- [Kelly] Governor Josh Stein releases his budget recommendations, including a halt to future income tax reductions, and could North Carolina soon allow lawful gun owners to conceal carry without a permit?

This is state lines.

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[uplifting music] ♪ - Welcome to State Lines.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Joining me today is Skye David of New Frame Legal.

To her right, senator Paul Lowe returns from Forsyth County, and beside him, representative Allen Chesser of Nash County, Capital Bureau Chief of the News and Observer Dawn Vaughan is in seat four.

Hello everyone.

Busy week.

Lots of topics.

I don't think we'll get through them all, but we'll just start from the top and work our way down, which is I guess Josh Stein's budget.

We'll put that at the top.

He released his recommendations for the '25-'26 year this week.

Governors always release their budgets, even though budget drafting falls solely with the general assembly.

So, Governor Stein is proposing a halt to planned income tax rate reductions.

He wants to offer tax credits for working families to offset childcare and living expenses.

He's calling for starting teacher pay to exceed $51,000 by the 2026 school year, state employees and retirees would receive about a 2% raise, and that's just a few of the high level proposals in a big thick notebook about like that.

I'm sure you've read every page, Dawn, so we'll turn this over to you.

- It's good bedside reading.

- [Kelly] How are we thinking?

- I do have the print copy too.

The digital one.

The big things that Stein talked about, it was kind of a more moderate budget than his predecessor, Roy Cooper.

And there are some things that he has pitched for raises for state employees are only 2%, which didn't make the State Employees Association very happy.

And I even asked, you know, Republican speaker, Dustin Hall, if he thinks raises for state employees should be higher than 2%, and he does, whether or not that's where House Republican budget writers and Senate Republican budget writers decide those raises are gonna be, it was kind of not as like huge ask, the teacher pay, the starting teacher pay is something that seems to have bipartisan support.

I think they'll keep talking about that.

So, that's not, you know, too far off from what the legislature already wants.

But the tax cuts that Stein is proposing are not likely to get a lot of Republican support, because he also wants to freeze the other planned ones.

Now, everyone can talk about taxes, not stop the ones that are coming next year, but maybe think further down the road that there could be some sort of adjustments is what Speaker Hall said.

But yeah, it wasn't as, you know, he didn't ask for as much money or as much spending in different areas the way Cooper has, but he also asked for some things that are just not gonna happen.

- Well, you have to be a Democrat when you're a Democratic governor.

I don't think that should be held against him, even though he's handing this over to Republican budget writers, representative Chesser.

The vibe I will say in Raleigh seems to be pretty good if neutral between a very democratic governor and a very Republican House caucus.

Am I reading that incorrectly, or are you folks finding some common ground here these early weeks?

- No, I think you're reading it correctly.

I think that there is reasons to be optimistic with what we're seeing so far.

Whether you're looking at a lean recovery, or anything else that we've done so far.

There are some policy issues that we disagree on, but it appears that we're all trying to get in the same boat and row in the same direction.

And so, when I see something like this, I take it as an optimistic sign that we're gonna be able to get something done.

And there's things that we agree on.

I always tell people all the time, we often identify the same issues.

It's the solutions that we disagree on.

And so when I look at the governor's budget knowing that it's gotta come through a Republican controlled general assembly, it's probably not gonna be the governor's budget that comes out the other side.

Everybody understands that.

And so I tend to look for where he's sending signals.

And so I find a few interesting one is trying to freeze tax cuts for all while giving out select tax cuts is an interesting tactic to take.

The Republicans just choose to support lowering the burden, the tax burden on everyone rather than picking winners and losers.

And so I think we're gonna probably hold our ground on that one a little bit.

The other piece is in his proposal, he moves some funding from the Safer Schools Grants and moves it away.

And so I think that sends the wrong message there.

I think the one thing that we all agree on is making sure that our schools are properly secured and safe for our students.

And so we just, I think there are conversations that we still need to have, but reasons to be optimistic.

- The school resource officer's part seems to be, because Stein called for more of those and Hall said that he liked that.

So that might be something that ends up working well.

- Senator Lowe, they got a standing ovation during the State of the State to make schools more secure.

Do you see this as Democrats fighting Republicans on this, or House Republican budget writers, they're really dealing with the Senate side Republicans on this, right?

