[piano intro] - Hello, I'm Nido Qubein.

Welcome to Side by Side.

My guest today has devoted his life to public service.

As the former governor of Ohio, John Kasich built his reputation as a moderate and ran for president in the year 2016.

You'll enjoy this candid conversation with Governor John Kasich.

- Funding for Side by Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by: - Coca-Cola Consolidated makes and serves over 300 of the world's best brands and flavors to over 65 million consumers across 14 states and the District of Columbia.

With 17,000 purpose-driven teammates, we are Coca-Cola Consolidated.

- The Budd Group has been serving the southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape, and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction, comprehensive facility support with the Budd Group.

- Truist, we're here to help people, communities, and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.

Truist, leaders in banking, unwavering in care.

♪ - Governor Kasich, welcome to Side by Side.

I don't know where to start with you.

You have been in public service for so many years, for a number of decades, and I'm dying to know, first, how old were you when you first entered public service?

And second, why did you do it?

- Well, I was first elected in the legislature, the state senate in Ohio.

I was started running for that job when I was about 24, got elected at 26.

I was the youngest ever elected, and then I served four years in the legislature, ran for Congress.

I was elected at the age of 30.

And I remember the night I was elected.

It was surreal in a way, because, you know, I had no relatives, no connections, nothing.

I was truly a guy that got there on the back of a lot of volunteers and people that were just -- had no interest other than they just got -- they thought that we had things in common.

They wanted to help me.

But I remember the night I was elected, I was like, wow.

I mean, I'm going to go down to Washington and work with the president.

This is the craziest thing.

Changed the world, which is what I do now.

I mean, it's all about making this world a better place.

And as you think, the same way I do, that the Lord's given us gifts, and we have an obligation to use them, basically, I think, not to just be successful in some ways, but to be somebody who raises the world to a better and a more hopeful place.

That's kind of what it's all about.

- Absolutely.

You went to Ohio State, and you have a Bachelor's of Arts degree in political science, if I recall.

- You know, I think they should get rid of political science degrees, and I'll tell you why.

I've been at schools where I've told people that they should get rid of it.

It should be a leadership program.

See, in other words, it's important to understand kind of the workings of government and those kinds of things that you do there, but at the end, I believe political science should be transformed into a leadership program where people can understand what makes a good leader, what makes a good follower, because we can't all be leaders.

Some of us have to be followers.

Not one is any better than the other, and teach people how to present themselves and how to be really, really to change things, I think.

So if I were king of the world, I would get rid of political science programs and call them leadership programs and combine the knowledge of government inside of that.

- I see.

- What do you think of that?

- It's a good idea.

It's a creative idea.

Why not?

I mean, the world is changing so fast now that we have to be agile and adapt as we must.

But what is it that got you interested in running for office in the first place?

Because you've been at it a long time.

You were in House of Representatives starting in 1983.

You were a presidential nominee in 2016, as we all know.

And then you were the 69th governor of the state of Ohio from 2011 to 2019.

I mean, this is a remarkable tenure to be in political service.

- But, you know, Nido, I'm also on television, and I have a very active social media effort to try to communicate stability and grown-up thinking in this crazy world today.

And it's all about how I can contribute.

Now, I want to tell you how it all started.

I remember as a kid, my mother used to listen to talk radio over in Pittsburgh.

And one time -- - You were born in Pennsylvania.

- Yes, yes.

- McKees Rocks.

- McKees Rocks, right.

- Where's McKees Rocks?

- Just outside of Pittsburgh.

- Okay.

- Just outside.

So, my mother and I used to listen.

And one day, she was listening to this debate going on.

And we used to have two telephones in our house, one down in the kitchen and one upstairs in my parents' bedroom.

And she ran all over the house saying, "Johnny, Johnny, where are you?

You got to hear this."

And she came into her bedroom where I -- and I was the one on the phone debating the guy.

Okay.

I don't know.

I might have been 15, 16 years old.

