chaudhuri will know, is that we're always ready to work.

The House is a little bit different on that side.

So instead of the three full days of legislative session, what you're gonna see is the House come back on Tuesday and address some certain things, and then us on Wednesday.

But don't forget, there will be three full days of work 'cause on Monday, Government Oversights, it's gonna bring out the North Carolina Office of Recovery and Resiliency.

And guys, it's just really, really bad still yet again.

They're asking for an additional 175 million when we have over 1,500 people that have been promised help.

It has not been delivered.

This is from Hurricane Matthew.

So we're talking about it could be at least 10 years for some of these people are helped.

You couple that with what's happening in Western North Carolina.

We're gonna take a look.

It's a general assembly, and I know that our counterparts on the other side will too, help us figure out a better way to help North Carolinians moving forward so we do not repeat these sins of the past for our neighbors in the West in the future.

- So Chaudhuri, what do you make of the state's ability to help its fellow citizens when times strike because there are some outstanding, millions of outstanding dollars out there from a previous hurricane several years ago, and then Helene, which made history for the western part of the state.

I don't wanna point fingers at any political parties or anything, and this is a process game at this point.

What do you think is gonna happen these next six to eight weeks before we get into a new legislative session?

- So I think there are a couple of things.

I mean, I think, one, you're gonna have the Oversight Committee hearing, which is gonna provide scrutiny on the way disaster relief dollars have been used.

I think a debate, certainly from the Governor's Office, that there are probably issues there with the process, but the dollars should be allocated in order to address the problems, and the fact that you have 1,300 families that still haven't moved back into their homes.

But you know, that aside, I mean, I think the real setup coming into next week's session is not only are we looking at Helene relief funding, but we're also looking at dollars being allocated for the private school vouchers, the Opportunity Scholarships.

And I think we've already seen Governor Cooper, and I think you will not surprisingly see Senate House Democrats talk about the fact that the almost half a billion dollars that is being used to be sent to unaccountable private school vouchers for high-wealth families in Wake and Mecklenburg County really should be dollars that could be allocated to Helene families in West North Carolina.

- And we'll get to that in a couple of minutes.

But back to the hurricane recovery, would it be okay for the incoming governor, Josh Stein, to take office and say, "You know, the Cooper Administration, maybe its processes didn't work as well, and I can fix that"?

That was an issue in the presidential race, asking Vice President Harris about what we should do differently from Biden.

How does that really work in Raleigh?

Or does Governor Elect Stein play ball, and nothing was wrong?

We'll just move forward.

- Look, I think anytime you've got a new administration, there's an opportunity to do a look back and see what's working and what's not working.

And I would say that the Helene recovery and the way we do that disaster relief has to be probably one of the top two issues that the Stein administration needs to take a close look at.

I also think that we probably have to take a real look at the way we even do disaster relief the way we're building roads, for example.

I mean, I had a western North Carolina Center tell me that some of these roads may take five to seven years, which just is probably not acceptable in trying to bring back these economies in small towns.

So, I think we're gonna have to be creative, and I think we're gonna have to be bipartisan in trying to solve these problems.

- Billy, do you see bipartisanship coming to the forefront as roads get rebuilt?

Everyone likes roads.

Everyone likes a well-built, non-leaking school, and they like the grass mowed.

- Absolutely, and I think that you should always see bipartisanship after something like Helene or, I know you referenced Hurricane Matthew earlier, the damage it did out in Eastern North Carolina.

This, you hope to see the parties come together on this.

And I think you generally do in these cases.

I think Senator Sawyer is absolutely right that there was some great reporting that brought to light a lot of the issues helping out the people after Matthew.

I think clearly this is something that the state is gonna need to get right, because we're not gonna stop having hurricanes, you know, theoretically Hurricane Helene was a once in a generation type situation for Western North Carolina, but, you know, we're seeing a lot of these storms come through and cause this kind of damage.

And I know the folks out in Eastern North Carolina have seen it numerous times.

This is gonna happen again, so we gotta get this process right.

- Can government get it right, Brooke?

I mean, you're coming from the small government free market approach to anything with involving government operations.

Because money didn't come in from the previous hurricane or hasn't been spent and allocated, does that represent failure or is it bureaucracy and the process is slow, we just happen to get hit by a major hurricane before that money could be spent?