- I think that the House Republicans, I think when it comes to some of the things like that, are trying to find creative ways to work together.

I see Governor Stein trying to find creative ways to work together.

Although when it comes to taxes and tax freezes, that's gonna be a difficult one, I think, a challenge to make, to get done.

But I think with some of the other things I'm hearing, certainly on our side, some good things that people feel very good about working with Governor Stein.

And I think he's doing what he can to try to reach out and try to find common ground.

- I wanna ask you as a Democrat with some seniority over in the Senate, when you're facing those supermajorities or near supermajorities as a Democrat, I know constituents expect you to fight the budget.

However, being effective means what from your position?

Do you work quietly with Republican budget writers where you can to represent your constituents?

Or do you go through the governor, and that's the best way to reach budget writers in the House and Senate?

Always wondered about that.

- My approach has been to try to build relationships and try to look at the things, certainly with some of my colleagues that were in the same delegation to look where we can find consensus, look for those things that we can agree on and try to work from that vantage point for our citizens and our districts.

I think that's been my approach.

I think that the governors, all of them have a different way that they have to look at the state than a legislator.

And I think that I have to respect what they have to do, and we try to work with each other as much as we can.

- Skye, tie a ribbon on this particular topic before we move on.

It is budget season already and we're already at spring and things seem to be moving in North Carolina, but what are you seeing from the trenches?

- Yeah, I found his budget.

- They'll stop.

It's just a matter of time.

- I found his proposal to be really interesting, because to Don's point about the state employee raises, you could have given them 15% and then the state employees would've been happy.

But that would've been an unrealistic expectation to set for them.

And I think it was interesting that he kind of dialed back expectations and made a very realistic budget that the General Assembly could build upon.

- Is Helene starting to bite into what I call traditional operations of state governance at this time?

- I think it is.

I mean, it's impacting everything.

- I mean, $500 million going every other month, that's a lot of money.

So I haven't heard anyone talk about that, Dawn, in the budget bills.

There's a point when that becomes billions and this state doesn't have billions.

It can't print money.

- Yeah, so right now, what Senator Leader Berger and Speaker Hall are doing, are negotiating that spend number, the total spend number.

So we're not gonna see the Senate goes first with a budget this year.

Berger said that ideally it's the week before Easter, but they still have to agree on that total spend number.

And I think part of that always includes how much is gonna be in the rainy day fund.

And the rainy day fund is needed for things like Helene.

So, I think that's still to be determined.

- We'll be watching that.

Senator Law, you ready to talk about guns?

- [Senator Law] Ah, what a wonderful subject.

- I'll do my script here.

State Senate has passed a bill to allow legal gun owners, legal gun owners, the right to conceal carry without a concealed carry permit.

Legislation would allow citizens, 18 years and older, to conceal carry without taking the required safety course and paying that $80 fee that has to be paid.

The Bill does require citizens to have the legal right to possess a firearm as it stands right now, sparked debate in a Senate committee this week.

- We say it here all the time, "Support the blue."

I fundamentally support our police officers.

You are going to jeopardize their lives with the passage of this Bill.

And I really want you to think about that.

You're jeopardizing lives and families.

- I firmly believe that good people with guns stop bad people with guns.

And we're talking about people who are not convicted felons.

We're talking about people who, if you look at the list in the amendment, have to meet all the same requirements as far as what their record is, as what a concealed carry holder has.

- Senator Lowe, Democrats and Republicans, at least the ones that feel strongly about concealed carry, couldn't be more on opposite sides of this debate?

- I think so.

I mean, I'm a permit holder.

I went through the class.

I paid the $80 fee and I don't really see what the big deal is.

And I enjoy my constitutional right.

I think that the big heartburn that I had was that we wouldn't let semi-truck drivers drive a truck without a permit.

Now I know it's not a constitutional right, but we wouldn't let 'em do it.

They need to get training.

And I think that we have those few people that have grown up in a gun culture, so they know how to handle them.

They know how to operate 'em.

But there's so many that didn't grow up in that culture.

They wanna buy a gun and it's their constitutional right to buy one.

Well, all I'm saying is, "Hey, you ought to have some education."

You know, "You ought to learn how to operate it."

"You ought to know what the law says," as it relates to owning a gun.

