(upbeat music) - Hello, I'm Nido Qubein.

Welcome to Side by Side.

My guest today grew up in a family devoted to public service.

His mother became a founding voice of NPR and both of his grandparents served as congressmen.

Today we visit with a talented chancellor of UNC Chapel Hill, Chancellor Lee Roberts.

- Funding for Side by Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by: - Coca-Cola Consolidated makes and serves over 300 of the world's best brands and flavors to over 65 million consumers across 14 states and the District of Columbia.

With 17,000 purpose-driven teammates, we are Coca-Cola Consolidated.

- The Budd Group has been serving the Southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape, and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction, comprehensive facility support with The Budd Group.

- Truist, we're here to help people, communities, and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.

♪ - Chancellor Roberts, welcome to Side by Side.

I have been wanting to talk with you because you are, if not unique, you're a highly distinctive CEO of a very important institution of higher learning.

In fact, the oldest public university in the country.

And you seem unstressed and normal to me.

How are you managing all this?

- Well, first of all, thank you for having me here.

Delighted to be able to join you.

It'll be two years in January that I've been honored to be Chancellor at Carolina.

We are the oldest public university in the United States, and we take tremendous pride in that.

We just celebrated our 232nd anniversary at Carolina.

- Remarkable.

- In October.

And I like to say, and I think it's true, that for every one of those 232 years, it's been the most important institution in our remarkable state.

It's the most important pillar on which we build a better future for all North Carolinians.

And the responsibility that I have, and that all of us who are fortunate enough to be entrusted with leadership positions at Carolina have, is to try to make sure that's true for the next 232 years and beyond.

- Of course, of course.

But you're a learned man, clearly.

You grew up in Maryland.

You were not born in North Carolina.

Your grandparents were from Louisiana.

Your parents were journalists.

Your mom was certainly very well, is a very well-known person.

And you're a political science major.

You went to Duke University, and then Georgetown.

You went to Duke University, and now you're the Chancellor of the University of North Carolina.

- Well, I thought we were gonna keep that quiet.

- Well, I don't think it's, I think people know that.

I think it's out there.

But then you have a celebrated history in business.

You were Executive Director with Morgan Stanley.

Governor McCrory selected you as the State Budget Director.

And so all of that must be helping you in a big way, in terms of relationships with people, in terms of contacts, and certainly in terms of understanding the financial endeavors engaged in running an enterprise as large as the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.

- Well, I think it does help.

I think these roles, you know better than anyone, they're so complex and multifaceted.

I think almost no matter what you were doing before, you'd have a lot to learn.

And that's certainly been true for me.

I think my background does give me some expertise in certain areas, and there are other areas that I need to continue learning about.

- But I think that would be true for almost any previous experience that you would have coming into a job like this one.

If you think about the role of the Provost, very common path to becoming a President or Chancellor.

- Not necessarily anymore, though.

- Well, not as much as it used to be, and it is changing.

I think it's good to see people with what they call non-traditional backgrounds leading these institutions.

But I think that's because if you were a Provost, for example, you would know the academic side very well, but you wouldn't have had any exposure to the finance and budget-- - Or minimal exposure.

- Or operations or real estate aspects of these large, complex organizations.

And so I do think my background gives me some relevant experience and some issues that Carolina is facing, particularly as a public university.

I did serve as Governor McCrory's Budget Director, as you mentioned, and have spent my career in finance, but I think almost anyone coming in would have a lot to learn.

- Yes, well, that's true of anybody who's, even those who've been in the institution for a long time, when they take on a Presidency, it's a different ballgame.

It has different demands, and it requires an understanding at different levels.

But you've done well.

For two years, you haven't had any major controversy that I could see.

You seem to be accepted by faculty as one would expect the level of acceptance.

Faculty are just like you and me.

They're normal human beings.

They wanna be respected.

They wanna have enough independence.

They wanna be resourced more than anything else so that they can do their job in the classroom and in research.

And I admire you for that.

I think you should get a lot of accolades for that.

And you also, you are the Chancellor of a university with a very significant athletic program.

And those of us who follow Carolina athletics, both football and basketball certainly, but also all the other D1 programs, are fascinated by the complexity that comes with that and the responsibility the Chancellor can get blamed for even when that is so unfair and unreasonable.