So -- - And your mom was admiring of the debate or was she -- - Yes, she said, "The debate is great, Johnny.

You have to listen."

Okay.

And it was me.

- Did your allowance go up after that?

- She -- I mean, they were always sort of -- my parents were always sort of -- look, my father's father was a coal miner, immigrant.

My mother's mother could barely speak English.

So this was a world that was sort of foreign for them.

- Yes.

- And they were proud.

But they were always like, "What are you up to, Johnny?"

You know, and when I first got involved in politics, it's a really cool story.

You know, I went to see the president of Ohio State.

I was a first quarter freshman and I lived in a dormitory with 15 roommates and it was craziness.

And if you did look the wrong way, you'd get a fine.

So I got -- - Fifteen roommates in the same room?

- Yes.

Yes.

There were 16 of us, right?

- Wow.

- So I go over to -- so I get some things I get upset about.

So I decide I want to go have a meeting with the president of the university.

And they weren't letting me in and I made it clear that I was going to get in.

So they said, "Come on in."

So I put my hair up under my hat, put on my best blue jeans and went over to see the president.

And he had an impressive office and he was -- you know, the secretary wouldn't let me in.

I was impressed with, you know, with everything that I saw.

And I said to him, "Sir, I've been in school about a month.

What do you do in this job?

Because I'm undecided here and maybe this is the job for me."

So he tells me about -- - You were a freshman.

- First quarter.

- First quarter freshman.

- Eighteen.

So he says, "Yeah, I have this financial responsibilities and academic responsibilities and tomorrow I'm going to fly to Washington and see President Nixon.

He's a friend of mine."

And I said, "Well, sir, there's a number of things I'd like to talk to him about also.

Could I go with you?"

And he said, "No."

And I said, "Well, if I write a letter, would you give it to the president?"

He had never seen me before.

He says, "Yeah, I could do that."

So I write a letter from my dorm room, tell Nixon how I thought he was doing.

I give it to the president of the university.

He goes down, delivers it to the president of the United States.

A couple weeks later, I go down to my mailbox.

There's a letter from the White House, Office of the President.

I open it up.

I go upstairs.

I call home to my mother.

I said, "Mom, I'm going to need an airline ticket.

The president of the United States would like to have a meeting with me in the Oval Office."

And my mother is shouting, "Honey, pick up the phone.

There's something wrong with our kid."

You know?

So to make a long story short, I fly to Washington.

I'm 18 years old.

- Wow.

- They put me right outside the Oval Office.

And they say, "Young man, you're going to get five minutes alone with the president of the United States."

Pretty good, right?

- That's a lot of time.

- I'm thinking I got a new shirt, new jacket, new pants, new tie.

I'm not coming out in five minutes.

So they open up the door.

They say, "Mr.

President, John Kasich."

"John, the president of the United States."

The good news is we sat for 20 minutes in the Oval Office as an 18-year-old first quarter freshman.

And that's the good news.

The bad news is I spent 18 years in Congress.

And I spent more time as an 18-year-old in the Oval Office than I did when I was in Congress.

So I just -- it was just -- you know, I thought a lot about what's happening in my life, Nido.

And the blessings I've had with a great wife and kids and opportunities come my way.

Chance to meet you.

You're an unbelievable success story.

Your success story is so amazing that it's hard for me to see all the different pieces of it.

But I look at that and I think, "Why'd all this happen?"

And I just believe that the good Lord has had his hand on me and at times protected me and sometimes punished me.

But at the end of the day, I've had a really good life and I want to continue to have a good impact on our country.

- Let me ask you some questions that sort of just come to the top of my head.

What is it that bothers you the most about our country today?

And of equal importance, what is it that you admire the most about what's happening in the United States of America today?

- I would say one of the things that bothers me is the United States Congress, where I used to serve, is they're out to lunch.

I mean, either side, they just are so partisan, they can't realize that they've got to work together for the good of the country.

I mean, I was the chairman of the budget committee when we balanced the federal budget, which was unbelievable.