I think that's very, very important.

Along with that, knowing how to operate it, knowing what the law says.

It's kind of scary when I have had conversation with my sheriff and my police chief, "How are you gonna deal with the fact that you don't know who has a gun when you stop somebody?"

For a lot of people, that could be really a dicey situation.

You know, in my lifetime, I've had a police officer pull a gun on me 'cause he thought I had a gun.

You know, I mean, this is real life stuff.

So I think that...

I don't think it's a good thing and that's why I didn't support it.

I believe in the permitting system.

If there's a problem with the sheriff, where they're not doing what they're supposed to do in their county, well, we need to deal with that and we need to find clear cut ways to deal with it, but to just let people go out and buy a firearm, you know, people get killed on accident and all kinds of crazy stuff or shoot themselves, there's been a lot of that.

I mean, I remember when we had a famous athlete that did that a few years ago.

- Let me ask Representative Chesser about this.

There's a difference in getting a permit versus having required safety courses without a permit.

What does the permit mean?

- Well, I mean, the permit's a piece of paper that says that you took a small class and fired 20 rounds at a target 10 feet away and as my colleague in the Senate just pointed out, there is a difference between essentially privileges within the state, like driving and getting a driver's license and constitutional rights and so what this says is you don't have to petition the government to execute your constitutional rights and so we don't do this with public speech, excuse me.

I don't have to take a public speaking class, although maybe I should have, before I can speak in public.

It might help, yeah, but I don't have, there's no requirement for me to take a public speaking class before I can speak in public and exercise my first amendment right and it's also important, as a former law enforcement officer, I like to point out some of these things.

You're trained to treat everyone as if they're armed until you know they're not and so, as far as interactions with the public, they should still be courteous.

They should still be polite, but they're also making sure that they're safe in their interactions with the public.

I promote any opportunity that we can get to limit the interactions between law enforcement and the public and that's a whole different conversation about the over-criminalization of our criminal code right now, but different conversation for a different time and so I think we're at a point where we're really just saying that the citizens don't need to petition the government to execute their rights that are given to them and it's also important to note that all other gun laws are still on the books, so all the behavior that we're trying to avoid is still illegal.

You still can't shoot people.

You still can't point a gun at people.

All those behaviors, the safe storage stuff is still in effect and so if a firearm gets into the possession of a minor, you're still accountable for that and so all the other laws and safety guards that we have in place remain in effect.

We're just saying you no longer have to petition the government to exercise your rights.

- I guess the question I have is I didn't know it was a big deal to apply for a permit.

I never had any problem.

I filled out the paperwork and blam.

You know, went through the class.

The class taught me things about gun ownership and what the law had to say, which I think is very, very important, particularly if you ever have to use your firearm, you need to know, okay, what's gonna happen if you do this?

You know, and I think that those are the kinds of things that to me, people should be concerned with.

I remember hearing as I grew up for years, if somebody breaks in your house, well, you can't just shoot 'em, but you think you can and most people think they can.

If they're stealing your television, you probably have to let 'em go.

You can you kill 'em for stealing your television.

- Well, that's the old Castle Doctrine debate.

- Yeah and there's a lot of debate about that.

- Castle Doctrine does exist in North Carolina now, so if they're breaking into your house, they probably have a bigger problem than stealing your TV.

- But, back on topic.

- Yes.

- Scott, I'm trying to remember this.

Seems like the constitutional carry issue arose because there was a perception that some sheriffs may be arbitrarily withholding permits.

- [Scott] That's what I was saying.

- It has nothing to, I've not heard anyone say, no Republican has ever said gun safety is not an important issue.

Help us sort this issue out.

Why do we, why would they say we need constitutional carry?

- I think a couple years back you did hear that during COVID times, that it was taking months and months for some of the bigger counties, the Wake's, the Mecklenburg's in order to get your permit.

And so, that delay was something that was concerning to folks, particularly during COVID when there were quite a spike in gun purchases, but I'm not sure that that continues to exist.

But that is something that was really out there in the rhetoric a few years back.

- Dawn, Phil Berger's name is on this bill which makes it an important bill from the Senate, even if it's just a performative theater here.

So, it goes to the House.

This bill has come close so many times and never crossed the finish line.