And athletics today, of course, has gotten a life of its own what with NIL and the portal and all the rest.

So I'm fascinated to understand, you came from business really, and you entered this public domain.

How are you managing all the pieces?

What are some of the things you had to do to learn the lay of the land of such a large university with how many employees at UNC?

- So we have 10,000 employees, staff members, and 4,000 faculty members.

We have about 32,000 students, graduate and undergraduate.

So it's a tremendously large complex organization.

- It's a continent on its own.

- And it's also pretty decentralized.

So like a lot of big research universities, it doesn't run like a corporate organization that has a similar size would.

There's less command and control than- - You mean physically decentralized or administratively?

- I meant more administratively, although- - Like the health system is.

- The health system and the deans, we have 15 deans of the different schools, and they have a lot of autonomy.

They have a lot of budgetary autonomy.

They have almost complete curricular autonomy.

And so when it comes to strategic planning and strategic direction, it's certainly not as simple as just sending out a memo from the chancellor's office and expecting everyone to fall in line.

And I think that places a real premium on trying to build as many relationships across the university as you possibly can, not just on campus, but the broader universe of folks who love and support the university.

You're never going to meet everybody, but I think you have a responsibility to get out of your office and try to see as many people as possible.

- As someone myself who's come from business, I find that very difficult to manage, what you've just described.

You know, I'm one who believes that if you make decisions by consensus, you're not gonna make the best decisions.

I believe that speed sometimes is more important than accuracy.

So all the things that I've learned in my own life would be diametrically different.

And for you, similarly, coming from business, it's quite an adjustment.

- I think about this a lot because a university like Carolina has tremendous stability, tremendous strength, and that's born of being the nation's oldest public university.

But the flip side is that we're not necessarily able to move all that quickly.

And these are times that require some nimble decision-making.

You mentioned college athletics.

That's obviously an example where things are in rapid flux and we need to make decisions in a timely way and be responsive to all these changes around us.

We're also seeing tremendous changes in the structure and the priorities and the process of federal research funding, a huge change for an organization like Carolina.

And then all of the changes being wrought by artificial intelligence, which we're just now beginning to grapple with, but it's going to change our research, our instruction, our operations, and it requires us making effective decisions relatively quickly as the environment continues to change around us.

And universities, you know a lot better than I do, aren't really built for that.

They're not nimble.

Historically, they're built very different than that.

Independent schools, as you know, independent college universities have to be more nimble, faster.

They don't have one hand tied behind their back with legislative regulations and other historic limitations, perhaps.

When I think of Carolina, I think of this phenomenal institution where research is born in ways that impact America and the world in very meaningful and substantial ways.

I'm quite familiar with some of that research and some of the many enterprises and companies that came because of it and through it and with it.

And I'm very familiar with some of the results that this has made that has truly affected the quality of life for many Americans and certainly has enhanced the performance of many corporations in America as well and many entrepreneurial endeavors.

So it is a complex environment, no question.

But the summation of this discussion is you strike me as doing a great job in a complex environment, which demands a lot of the leader.

And for that, I give you all the accolades that I have on this day.

But Lee, let's talk about some other stuff.

Let's talk about the fact that you were in politics, you know, temporarily, an appointee in politics.

You didn't run for political role necessarily.

And now you're administering a university that is going through some adjustments for sure, as you just narrated.

As you look towards the future, what is it that scares you?

Does anything scare you?

- So we wanna be the number one public university in America.

We're mentioned as one of the best public universities in America, fairly routinely.

But what if we-- - You are the number one in many different academic programs, let's say.

- We are.

And what if we set our sights on being across the board, head and shoulders, seen as being the best public university in the United States?

That's a worthwhile goal.

And we're starting from a position of tremendous strength.

Our strategic positioning is better than that of any other university that I know anything about.

When we think about our large public peers around the country, we have tremendous enrollment demand.

We have tremendous support from our state.

Our state itself is growing so strongly, a wonderful place to live and work and raise a family.

But we can't stand still, given how quickly the environment is changing around us.

So there are a lot of universities that are investing heavily and that are competing in a way that we didn't see a generation ago.

And there's more demand for research dollars, for the best students, for rankings.

