NC Abortion Bill, Senate Budget Talks and AI Concerns

- North Carolina abortions after 12 weeks banned, after GOP lawmakers override Governor Cooper's veto.

While the state Senate announces a $30 billion budget proposal as the national debt ceiling continues to be problematic.

And AI concerns resurface as warnings of dangers ahead increase.

Coming right up on "Black Issues Forum."

- [Narrator] "Black Issues Forum" is a production of PBS North Carolina with support from the Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation.

Quality public television has made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBSNC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum," I'm Kenia Thompson.

Legislation banning most abortions after 12 weeks of pregnancy will become law in North Carolina after the General Assembly successfully overrode Cooper's veto earlier this week.

Since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022, state abortion restrictions have become more commonplace.

To talk about what's happening here in North Carolina and how it could impact you, we welcome to the show North Carolina Senator, Natalie Murdock.

"Roll Call" columnist and host of the its "Equal Time Podcast", Mary C. Curtis.

And executive director of The Green Majority and Professor at North Carolina State University, La'Meshia Whittington.

Welcome to the show ladies.

- Thank you for having us.

- Of course.

- Thank you.

- Senator, I wanna start with you, break it down for us.

You know, we had hope that with the governor's veto we could have been in the clear of such a drastic decision, but now this override, is this final?

And will this decision stick?

And most importantly, what does it mean?

- Yes, unfortunately it is.

The veto was overwritten, even though we had thousands of North Carolinians that came to Raleigh this weekend.

I was there to join them, we had a veto rally.

But on Monday we did receive news that there would be a veto override vote on Tuesday, which did not give enough time for folks to come and really continue to engage with legislators.

So that vote did take place on Tuesday, and folks called their legislators.

We implored one, two Republicans to join us, and say we want to make sure that women continue to have full freedom and bodily autonomy.

And unfortunately we were unable to do that, so beginning July 1st, this law, unfortunately, will go into effect, and it is an extreme abortion ban.

There's still a lot of uncertainty, it was opposed by the OBGYN Association, it was opposed by the Medical Society.

And we are another southern state that is saying we don't trust women, we want this state to come in and encourage force verse, and not provide women with the freedom to determine their own lives and destinies.

And it is very, very sad day for our state, we'll have to see what the courts do.

But to be clear, it is very, very restrictive, including some fines, it creates a lot of uncertainties for doctors.

And we need to just trust physicians to do what it is that they were trained to do.

- And is there a possibility for it to change in the future?

Or is this really it?

- To fully, fully change, we will have to vote in 2024.

That is what change will take, we will have to pick up additional seats from elected officials that are supportive of women having full freedom over their bodies, and not anti-abortion politicians.

- Mary, we know that the state is majority Republican, and it seems as though they wanted to, not only override this decision, but the democratic decision as well.

What are your thoughts on that?

- It's very interesting, I wrote a column and "Roll Call."

It says, is North Carolina becoming Florida?

Because we saw there the six-week ban signed by Governor Ron DeSantis.

And here we see a battle of messaging where Republicans are trying to say, this is a compromise at 12 weeks, it's a reasonable bill and it's mainstream.

And Democrats are saying, "Wait, there's a lot in this bill.

It's just not a 12-week ban.

There are limits on clinics that will force it as said by Planned Parenthood and some of the clinics to close.

It's a 10-week ban on medical abortions, it is also an increasing the waiting periods because we saw many folks from other states in the south coming to North Carolina, so this will impact them.

And yes, as was said, this is going to be a big issue because North Carolina itself is about split, it's kind of a 50-50 state.

And we see Democrats, Republicans, and unaffiliated voters kind of split in thirds.

And all polls say that actually a majority of North Carolinians are in favor of, they were really supporting the 20-week ban bill, not this bill, so we'll see that.

We saw Governor Roy Cooper going out trying to implore some of the Republicans who had pledged to protect, excuse me, protect abortion rights not to vote to override his veto, and that did not work.

And this will be a huge issue issue as we see across the country in 2024 because voters in North Carolina will have a choice on which way they want the state to go.

But right now it is seeming that they are these bills that are becoming more restrictive, and it's following the South pretty much to do this, and it will be up to the votes.