Are we debating a moot point and just firing up the Republican Second Amendment advocates who always expect the Republicans to file this bill?

- Well, I think lawmakers, especially prominent ones, have to balance what their constituents expect, what their base expects, versus what their own policy goals are.

Speaker Hall said that he doesn't have a timeline for the bill, so it could come up when he wants it.

Weeks from now, months from now, or not.

I mean, again, we were saying that this has come back and forth over the year.

Listening, I was in the Senate for the debate and a lot of it over Democrats who were successful with two Amendments, which was a little bit different with how things have been going there.

It was about law enforcement, survivor benefits, I believe.

But there's also political motivations there as far as like who you wanna get either party to vote for something.

So, I don't think it's something that's going away.

Clearly there are a lot of people who don't want you to have permits, but there are also a lot of people that say being trained to use something is a good idea.

I don't know how, you know, people argue for like, "No, you don't need training for anything ever."

- Right.

- So, I don't think it's going away.

So, maybe it'll pass the House.

I think it depends on what the House other priorities are.

- Could you see this bill leaving the Senate and the House as of this week?

They park it aside as a negotiation point.

- Oh yeah.

- 'Cause so many of these fast-paced bills slow way down when it comes to the- - Yes.

- We do not take hostages, Kelly, that never happens.

- There's plenty, plenty of that.

- And who believes that?

Who believes that?

I think I got a bill or two that's held hostage.

- We'll see what Hall wants and Hallenberger can trade in a couple months.

- Yeah, I don't think the Senate is necessarily innocent in that as well.

- They usually say no to everything.

- Yeah, we'll talk about it, but it'll be June 30th at about 11:58 PM when you really wanna go home.

But you'll be there another month.

We know how it's gonna play out.

House of the Senate Republicans reached a deal on a new half billion dollars and a lien recovery funding the legislation's carrying funding to address neglected recovery efforts in Eastern North Carolina caused by Hurricanes Matthew and Florence some, what, nine and six, seven years ago.

$524 million will head to Western North Carolina, Skye.

217 million goes to Eastern North Carolina to help build a lot of homes, is what it appears to be, among infrastructure, farm losses, and other hurricane related crises.

They are moving bipartisan in a very bipartisan way.

Seems to be transparent with dashboards and all this going on to the state.

Helene Recovery, it's every month.

- Yes, and a great topic to move on to after that divisive one.

[group laughing] Very bipartisan press conference that Governor Stein held with Speaker Hall standing right beside him and many bipartisan legislators behind him.

Only a couple hours after this passed through the legislature.

I think it shows a united front to North Carolinians.

We are helping you in the Western area of the state, but also to Eastern North Carolina, we haven't forgotten about you.

- Dawn, seems I read Representative Brenden Jones down around the Columbus County area said that they'd been in contact with Josh Stein and this new $217 million for the old hurricane recovery efforts.

It's gonna be different this time.

How's it gonna be different this time?

- Well, there are a lot of safeguards in place and, you know, Jones called his bill on that, the Cooper Act, you know, for as far as acronym bills.

And I think we know...

There's, you know, wanna make sure that there's no repeat.

I feel like it's fully bipartisan now, that Democrats and Republicans do not want the same situation that happened under the Cooper administration.

And everybody is watching every step of the way.

Governor Stein, you know, says he doesn't want that to happen.

I think he...

This was his first bill signing that he did.

It shows again that he's wants to work with Republicans and they have a lot of common ground on different things, and they can, you know, everyone can get a win off of this.

And then he is going to have...

He didn't have Helene money in his budget proposal 'cause he revealed it before this bill passed.

And then he is gonna have another ask.

This was the fourth bill, I wanna say, of Helene funding.

So it'll keep going.

And then also with that look of the finished the job in Eastern North Carolina and make sure that never happens again.

- Representative Chesser, legislators have proven they'll come together, they'll release money quickly.

Now that money has to be spent and turned into real things for real people.

What can legislators do to make sure all the money you've passed becomes real things for real people, houses, roads, bridges?

- So I think that's one of the lessons we've learned from the past.

Again, a reason for optimism.

You're seeing everybody come together.

Agree.

We cannot repeat the mistakes of the past.

And so one of the things we did for the eastern storms was fewer bills with bigger dollars in those smaller bills.

And now we're making it where we have to track less with each bill.