My team and the Clinton team and Senator Domenici, we all worked together, we got something done.

And even though there was fighting and partisanship, at the end, there was an opportunity for people to put the country first.

I saw it all the time.

And there was a time when-- and it still exists a lot across the country-- where people didn't see themselves, "You're in this group, I'm in that group, and you're a threat to my way of life.

No, you are a threat to my way of life."

That's very concerning for me.

What's the good part of all this?

The people get riled up and they get their way.

When people get really, really steamed up, they-- it takes a while, but, you know, they finally are able to get their way.

And the founders were so brilliant about the way they built the country that there were always somehow checks and balances.

And at the end, I think the people are the ones that win.

If the people lose in their heart the sense of, I think, the value system driven fundamentally by a Jewish and Christian tradition and heritage, which means love God but love your neighbor, realizing that every person's made in the image of God.

As long as we hold on to that, we're fine.

If we lose that, we got big troubles.

- Mmm hmm.

So, you're optimistic about the future?

- Oh yeah.

Young people today.

Great.

- Is there anything that worries you about what's happening?

And given new generations that think differently than you and I might think, that expect things differently than you and I may have expected, all that taken into consideration, you're still an optimist.

- Oh, yes.

And the other thing is, Nido, you and I are similar in a lot of ways because I think we're both creative, which I'm really grateful for.

But there's another thing.

And that is age is not a way to think about who you are as a person.

You keep your mind open to new things, to exciting new things.

So when we think about things like AI and we see the tremendous possibility to help us on transforming education and health care, so many things, we have to control it.

But when I think about it, it's exciting.

When it comes to music, I went to see Metallica not long ago.

And those guys know of me and told my daughter that they're fans of mine.

I mean, people go, wait a minute.

You're going to go to Metallica?

I say, yeah, of course I am.

But yet I'm going to hopefully go to see Bob Dylan.

So it's music.

It's art.

It's friends.

It's faith.

I'm reading a book now by Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning.

I just finished a book by one of the great essayists who ruled in-- was really prominent in Europe.

It's about keeping fit, saying your prayers, connecting with people, open mind to new things.

With some guardrails.

- I know that you're directly or indirectly involved in this evolution of AI.

What is it in your mind?

What is your definition of AI as you understand it?

And what impact do you think is going to have practically in a universal sense that we're all involved in somehow?

For example, we hear a lot of survey reports about AI is going to replace all these jobs.

Every college graduate is going to be-- better be prepared for tremendous transformation in their career and so on.

In your mind, where do you see the threats?

Or do you see any threats?

And if so, what is your outlook on this whole AI thing?

- What are the guardrails for AI?

I mean, as these things become smarter and smarter-- I drive a Tesla.

I drive my car using my hands and my foot about 25% of the time.

75% of the time, the car is driving itself.

However, it's not always right.

My concern about AI is a runway AI.

And Anthropic, the guy who is the CEO of Anthropic, has warned in a big essay that, frankly, you would enjoy reading.

We have to figure out how those things are programmed.

Those AI machines are programmed so that there is a value system consistent with what our values are.

But number two, in terms of the-- and there's risks connected to that.

But in terms of its practical use today, I just met with blue collar workers who are in the building trades.

Do you realize how - they carry these manuals and everything?

AI can talk to them about obsolescence.

It can talk to them about how to get smarter, about how to do their work.

I mean, there's so much potential.

So it's not just a program, Nido, in my opinion, just for those who are in college.

But it's a program for everyone.

But you should learn what it is that's practical for you.

And I'm hoping that our education system is going to help people to understand it.

Because this thing can come so fast, so fast, that if we're not prepared, it can be frightening.

- And Governor, what does that do to-- I see the good side of all that.

Certainly, it's like the whole world of technology.

We've seen it evolve and grow and be very impactful in all kinds of applications, industrial, business, individual, et cetera.

What's going to happen to our privacy as human beings?

- Boy, that's why all these things have to be monitored.