- I think there's a few factors at play here.

It's not just one single issue.

I mean, beyond a doubt, we do need to get the infrastructure component of this conversation right.

We need to make sure these roads are built efficiently.

That does mean that there needs to be an honest assessment of what is inhibiting these from getting built quickly in the first place and safely at the same time?

What are some of the regulatory barriers?

And I do think though that building that, rebuilding that infrastructure is a core component of government and the role that government should play, this is essential.

But I also think there does need to be some accountability when it comes to how the office of resiliency and recovery has been managed up until this point and where those funds have gone.

Why are there still hurricane Matthew and Florence victims that have not yet been re-homed or put back in their previous homes?

So there's a lot that needs to be done, but we owe it to the western part of the state too to get this right.

- Senator Sawyer, how as a legislative leader do you look back and do all this deep dive, which is gonna make some great headlines and we'll talk about whatever you find or whatever you hear, but at the end of the day, politicians holding hearings in Raleigh does not get checks to people, does not get their homes rebuilt.

How do you keep your caucus from becoming distracted because you are the super majority?

- Yeah, so I've been very grateful to serve on the National Coalition of Insurance Legislators.

And so I've been able to see from a federal state's perspective at a federal look over about what states like Louisiana and Florida and those folks who are prone, and actually California, who are prone to natural disasters.

And there is a private/public partnership here and there's an opportunity that those states have instituted that we can move forward.

So again, like you said, government should, and this is one of the tenets of what we should be doing, but we also need to leverage that private market because they are good at building homes, they are good about getting their roads back.

So how can we look at different ways to solve this very, very real problem?

- Can you bring the Matthew victims into the Helene victims and make all this work, or... - Well, that is something we actually are talking about right now at the General Assembly.

But you know, the NCO or the Office of Recovery Resiliency has come back with another financial ask of us.

I mean 35 to $50 million is what I'm hearing right now.

So as we move forward, we're gonna consider like, are we gonna continue to send good tax dollars after a bad product?

- All right, Republican legislators could, and they can, override Governor Roy Cooper's veto of legislation.

A big issue next week will be expanding funding for private school vouchers.

Those are also known as opportunity scholarships depending on how you feel about this whole issue of private school funding with public dollars.

The governor is clearly supported by public school advocacy groups.

He's never wavered in supporting funding for what you would consider North Carolina's traditional public school system.

He vetoed a bill to immediately fund every private school voucher application on the current waiting list at a price tag of about, well, $463 million, let's just call it a half billion Senator Chaudhuri and you are chomping at the bit to discuss school vouchers.

Why tie this back to Helene recovery?

This was an issue that predates any hurricane.

- Yeah, no, look, I think it's a good question and I totally agree with Senator Sawyer on the principle of not putting good dollars after bad products, in that principle, I think we're seeing that with these private school vouchers.

I mean, I think the contrast will be quite stark in this idea that we're taking a half billion dollars and sending them to unaccountable private schools for five private school vouchers to frankly, Wake and Mecklenburg County, families that I represent, a quarter of which make more than a quarter of a million dollars a year versus those dollars that could go to help Western North Carolina families, including, which was a point of disagreement in our last session about the fact that we're not providing small business recovery grants.

I think there was $350 million that Governor Cooper had asked for.

I think those grants could be really important in trying to make sure that those small businesses still stick around and are able to pay their employees.

I mean, we hear that loans are not really a solution, but grants have been more effective.

- Jay, I'm gonna jump in real quick because you know, I appreciate, well, you and I agree on a lot, right?

Let's just put it that way, but this is gonna be, there's issues that we'll probably never come to, but when I hear that argument, it's kind of like, you know, in my personal life, I just replaced my gas guzzling Sedan with a brand new Tesla.

That does not mean that my kids are not gonna get Christmas this year.

Right, there's enough for both.

We continue to increase money for public education.

The Opportunity Scholarship Fund is coming out of a separate pocket, and it really represents less than 2% or 1.3% of the money that we spend in public ed.

So it's just like a misnomer that you can't do both and they are accountable.

They're accountable to me.

I had my kid, one of mine went to public school and one went to private school and if the school wasn't giving my child what she needed at my private school, then I can move her.