We have all the changes being wrought by artificial intelligence, as I say.

We have the changes in federal research funding.

So those are all potential, both threats and opportunities for an institution like ours.

- And given that we both share a private sector background, our training is to think of dislocation and disruption as presenting opportunities.

- Yes, it's normal.

- That's not always the mentality in academia.

Sometimes people can be fearful of change, not everybody, but some people.

- But you know what I say, Lee?

I say change is inevitable.

Fighting it is a waste of time.

Transformation is optional.

- Exactly.

- And we have to make that transformation.

Well, that's a choice we make, whether we choose to step up and step out and transform ourselves individually and collectively as institutions, or whether we choose to just constantly be fighting change.

- No, that's exactly right.

And so how do we do that?

How do we make sure we're taking advantage of our strategic positioning to not just maintain, but extend our traditional leadership position?

So we'd like to invest in engineering.

There's tremendous demand for engineering degrees in our state and more broadly.

We have some specialized engineering programs.

We'd like to expand the capacity of those programs and add to them over time, given the tremendous demand in the workforce and demand from our students.

We'd like to increase our enrollment.

So the state has grown very quickly, as everyone who lives here knows.

Our university hasn't grown very much.

And so we can't grow as fast as the state grows, but we'd like to grow somewhat over time.

- Do you have capacity to grow?

I mean, physical capacity, classrooms, residential facilities.

- There are so many implications of enrollment growth, but what we're trying to do is add 5,000 students, so about a quarter of our undergraduate population, but to do it over 10 years, which is about as fast as we can do it, given all of those implications.

We do have 500 new students, additional students in our current freshman class.

So that means 2,000 additional students at Carolina over the next four years, and we'll continue to grow.

We have a lot of focus on artificial intelligence and making sure that we're not just keeping pace, but leading as the technology changes rapidly around us.

It has implications for our research, for our instruction, for our operations.

And we're trying to make sure that we're staying on offense, staying on the forefront when it comes to AI.

And we have ambitious plans for the physical master plan for our campus.

We own 800 acres, a mile and a half, from our existing campus.

We're tremendously fortunate to have so much available land, so close to our historic campus.

- In what direction is that land?

- So it's up towards, it's northeast of our campus, up towards Interstate 40.

So it's just off the intersection of Interstate 40 and Martin Luther King.

Tremendously well located.

We have plans there to build out over time a full-blown satellite campus.

It will be a live, work, research, study, play environment with housing, classroom, lab, office space.

- Undergraduate.

- Undergraduate housing, as well as graduate student housing, as well as housing for the town of Chapel Hill more broadly.

By far the biggest issue in Chapel Hill is the scarcity of affordable housing, which is a challenge for the university as well as for the town.

- That's across North Carolina, really.

You see it in Raleigh, Charlotte, you see it everywhere.

- You do, maybe especially acute in a town like Chapel Hill, given the demand and the relatively small size.

So we think we can use our land to help address that problem for the town and over time build out a really attractive destination, not just for our students and for our employees, but for North Carolinians more broadly.

- You have ambitious plans.

This is, I hope you get it all done in the next 10 years.

- Well, we do have ambitious plans, but I would argue that we should have ambitious plans.

- Yes, you should.

We all should.

- Indeed.

And if there's one thing that our status as the oldest public university in the United States should give us, it should be the confidence to know that we can come through any set of circumstances and not just survive, but emerge stronger on the other side because in our 232 year history, we have seen it all.

And Carolina has always emerged stronger, but it's not going to happen with pixie dust.

As you know, it's the responsibility of those of us entrusted with leadership positions to make it happen.

- Make it happen, yes.

So I've often wondered in the system, the UNC system, we have 17, 16, 17 institutions.

Some are large.

NC State is large.

Wilmington is coming along, 20,000 students.

They're gifted with an ocean, by the way.

It's a gift from the heavens.

And I've often wondered about the relationships and the competitive terrain between and among these institutions vis-a-vis legislative investment and other regulatory elements.

- Sure.

We're really fortunate in North Carolina to have such an effective and well-regarded system.

And the growth of the state is reflected in the growth of the UNC system.

Over a quarter of a million students in the UNC system now.

I served on the board of governors before being asked to step into this role.

And one of the most remarkable things is how different all of the 17 different campuses are.