The problem we have, Nido, is the lawmakers-- lawmakers today are too intent on protecting themselves and what's in it for them, as opposed to the greater good.

Secondly, the companies themselves, they're in such a rush to get ahead of the other one.

Michael Novak was a great Catholic philosopher, a theologian, worked at the American Enterprise Institute.

He was a teacher of mine, in a way.

He said that a capitalist system that's not underlaid with a set of values is bankrupt.

I happen to believe that.

So these companies that are developing all these technologies-- and look at the exposure that our children have had to this technology that has pushed them, some kids, actually into suicide.

These companies have to think about, hey, you're not going to live forever.

When you're gone, you're going to be asked, what did you do with what you had?

And if all you were doing was taking care of yourself, boy, I don't want to be there.

I don't want to be that person.

So I think that this whole value system-- and I'm not talking about the things we fight about on narrow principles, but really, live a life like you want other people to live-- - You're talking about integrity and character.

- Integrity, yes, principle.

Everything doesn't have to-- it's great to make money.

But everything can't be about making money.

Everything can't be about winning votes.

Because at the end, my goal is I want at least 70% of what they say about me when I die to be true.

- What do you want them to say about you?

- He was a good guy.

He was a nice guy.

He was tough, but a nice guy.

And did things that gave people a chance to lead a bigger life than they would normally have had.

In these jobs I've had, I've had a lot of people that have worked with me for many, many years.

And I've always thought about why.

And part of it is loyalty.

I'm loyal to them.

They're loyal to me.

But I want to put them in an opportunity where their life can be bigger, where their life can be more meaningful.

I don't mean to be arrogant about that.

But if you're connected to something exciting-- I see the people that work around you.

They're excited to be part of who you are.

And they're excited about it because it empowers them.

That's one thing that I would like to be able to be thought about.

- So you have written six books.

One of them I'm familiar with.

It's called Courage is Contagious, which is a great title.

How do you write a book?

What, do you sit there in the dark and-- - Well, I'm a piker compared to you.

You know, I think that this new thing called Substack, which I currently have, it is really-- people don't like-- they say, I don't like social media.

Well, on my Substack, I can express things every day.

And nobody can shield what I'm saying.

They can't edit what I'm saying.

It gives me an opportunity to really express what I want.

And I sometimes wonder-- people say to me, well, John, can you hold that thought?

Well, you know you can't hold the thought.

I mean, when you have a thought, you have to at least write it down.

Or if you have a thought about a song, if you think about great songwriters, they drive down the road.

They get an idea.

They pull their car over, and they write the song.

- Authors are the same way.

Good authors are the same way.

- That's exactly right.

And I've done six of them.

And do I have another one in me?

I don't know.

I know that you're thinking about an autobiography.

And I wouldn't even know how to do it, because I don't know how to go back and remember all the things that happened.

That'd be a challenge for you.

- The hardest things is, number one, you can't remember details.

Number two, you can't even remember some of the names of the angels who crossed your path.

- Exactly.

- And you feel very guilty.

- It's hard, right?

- You feel very guilty.

You have two adult daughters.

- Right.

- Either one of them interested in pursuing a similar path like yours?

- No, I don't.

You mean in politics, like public life?

One of my daughters is-- well, they're both, first of all, smart, beautiful, and they're just good kids.

We're so proud of them.

My wife has done such a great job with them.

One of my daughters is sort of a charismatic, outspoken-- not outspoken, but definitely has opinion.

She could do stuff in public life.

And my other daughter is-- the other daughter is working now in health care.

And she's contributing a lot to where she is.

But I think one daughter could gravitate that way.

But she lives in New York, and there's not much chance.

- Would you encourage her to gravitate in that way?

- I think it's something you have to find.

I mean, I talk to a lot of young people about public life and politics.

And what I tell them is, when you're young, if it's in your heart and soul, then you've got to go for it.

But it'd be great if you waited and you made something of yourself, that you were able to be in business, get a little experience.

Then you could go into public life.

But I would not say that right off the bat, you ought to do it.