And they are accountable and they're accountable to the family.

- Can I respond?

- We're just watching and enjoying this, go for it.

- Look, I guess Elon Musk could be delighted about the fact that you've bought a Tesla.

But I mean, look, I think a couple of things.

I mean, I think going into the budget, and I've said this on the Senate floor, I mean, I think the rainy day fund that has been established, really the Republican General Assembly gets credit for, but we are drawing down on those dollars fast.

And if you look at the corporate tax cuts that we're gonna put in place and the personal income tax cuts, we have more than $8 billion budget deficit projected by the year 2030.

And unfortunately, like I understand your argument, but it is a zero sum game in the fact that we have a limited amount of dollars that we have to spend.

And my argument is that I don't think it's a both end.

I think it's an either or.

And I think that the budget pressures that we're gonna see are gonna force us to make some really hard choices.

And I'd rather make those choices now than later.

- And if I may add as well, I think we can't separate this conversation about private school vouchers from the context of where public schools have been for years, there aren't many metrics out there that are gonna be kind to public school funding in North Carolina.

For years, public schools have been saying that they're underfunded, that we haven't kept up with inflation, we haven't kept up with growth.

Our teachers are as poorly paid as any in the nation.

So I think it'll be news to people to find out that this is not an either or type situation because for public schools, a lot of these public schools have been telling us for years that they're going through a lot of pain and simply increasing the amount of money for public schools.

Okay, but when you adjust it for inflation, when you adjust it for growth, you know, it's not a kind picture for the way that the legislature has funded public education.

So when you're talking about hundreds of millions for private school vouchers, you've gotta talk about that too for public education.

- I would like to hear the conversation about how we fund public education, and I think that's something we, as both republicans and Democrats realize, there's 100 years of bureaucracy and rules and funding silos, right?

I think if we're gonna have a conversation about what it costs to truly educate a child, we need to break down those funding silos and let's look at how we can revolutionize the way we fund public schools.

Because when I hear your speech and what I hear from you, I agree that we do need to invest in public ed, but for me as an appropriator, I don't know that the money that we're spending in public education is actually reaching the children.

And so until we can decide how we can revolutionize how we fund public ed, I think we're still gonna have these same battles.

And I hope we can do it in a bipartisan way moving forward.

- I think it's important also to talk about some of the real numbers here, and the average cost per pupil at a traditional public school is gonna be between $11,000 and $13,000.

The opportunity scholarship for the very highest income folks, if they are to even receive it at all, is going to be around $3,300.

And so when you're thinking about a private school student receiving an OSP that is $3,300 state dollars, versus maybe $13,000 going toward paying for that same student to attend a traditional public school, so if we're talking a zero sum numbers game, that alone, I think, is something that's worthy of consideration.

And talking about accountability, let's look at the general statutes here on this.

Those private schools are going to be required to administer nationally standardized tests, they have to furnish the graduation rates of those students that receive the opportunity scholarship, and even there's other accountability metrics.

But also the parents get to have that accountability conversation too, because if they don't like the product, then they go somewhere else, they have that choice.

If they're locked into a traditional public school, they don't even get that option.

- Senator Sawyer, what do you make of Mo Green coming into office?

He has an opportunity to set a tone.

And what can he do to make that case for public ed and higher funding, other than "it's not enough funding," because you can't do a budget where the bottom line is not enough funding.

What's the dollar?

- Well, I actually had an opportunity to serve under a committee where Mo Green kind of was the leader right before when I started out as a freshman legislator.

So I have a lot of professional respect for him and I look forward to him working with the DPI and General Assembly to see what we can get done.

I think he has a great understanding and grasp of just what I was talking about, is the structure of public ed and how we fund it and looking forward.

I'm excited to work with him, I think he's gonna set the right tone, and hopefully we just won't have all this inter partisan bickering.

I think he's just that person that can bridge that gap and I look forward to what he's doing.

- Republicans like him?

- Well, I'm a Republican and I seem to like him.

Now, y'know, of course, it's a team game, so, of course, I would want to see, y'know, one of my teammates be at the head, like Catherine Truitt, and I believe she did a fantastic job, y'know, in that position.