- Well, this conversation seems to continue.

LA, it seems as though as women we have a little say over what happens to our bodies.

Does this decision specifically allow for cases of rape, or incest, or medical emergency in a pregnancy?

- That's a great question.

And you know, and speaking, you know, very briefly on our rights, I know many of us as advocates for years, you know, we're ringing the alarm, sounding the alarm that the decision to gut Roe v, Wade by the Supreme Court last year similar to the racial gerrymanders, and discriminatory gerrymanders that happened years ago through the Supreme Court, this was going to be a snowball effect across the US South, across the nation.

That once you gut federal provisions, right?

Laws and rules, it opens up the gateway for everyone to be impacted.

So this is a succession a long line of what it means to actually see the legal process be organized against the people.

And so to that point, you know, we're seeing it bans throughout, you know, they're already effective in 14 states.

So when we get down to the granularity to your question of, okay, what does that mean for?

Is there exceptions for rape, or incests, or medical emergency?

State law as was already mentioned that it's about to go into effect bans nearly all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy without exceptions for rape or incests, there's no exceptions.

The exception that is existing is for life-limiting fetal anomalies, is what they call that, life-limiting.

Fetal anomalies, we'd have to get a little bit more clarity of what that actually means.

And in trusting the physicians, what does that mean?

It can't be, and it shouldn't be prescribed by again, you know, physicians.

But that's a term.

And that limiting exception is for the first 24 weeks.

And there's an existing exception that when the life of the woman is in danger that will remain from the previous laws.

But again, no exceptions for rape and incest.

- And also when it comes to life of the mother defined by who, we've seen in other states where we have these restrictions where women go into the hospital, they're approved for an abortion, then the attorney comes in and says, no, we don't wanna be liable.

Those women have been denied.

They have gone in their cars and they have had to be on their death's door before they were readmitted to have an abortion.

So, life altering for who?

And we know women of color will be disproportionately impacted since they already have issues being taken seriously in the medical system.

And just wanna add Maya Angelou's quote of, "People will not remember everything you said or what you did, but they'll remember how you made them feel."

So, people need to remember how they feel in this moment and get out and vote in 2024.

- Mary, these restrictions on access to abortions can potentially exacerbate existing health disparities.

Like, you know, Senator was just talking about, when we talk about inequalities, we are limiting reproductive choices and autonomy.

What are some of the solutions in place for these people?

Or have they been forgotten?

- Well, it's kind of interesting because studies have shown that even African-American women of high education and income just as well as any other African-American woman, we have two to three times sometimes the complications in pregnancy and childbirth and that is a problem.

So we're talking about reproductive health in general.

So we do see that there are efforts among health professionals, particularly female health professionals and health professionals of color to get information to African-American mothers and also women to get healthcare to get their preventive screenings.

And also, you know, to use things like midwives and doulas and issues like this.

People who can advocate for you in the healthcare system and often women of color really haven't taken advantage of these and don't know of some of these alternative kind of practitioners that are available to us.

But it will become more important because with healthcare professionals not making some of these decisions, but lawyers looking at to see to lessen the liability because of these laws and the penalties that come with these laws, it is going to become more and more harrowing often for women of color, particularly in the healthcare system.

- Yeah, La, I can only imagine how much delayed or denied care will become more and more of a conversation.

Any understanding on how insurance companies and medical providers might give help or provide help navigating and understanding how to get what patients need medically.

- Sure, sure.

You know, as leader Curtis just mentioned many of our communities are already in medical apartheids is what we call, right?

And that means that many of our communities already don't have access to health insurance.

I really wanna ground that first and foremost that our primary physicians are oftentimes the emergency rooms and then now we have mass hospital closures especially in rural areas.

So as I speak about insurance, I wanna be very clear that, you know, there's an erasure and a silencing of many of our workforce or underbelly of our, you know, black mothers and expected parents that actually are not covered at all.

And so when talking about insurance, insurance is always varied in coverage even after, you know, last year, the June 4th ruling, as I mentioned about Roe Wade, that was already, you know, up in the air because it depended, it was contingent on each state.