There's really something for everybody in North Carolina.

And it's a tremendous asset for the state.

And the fact that we have a system with strong system governance and a really deeply experienced, extraordinarily capable system president in Peter Hans is a huge asset for North Carolina.

You know, there are other states where there are multiple public universities, but no system level.

And so there it's this Darwinian struggle between the public universities to go fight it out for resources in the legislature.

And it could become this zero sum fight where they really are rivals in a fundamental way.

There's some friendly competition within the UNC system.

- As there should be.

- As there should be.

Particularly on the basketball court and on the football field.

But there's a tremendous degree of cooperation and partnership.

- Collaboration.

- And folks.

- It's an orderly way to.

- Indeed.

- Engage these institutions.

- And everybody wants the same thing, which is a really robust set of options in higher education when it comes to giving as many North Carolinians as possible the benefit of a college degree.

- Talk to me about a couple of things.

- Well, there is one demographic cliff, quote unquote, which is not gonna affect you as far as I can tell.

You have tremendous demand.

You can dig deeper into that pot all you want to.

So that is more an independent college issue really than it is for large public institutions, especially highly regarded ones like UNC.

But affordability is an issue for some North Carolina, many North Carolina families, and certainly for America at large.

And what are we gonna do about that?

And how do you as chancellor ensure that on the one hand you have affordability for students who need to go to college, who can become engineers, who can deal with AI in an educated and reasoned manner.

On the other hand, you have 15,000 employees who also have their own challenges in life with their own families.

They wanna be paid more.

They wanna have a standard of living of certain levels.

And you have that balance all the time.

I can't charge more money, but I've gotta pay my people, especially when you're a research university like UNC and you're trying to attract competitively.

You're competing with the best of the best for the best of the best in faculty.

How does one do all of that?

- Well, it's a great question.

I think affordability is one of the secret weapons of Carolina and of the UNC system more broadly.

So our tuition has been flat for nine going on 10 years.

Our all-in tuition and fees at Carolina is $9,000 a year.

And US News and World Report- - For in-state.

- For North Carolinians.

US News and World Report does this annual ranking of the best value in higher education.

We've been number one 21 years.

- But I'm not sure that's in your best interest, is it?

- Well, so I think it helps us fulfill our mission of making a Carolina education accessible to as many North Carolinians as possible.

But you're right, it comes with significant trade-offs, particularly when it comes to investing in our people and in our ability to grow for the future.

And so that requires a diversified revenue profile.

That's why these changes in federal research funding are demanding so much attention.

That's why philanthropic support is so important for a university like ours.

And that's why it's important for us to identify and try to grow other sources of revenue.

Because as you know better than anyone, the costs don't go away.

They only continue to increase.

And if you wanna fulfill your mission of growth and success, you have to invest for the future.

And so we need to keep a Carolina education affordable while identifying the resources to grow and make the next generation of Carolina students even more successful.

- Yes, and the future will bring many challenges on many different levels.

But I am an admirer of the University of North Carolina and of your leadership.

And I'm like you, optimistic about the future of higher education in America, certainly in our state.

Our state has grown tremendously because of good legislation, because of good tax system, because of great education.

But it also come with it infrastructure challenges we all know, highways and so on.

And additionally, the demand for greater workforce.

And that's gonna be, I think a continued challenge for us.

But what a great challenge to have.

- Exactly.

- Lee Roberts, Chancellor of the University of North Carolina.

Thank you for being with me on Side by Side and best wishes to you as you continue your marvelous and extraordinary journey down in Chapel Hill and beyond.

- Thank you so much for having me.

It's a pleasure to be here on your beautiful campus and every other higher education leader in North Carolina looks to you and to your example to see how it's done.

So thank you again.

- Thank you.

Coming from you, I think there's a great compliment.

Thank you.

- I appreciate it.

(upbeat music) ♪ - Funding for Side by Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by: - Coca-Cola Consolidated makes and serves over 300 of the world's best brands and flavors to over 65 million consumers across 14 states and the District of Columbia.

With 17,000 purpose-driven teammates, we are Coca-Cola Consolidated.

- The Budd Group has been serving the Southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction, comprehensive facility support with The Budd Group.

- Truist, we're here to help people, communities and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.