But, y'know, elections have consequences and who we choose to put on a statewide ballot has consequences, and so we, as Republican Party, is really suffering from those consequences.

But here we are, election's done.

I'm looking forward to working with all of those who are elected statewide so that we can be good stewards of the State of North Carolina.

And, y'know, I know that sounds kumbaya, but, y'know, now it's time to govern.

Put down your swords and now it's time to govern, 'cause that's what people have put us up here to do.

- Senator Chaudhuri, can opportunity scholarships and higher traditional public school funding both be very popular with the electorate?

As a Democrat, you're gonna go pro-public, she's gonna go pro-choice, we get that from the Raleigh inside baseball seat, but people seem to support both, it does seem.

- I mean, I think in principle the answer is yes, but what I would say is the evolution of private school vouchers unfortunately have moved away from its original idea, which was this idea that you would provide vouchers to low income students so they had the same opportunity as middle to higher income students.

And we just don't see that now that the income bracket has been removed.

I mean, there's no income cap.

And we also know that from some of the studies that the tuition dollars that are gonna be used as essentially a way to re-shift the cost back to those families and there's a real question about whether those families actually saved those dollars or not.

- Billy, Carter and Pine covers a lot of education policy and, y'know, it's part of its portfolio.

What don't Republicans get about public education and how to best fund it and at what level to fund it?

- Well, I think, y'know, a lot of what we've seen, I can't tell you exactly what they don't get, but I can tell you- - [Kelley] That may be a bad choice on my part.

- Based on their actions.

- But I know how you feel.

- What I have seen since the Republicans took over the Legislature back in 2010, 2011, I'm gonna show my age right there, y'know, what I have seen is a continued move away from public education and into the school choice options, whether that's charter schools, whether that is private school vouchers.

And I think people view charter schools and private school vouchers very differently.

I think we sometimes throw them in the same bucket, but they're not the same thing.

So with private school vouchers, I wouldn't assume all of the public support for private school vouchers, 'cause generally when they come up to a public vote in other states, they get voted down.

But, y'know, with charter schools, generally you see parents who are interested in having choice, but you also have to factor that in with the fact that those parents aren't happy to see public schools struggling to do basic things like run a bus.

Which is, I know as a parent of public school children, I know there are days when they can't even get a bus out there to kids.

And these things, we've been seeing these breakdowns for some time in the public school system.

I think folks on the right will tend to say, "Oh, that's 'cause they're mismanaging the money" instead of looking at all the things that public schools have to take care of and the fact that they have to take care of every single kid.

They can't pick and choose who they take.

And some of those kids are more expensive to teach than others.

And I think that just in general, what I see is a belief on the right that the private sector can fix this, but it's really come at the expense.

- Yeah.

- Of a sector that is where most kids are going.

- So Brooke, I'll continue my poor usage of terms and say on the school choice side, what don't Democrats, what, why don't they get it about vouchers?

- Well, I think with due respect to Senator Todry, he said it, it's an either or sort of framework in their minds about this rather than, you know, and Billy too where it's just that, you know, we believe that the private sector can fix it.

I think the private sector can enhance the education discussion that we're having and be an alternative or an option for certain families.

But we want to see traditional public schools flourish as well because we all really do care that North Carolina's children are well prepared for the future.

And so I do think it's become such a political hot button issue and hopefully we can find some of that common ground because I really don't think it's either or.

I think it is just a matter of what is the best option for this child - Very quickly, Senator?

The odds of overriding the veto and implementing school vouchers.

- Well, it depends on if the House can get their members here.

[everyone laughs] - They have to get here.

- Yeah.

I mean.

I'll be honest with you, I know the House is going through a lot of things right now, especially some inner caucus dynamics and just literally getting the Republican majority here, one day to work in the House is really a tough job for them right now.

We'll find out.

- No House Republican to defend themselves here.

- Yeah, I know, of course we're the Senate and we can, you know, throw off a little bit.

- You're setting me up.

Legislative Republicans also have the numbers to override legislation that would force county sheriffs to cooperate with federal immigration officials.

Most county sheriffs do acknowledge these detainer requests if an arrested person is believed to be in the country illegally.

In a few counties Democrats have, or sheriff, Democratic sheriffs have publicly said they're not gonna cooperate with immigration and customs enforcement requests because they ran on it as a platform.