Now the issue is even more complex because states are setting their varying rules based on their ban.

So whether it's limited abortions or a complete and total ban that is shifting insurance coverage for state coverage.

So to be clear, the question of whether an insurance plan covers abortion is not the same as whether the abortion is allowed in a state.

So you can have coverage that says, okay, this is covered, but it gets complicated if the state if there are no clinics to provide it in your state, your insurance cover can cover it.

But if there's no clinics, you can't actually get it covered.

And so the other thing is the question is, you wanna ask yourself, you know, what type of insurance do you have?

And that the best plan is to talk to your administrators because you wanna know is it a self-insured or is it self-funded?

Those are your questions, self-insured or you know, fully-insured or self-funded.

And the reason that's important is because any insurance that receives state funding or is under state law means that they are under the jurisdiction of the state law.

So if they're receiving money or coverage from the state, they can't, guess what, they can't offer you funding to support abortion, right?

It is impossible legally.

However, if it's an insurance plan that is above state law because they're not under the jurisdiction of the state because they don't take their money, then there's more coverage, flexibility.

And you really have to ask the question, talk to your administrator and figure out are you fully-insured or are you self-funded?

- Yeah.

Good information there.

Thank you.

More news state side, North Carolina senators pass a 30 billion dollar budget proposal calling for tax cuts and a new 1.4 billion dollar economic development program tied to the state's university system.

This coming in at almost the same time that Biden and top US Congressional Republican Kevin McCarthy pushes to reach a deal soon to raise the federal government's 31.4 trillion dollar debt ceiling and avoid an economically catastrophic default.

Senator coming back to you, there's another need here to break down all of what is happening.

You know, I think there's some confusion as to what this debt ceiling means.

- Yes.

I feel for folks trying to keep up at home as legislators this week, we had to battle the override of the abortion ban in addition to our state budget, the Senate, the budget started in the house this year.

You alternate.

So, last session it started in the Senate, then the House took it up.

This year it started, and the House, the Senate took it up.

And I honestly have to say, the colleagues in the house did a better job.

In the Senate, you see deeper tax cuts that are very harmful to the future of our state as a previous state employee or we still are state employees in general as legislators and they really, really need a bump in pay.

We are seeing unprecedented vacancies in so many of our state departments.

And if we don't fix this now, I don't know what we'll have left in 10 years, if we don't really take care of our state employees, we need to do better with those cost of living increases.

But when we talk about these deep cuts, we already knew that corporate taxes the majority wants to zero them out over time.

I represent the Research Triangle Park that is nothing that the businesses are actually asking for.

We have a low tax rate of 2.5 that is the lowest in all of the Southeast.

That's the part of why businesses are continuing to come here.

So we filed an amendment to keep that corporate tax rate right where it is at 2.5.

In addition to that, they want to decrease personal income tax.

Of course, no one enjoys paying taxes, but guess what?

When you are a leader, you have to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars.

You can't steward them if you don't receive them.

- [Host] Yeah.

- So, if we decrease those the way that Republicans want to, it will cost us in two years, $2.5 million.

- [Host] Wow.

- So, billion dollars.

So when that loss of revenue, will have to be made up somewhere.

Will it come from our roads?

Likely our schools.

Also unprecedented amount of funding for opportunity scholarships, which takes public dollars to make it easier, in this instance, for rich families to send their children to private school with public dollars.

So a lot wrong with this budget, but it's not final.

So we continue to move forward as it goes to conference to say we have to meet in the middle, and we cannot continue to starve our state of the resources that it needs.

- Yeah.

LA, when we talk about raising this debt ceiling, right?

We think, okay, well let's give it some more room to grow, but are we really solving the problem here?

And why does it matter?

What's the impact of putting on this bandaid?

- Yeah, so it's very important to really ground, what is the debt ceiling, and so to be able to assess like, what is the problem, what are the solutions?

So historically we, federally, we have the US Treasury, and from that Treasury of America, congress pays its debts.

And so what does the federal government have in debts?

Well they pay social security, Medicare, military services, wages to federal employees, and tax refunds.

So those are examples of what the federal government is required as being the federal government supporting states.