So we're gonna be doing more bills, but less total spending in each bill.

Makes it easier to track.

So we're making sure we're putting lead on target and we're not just scattering money to the winds and having to try to figure out what happened to it eight years later.

- Eight years later, what happened to the money in Eastern North Carolina?

Was it just not spent or was it spent on bureaucracy?

I've never heard anyone say there was anything nefarious going on, just other than just government.

- I think we're still looking into that and trying to figure it out ourselves.

That's part of the problem.

I'm sure that when we get to the bottom of it, we're gonna see that inflation over that eight year period, it was just huge and played a huge role in it.

But until we get to the bottom of it, and I think they're auditing it right now, so, I mean, I'll wait until the audit comes out to comment further.

- That'd be a fair... That's a fair assumption to make.

We'll ask you after the audit comes out.

Senator Lowe, you know, representing an urban county, a county with cities in it, what do North Carolinians that live where they weren't effective, how much patience do they have with Helene Recovery to see it get completed quickly versus they're seeing billions of dollars go there and it might cost them a pay raise or it might cost them a school teacher?

- I think there's, what I call, understandable heartburn.

You know, they understand what's going on.

So there's things, you know, we're fighting for some, maybe a new school or other kinds of things in our community, but we know there's people that lost everything, lost... Have nowhere to live.

You know, their home is gone or the road to get to their home, you know, is gone.

- And they don't want the same thing happening to them, right?

- Yeah, so- - So they're understanding?

- So there is some real understanding.

Now that doesn't mean that they don't want those issues that are germane to living in a city or whatever not to be dealt with, but they understand that some of those issues are gonna be pushed to the back burner to deal with immediate needs of Western North Carolina and Eastern North Carolina.

- Plus there's all that federal money.

I mean, it's up to, you know, Trump administration, and congress controls that.

- Got one last... Got a few minutes left.

Two and a half minutes.

But I want to get to Representative Chesser's bill, 'cause he and his colleagues have something out there called the REINS Act.

It would limit state agencies from approving expensive regulations without direct legislative approval.

It would stop any state regulation that imposes a $1 million economic impact per year on North Carolina.

It would require review process and then legislation to be approved.

Representative Chesser, I know that's overly simple, but is that the gist of this?

- That's the gist of it.

I think what we've realized is next to inflation, regulation is the highest cost driver for healthcare, housing, business, industry, across the board.

And so that was delegated away some years ago by the general assembly.

And what we're saying now is when it has a significant impact on the daily lives of the people in North Carolina, they should have someone to hold accountable for it.

And that would be us, their elected officials.

- Senator Lowe, what do you think of this?

Let legislature, let legislators legislate economic impact of regulations.

Sounds confusing, but I think-- - It is confusing.

It doesn't sound, I think that there has to be a balance.

You know, I mean, we used to say one group wants to give it all away and another group wants to defund, but it has to be a balance of both.

- Yep.

- And that might mean that yes, we look at how it's being spent, and we look at regulation, but we also wanna look at what's best for our citizens.

And I think it'll have to be a mix of both.

Skye, you work in-- - Sounds like Senator Lowe wants to be part of the conversation.

- We can sign when it gets over to the-- - That's right.

- Senate chamber.

Skye, got about a minute left.

Tell me about this.

If legislators were basically passing every big regulatory act in this state, it puts it right in the lobbyists' hands, does it not?

- I don't know, I think this only affects 11 different-- - [Kelly] For very few.

- Regulations.

So it is not hundreds and hundreds of regulations.

This is a very tailored bill.

And so for that purpose, I would think that it would not be lobbyist controlled.

- So people could still do their job in the state government, okay.

Well, we're gonna wrap the show up with that.

Great topics.

We got through a lot, guns and budgets, and all kinds of good stuff.

Happy spring, everyone.

Happy spring to you, Skye.

Always good to see you.

- Happy birthday.

- Thank you very much.

Thank you, Senator, good to have you.

- I'm supposed to bring you a gift.

- I'm trying to age in reverse.

Representative Chesser, good to have you on.

Thanks for your insight.

Read up on the REINS Act.

And Dawn, always good to see you.

Always better to see you, folks, watching us.

Email us at statelines@pbsnc.org.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

I'll see you next time.

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