For me, I was just very lucky.

And one thing fell into place after another.

- You're living with 17 guys, and you wrote a letter to the president of the United States.

And you were a first quarter freshman.

- Yeah, I mean, it's the way it goes.

- You were a daring guy, to say the least.

When we think about public life and public service, we think about all the criticism.

We also know you get support, and a lot of people love the person, and so on.

But in this day and age, people can go on social media and say the most terrible things about an individual.

It doesn't matter if it's accurate or not.

It's just there.

And some of it will stick with certain people.

How do you and how did you deal with what I would call public criticism or individual criticism against something you said, or who you are, or something you propagated?

- Well, I mean, once in a while, you say something stupid and you have to apologize for it.

That's OK.

I mean, trying to run away from things you do that are dumb is not right.

I've had big victories and I've had big losses.

I just take them as they come.

But in terms of politics in this new age, I've lost friends.

I've lost friends.

I'm a believer that we should have people who unify.

And when I see political figures that divide, call names or any of that, I don't go for that.

And I've walked away from people that have done that.

And sometimes people have been so offended by what I've done that they don't talk to me anymore.

I just be patient.

I'm patient about it because a lot of times they come back.

- But you go home and sit in your lazy boy chair and feel sad, badly, you question yourself.

- No, no, no.

- You call your therapist.

None of that.

- No.

I've never really been too concerned about it.

And that probably comes from my mother, who was very outspoken.

We are a lot from what we get from our mothers and fathers.

And no, it's never really-- all I've tried to do-- first of all, I have, as I'm sure you do, I have a group of people I can talk to.

And I want to know if am I on the right track, am I on the wrong track.

Any leader should have people they can speak to.

When you have leaders that can't speak to anybody and don't have anybody around you can tell you you're wrong, you are playing with fire.

And so I test my ideas out.

But sometimes being a leader means you have to walk a lonely road.

And you have walked many lonely roads.

But that's OK.

- Leadership when the heat is on.

- Yeah.

- That's real leadership.

So I've got to-- before our-- unfortunately, our time runs out.

It's interesting talking to you.

There are lots of subjects I can discuss with you.

You ran for president of the United States.

- Yeah.

- Let us in, those of us who have never been in that inner circle, in that world, in that mini universe, if you will, in just 30 seconds or so, how does that work?

You stand there and debating people.

- Yeah.

It was one of the greatest experiences of my lifetime.

And I tell you what I found out in terms of being a political leader.

People did not care so much about my ideas, about what I'm going to do, about the budget or national security.

What they wanted to know is, do you get me?

Are you on my side?

And in New Hampshire, where I finished second, Trump, of course, sucked all the oxygen out.

But I was second and should have gotten a big bump out of it.

Why did it work there?

I did over 100 town hall meetings.

I would go into these towns and people would come in.

Some would want to hug me.

Some would want to shout at me.

And I was just out there being who I was.

And it worked.

And I think today the same thing is true in any leadership position.

Does the leader get me?

And so, yeah, I mean, I was on buses.

I was on buses all over us, flying on this tiny little plane.

But I tell you, I got to see America.

I got to compete.

I was the last person standing before I finally threw in the towel.

But it was a wonderful experience.

But you've got to be ready for it.

And it is exhausting.

But I wouldn't trade that for the world.

It was really great.

- Well, I'm glad that there are individuals like you who are willing to put themselves up front and center and to serve this country.

Governor, thank you for being with me on "Side by Side."

[upbeat music] ♪ - Funding for "Side by Side with Nido Qubein" is made possible by: - Coca-Cola Consolidated makes and serves over 300 of the world's best brands and flavors to over 65 million consumers across 14 states and the District of Columbia.

With 17,000 purpose-driven teammates, we are Coca-Cola Consolidated.

- The Budd Group has been serving the Southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape, and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction, comprehensive facility support with the Budd Group.

- Truist-- we're here to help people, communities, and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.

Truist-- leaders in banking, unwavering in care.