That's its requirement, that's its job.

So every year, as congress is making the decision that we pass that debt ceiling, the whole purpose is to move that threshold so they can afford their debts.

It's not what's coming up, that's different than the budget.

That's what we're projecting that we need money for.

But the debt ceiling is about our debt, what we have to pay.

Now, the interesting thing about the debt ceiling, what we have to be very careful about, is we have to be very fiscally responsible.

That's another labor point that is on our congressional members is, how are we being fiscally responsible, so that we're not creating more and more debt?

We have been in a historic pandemic.

What does that look like with economic downturn?

How do we, you know, the Infrastructure Jobs Act, all these bills that have been moving money to states to revitalize our economy is because we're trying to get ahead of being in further debt in future years.

The other part of it is, it's very interesting, is the US Treasury also sells bonds to foreign investors.

So not only are we trying to catch up with debts internally, and we're using money from income taxes, like what we do in labor, when we pay to the IRS, it goes to the US Treasury.

But because of different, again, economic downturn, the mass expenses that America does with consumerism, all these contributing factors, we've now increased in foreign investors.

In 1970, we had 5% of foreign countries and foreign private investors that owned bonds, or stock in America.

Now we have 30%, it's increased.

So now we're having to also be careful as we lift that debt ceiling, is just how much are we going into future debt that we will need foreign investors that will be investing in our country?

And the purpose was to be able to create an economic cycle.

The investors receive dividends and interests and they get paid, and then they pay back into the American government.

However, if that's not going to continue to happen we are offshoring and giving more of our American ownership to foreign interests and foreign owners in other countries, China, Japan, UK, Brazil, Russia, they all actually are investors in the US Treasury and they have bonds to America.

So it's very important to understand how, globally, we have an impact, and what the debt ceiling means outside of just domestic, and how that holds impact on our labor here and our future debt and possibilities as, again, capitalism and in all these conversations when we talk about socioeconomic mobility for our communities.

This is very important to understand what's at stake.

- Yeah, thank you for that education.

Mary, when we mentioned tax cuts, what I hear is an unequal distribution of wealth.

Tax cuts often benefit high income earners and corporations more than low and middle income earners.

Am I wrong on this, and what are your thoughts?

- No, you're very right.

Sometimes we've seen the shocking numbers that sometimes huge corporations zero out because of all the tax breaks they can get, and also the tax loopholes.

And you have folks, I remember Warren Buffet used to say, the billionaire, "my secretary pays more taxes than I do."

And when you see this state budget there's that conflict between that, wanting more and more tax cuts, saying there will be business development, but then you have a state like North Carolina that's booming, cost of living is rising, and state workers, sometimes it's difficult really even to get rent, food, all of these things.

And who wants to go into state work when we need it and you have all of these vacancies?

So yes, there is that discrepancy there.

- Hmm, well, when we talk about the rumblings that we've heard about the weight of the US dollar, is there truth in the dollar losing value?

Senator, I wanted to ask you this question.

And does this decision have anything to do with that?

- We have to pay our bills as a nation.

I mean, we cannot default.

And I just do wanna remind folks, particularly under the Trump administration, how many times we increased that debt limit, and it's really ceremonial, and it's become something that's been politicized, but it could be harmful to our standing as far as the global financial picture if we do default.

So we just have to figure it out.

Congress is just gonna have to get together and figure out a way forward, because we cannot afford to do this since we're finally increasing jobs, unemployment is down, our job numbers look great, the economy is bouncing back, and we just don't need this to be a setback for us at this time.

- Well, more news making national headlines.

ChatGPT chief says, "AI should be regulated by a US or global agency."

And just earlier this month, the godfather of AI, Geoffrey Hinton, stepped down from Google while leaving a warning for all on the potential dangers of AI.

Mary, back to you.

It was just this past March when Elon Musk and some others in this space called for a pause on AI, and we hear the concerns, but what are some of the dangers that we should really be concerned about?

- I know when people think of AI they think of the Terminator and Skynet taking over, and while we're not at that point, we see that a majority of Americans, according to a poll this week, feel that there is some danger to humanity from AI.