Billy, let's go.

- This has been a conversation, again that is not brand new.

There's- - Years old.

- We've seen law enforcement going back and forth on this in the years, and I know that's a state conversation, but it's happening in a very big national context.

With President-elect Trump, I think one of the first things that people expect to see outta Trump based on his campaign was massive deportations, was the way it was put during the campaign.

So how does that show up once he's in office in January?

And how do local law enforcement work with federal customs officials?

I that's, like I said, this has been going on for years.

You've got sheriffs in one county who say, we're trying to speed up the process of deportations.

- Right.

- And others who are saying it's not a top priority for them.

I, this will be very interesting to see how it breaks down.

- Brooke, your thoughts on this issue?

Why not let local voters elect local sheriffs to do what they promised they'd do if they're elected?

- Well, I mean, that's at the heart of federalism, but also federalism, there is the federal component too, where there are national laws that do need to be upheld.

But to Billy's point about this, having been a part of the conversation for many, many years now, this is something that was a key issue for a lot of voters.

It brought them out to vote.

In many cases, the ones that seemed to feel the strongest about it were those Republican voters that decided to vote for Trump when it comes to this mass deportation claim that's going to happen.

You know, time will tell, we'll see what happens.

But, it, just for some numbers on this, out of North Carolina's 100 counties, it was only about 10 sheriffs that said that they were not going to comply with this.

But yeah, I, the voters should have a voice in this, but also the sheriffs are obligated and have sworn on oath to uphold the law.

- Senator Sawyer, I say 10% of the sheriffs say they're gonna do their thing 'cause it's their county and you stay outta the bus.

However, here's the legislature.

Why not leave those 10 counties alone?

- Well, is it really up to a sheriff or a law enforcement officer to pick and choose which laws he should enforce?

Maybe that's the bigger question here.

It doesn't necessarily have to do with immigration.

This has to go across the board.

And having that type of uniform law enforcement across the state is actually what we need just for general government purposes.

But, I think this is all gonna be a lot for naught.

I mean, you see with President-elect's pick with Tom Holman.

I mean, wow, the rhetoric coming out of there, it sounds like if you don't cooperate, then you will be in trouble.

So, like Brooke said, just a wait and see approach to this.

But I really think this is just something that was very important a couple months ago before the election, but now it's just gonna be all for naught 'cause the feds are gonna take care of it.

- Senator Chaudhuri, federal agents could be going into local towns.

What happens then with local law enforcement?

How does this play out?

- Well, I mean, I don't think we know.

I mean, I think as we've heard, I mean, I think there are gonna be tensions in two spaces.

I mean one between the state and local and then the other between federal and states.

And I think as Billy talked about, I think what will be really interesting is you have some democratic governors that have all have already said that they are not gonna have national guards participate in any kind of deportation efforts.

And so, I think you're gonna probably see the tension first at the national level with what happens with the Trump administration.

- Well, I got a minute left.

I'll give the last words to our senators.

What do you make of next week?

Will you be busy?

How are we looking towards the end of the year?

And then we'll have an inauguration and then we'll have a convening of the 2025 session.

Handicap this for us.

- It'll be busy.

It'll be busy.

And if anyone tells you they know exactly what's gonna happen next week, I would say that they're not telling you the exact truth.

- And Senator Chaudhuri, how does your caucus keep the energy up?

You're gonna at least be able to knock down, at least hold a veto effective in January.

Is that exciting for you or do you think the challenge is even greater to hold?

You can't hold a house caucus together, but you can watch them.

- We can try.

We can try.

Look, I think the election showed us that North Carolina is a purple state, and I think that bipartisanship is a good thing.

And when we've had the opportunity for Democrats to uphold the governor's veto, we've actually had really good bipartisan legislation.

And so I remain optimistic.

I hope we don't have a lot of surprises at the end of the year, which we... [laughs] - I'm trying to get folks to tune in next week.

So just wait.

- We need viewers.

- We don't need Cooper 2.0 from 2016.

That was... - Thank you very much everyone sharing your insights.

It's a big week coming up and there's been some big legislation that's coming in.

Thank you for watching folks.

Email me statelines@pbsnc.org.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Thank you so much for watching.

I'll see you next time.

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