And we see people really anxious about the jobs that they can do, and what will that affect, how will that affect unemployment?

The writers who are on strike are saying, will they start hiring people to write for us, to write scripts, and what will happen when you lose that human element?

And then also it can be manipulated so much, you see it happening in education.

Where teachers are trying to figure out, students are turning in papers that were written by AI and ChatGPT and then also the issue of in politics.

How you can manipulate deep fakes and all of these other issues where it's really difficult to tell what's human, what's AI.

And so it's another one of these cases where it seems the technology is really running ahead of any understanding or also regulation and what this, what should be done about it.

And it's interesting because when you see in Congress the legislators questioning the folks who are the head of the social media, AI and so forth, even they have trouble with the terminology.

So they're trying to make regulations on things they truly don't understand.

And that is always going to be a problem.

We always seem to rush ahead with any kind of technology that this will always be a boon to humanity, but we see in the hands of human beings how it also can be a negative - Indeed.

Senator, how involved is North Carolina in the AI game, and what should we know about our state's evolution in technology?

- Yes, as one of my panelists here, professor Whittington knows, we have cutting edge AI studies at NC State in addition to a number of institutions across North Carolina.

So we really are on the cutting edge as far as examining it, seeing what it can do.

But as a legislator, my concern really is at the state level, how will it impact jobs?

How will it impact our community, our economy?

And so we really need to, at the state level, really be intentional about studying AI.

That is something that I have advocated for.

We need to see how will it impact the Amazons, these distribution centers that we have across the state.

How will it make it very difficult for folks to give jobs?

With the caveat, some of AI is filling in gaps of jobs that are unfilled.

So I do think that there is the happy meeting of where it is helpful for employers that just are struggling to, you know, figure out how to meet all their goals with just not having quite enough employees but also wanna add AI is still created by humans so also concerned about the input, right?

So there is bias baked into AI.

So I think that that's something that we also have to be mindful of, but there's so much that it can do.

Very positive, but definitely agree with that pause that would have to happen at the federal level of how will we provide that oversight.

But at the state level, we really need to be diligent and vigilant as far as really looking at how it's gonna have that state level impact.

Because you have to plan for these things 10, 20 years out.

You can't catch up once you're already behind.

So we have to take this very seriously as a state.

- Indeed.

LA, about two minutes left here in the show.

We've talked about abortion, we've talked tax cuts, now AI, what impact, if any, does AI have on all of these decisions that are being made in our world today?

- Sure.

So I believe, you know, my fellow panelists have really landed the plane.

And when we talk about, I'll add just to the conversation, when we talk about artists and creative liberties, we've already seen AI take on a form where it is manipulating folks' images and placing people where they actually haven't been or using their voices and manipulation.

So even when we're talking about copyright infringements, taking on an intelligent life form that is literally replicating and reproducing our likeness in our images how are we dealing with that?

When we already know crime rates and the way our communities are targeted with sometimes falsified situations.

And so when that increases there to be weaponized against our communities, we also to place a racial equity analysis and a lens on AI in a way that places a hyper lens on saying, okay, how can this be used in a way that will create further disparities for our people?

How can this be used in a way that will do digital crimes?

Whether, you know, digital is just as simple as I'm using my debit card, not physical cash.

Okay, where's the manipulation that can take place that can take my information with a click of a phone?

We oftentimes give consent to share our data.

When does it get to a point where our data is now being used in manipulation against us?

And so the last thing I'll say is there's a term that scientists are using that this is biological intelligence versus chemical intelligence.

We are the biological intelligence and this is versing in intelligence, a literal life form that in this technological sense that is going to outpace and outdo and out-create us because it can gather so much information and output where it does become its own entity, its own cloning in a way because it's disseminating information faster than we can create it.

And what does that mean in replacement but also technologies that can be manipulated by people with ill intentions.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

So much, so much, and we've packed so much into this show, La'Meshia Whittington, Mary C. Curtis, and Senator Natalie Murdock.

Thank you so much for your insight, for your thoughts today, and we always love having you on.

- We invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag black issues forum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

Thank you for watching.

I'm Kenya Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

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Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBSNC.