- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, the United States leads the world in incarceration, and Black communities have carried the weight.

But one formerly incarcerated man is making history as one of the first in the nation to purchase a decommissioned prison, transforming it into a campus for healing, workforce development, and second chances.

We're talking about breaking cycles, reclaiming power, and reimagining justice.

Coming up next, stay with us.

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(upbeat music) ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

Well, for decades, the United States has led the world in incarceration.

Black Americans, particularly Black men, have been disproportionately impacted.

One man has done something no one like him in the US history has done before.

He's purchased a decommissioned prison and is transforming it into a campus for healing, workforce development, and opportunity.

We have him here alongside a woman whose story adds an important and often overlooked dimension to the conversation, the experience of a formerly incarcerated Black woman navigating reentry and leadership.

So let's meet these two.

Joining me are Kerwin Pittman, Executive Director of Recidivism Reduction Educational Program Services, and Ciara Levy, Senior Recidivism Reduction Specialist with the organization.

Welcome to you both.

- Thank you, thank you.

- Yes, of course.

So we've had you here before, Kerwin.

We've talked about this, but for those that may not know your story and understand the importance of working in this space, tell us a little bit about your background, recidivism, and how it impacts Black men.

- Definitely.

So I am somebody who went through the carceral system.

I did a significant amount of time in the carceral system.

I was able to come home and really get my life back on track, essentially, and so begin to help other people through the nonprofit that I founded get their lives back on track.

And so a good portion of the people that we actually help are men, but we do help women as well.

And so been highly successful because the strategies that we're utilizing comes from our lived experience.

- Talk about recidivism, and Ciara, I will pull you in soon, but talk about recidivism and the rates here in North Carolina.

And what does recidivism look like for the lived experience?

- So recidivism looks like, and recidivism is the occurrence of which an individual go in and out of the carceral system, whether it's jail or prison, oftentimes due to lack of systemic resources and lack of systemic opportunities.

And so for a lot of people, those opportunities and resources just aren't there because of the collateral consequences.

And so in North Carolina, their recidivism rate is about mid-level for the national trend, but I see a great impact of it because I work dead in the heart of recidivism reduction.

And so for me, I always feel like even if one person is going back and forth from jail or prison, that recidivism rate is high.

- Ciara, I'll bring you in now.

If you wanna share maybe a little bit of your story, how does recidivism maybe impact women, black women in particular, differently than it might impact black men?

- With recidivism in black women, it's overlooked.

A lot of time, men get more attention than the women, so resources, different systems aren't fit for us.

They're looking for women for more so domestic and situations of that, but actually re-entering from the carceral system is a lot of time overlooked and we have very, very slim to few resources for us.

- And so in seeing that, you've created your nonprofit and most recently, you have made an amazing step in this space, an acquisition.

Tell us about this acquisition.

- So this acquisition is I've recently become the first person in United States history to be formally incarcerated and purchase a prison, a decommissioned prison.

And so this prison is the birth of the recidivism reduction campus.

It is literally ushering in a new era for formerly incarcerated people, system impacted people and the way we see the criminal justice system and what restorative justice actually looks like.

- Wow, so tell me a little bit about the campus.

We just kind of got a glimpse of it.

Where is it located and what are the plans for this space?

- So the recidivism reduction campus is located in Goldsboro, North Carolina.

It is 19 acres, it is 80,000 square feet with multiple buildings.

And so the idea is to flip this particular prison, a space of confinement and now a space of liberation and freedom.

So we're gonna do a total makeover of the space.

And so it is a workforce development campus, meaning individuals be able to partake in one of three tracks that we have.

And one of them is the workforce development track to where we would pair individuals with different second chance employers.

As soon as they get out, they'll be able to stay at the campus for free for six months on our resident side of things, save their money and towards the end of their six months, we'll have case management and social workers then look for them a place to stay.

So they'll have a job and a place to stay, which we know are oftentimes two major barriers.

The other track is our vocation and education track to where we train individuals in industry level certifications.

So there's brick mason, HVAC, plumbing, electrical wiring, all of the things that are essential for society to function, but the workforce is decreasing.

And so we're gonna train our people to fill those gaps.

The third track is our opportunity youth, which we know as at risk youth, but we call them opportunity youth, right?

And so our opportunity youth, this is our track where we would teach them social and emotional learning and behavior health development.

And so that looks like teaching them through art therapy, through music, through different art expressions.

So it's gonna be a robust strategy for recidivism reduction and for residents coming into the campus.

- Wow, that's a lot.

- It is.

(laughing) - And so you had to get help.

- Yes.

- So in comes Ciara, what is your role going to be in all of this?

- So at the recidivism reduction campus, I am looking to fill in wherever I need to be.

My heart is the at risk youth for the, you know, to be in that program.

But wherever I need to be, if I'm over here at the workforce development, I'll be there because as we know, like you can't just put yourself, limit yourself to one task.

It takes a team, it takes everybody knowing, you know, everything to kind of make that successful and to make it, be able to help everyone.

- Right.

From your experience in doing this work, is the system set up for a successful reentry?

- No.

The system is definitely set up for you to fail.

It's definitely set up to be a cycle of in and out, especially if you don't have that willpower to get out of that system.

So having that willpower or having the support, you can get a lot of times get trapped.

- Let's talk about willpower, right?

Because we hear often folks that have been in your shoes say, you know, I can't, I just, I can't get it.

I can't get an opportunity.

I can't make it happen.

How do you keep willpower in those moments and how will the facility help with that?

- So you keep willpower.

I know for me, when I had to transition, I was looking at other examples of people who came before me and was able to transition successfully and realizing that it's gonna be people coming behind me who really need that support.

And so the system really looks bleak when it's systemic resources, right, lack of resources.

And that looked like somebody coming home from prison and they have lack of housing.

They have lack of economic education opportunities, economic opportunities, they have lack of transportation and so have lack of a lot of different things.

And so when you mix this cocktail, it is definitely designed for people to fail.

And we know, as Ciara said, the system really isn't designed to set people up to win because the system was designed by people who are not directly impacted, right?

And so this is what we're doing at the Recidivism Reduction Campus.

This system that we're setting up, this strategy that we're setting up at the campus is designed by people who have lived experience.

I mean, we went through these systemic challenges, we went through barriers and we know the pitfalls.

And so now we're building a bridge over those pitfalls at this campus for these individuals.

- Yeah.

Last time you were here, we talked a lot about mental health, around coming out and dealing with the world.

Do you foresee that some people are like, I don't wanna walk back through the doors of a place that feels like the place I came from that was of confinement?

- Yeah.

- How did you wrestle with that?

- So I wrestled with it initially, because I knew that we're going to transform this space that was once meant for subjugation to really liberation.

And so what that looks like is aesthetically, it looks different.

We're gonna take down the bars, the gates, the Constantine wire, all of the things that make it look like a prison is gonna be transformed.

And so it's gonna look like a Beverly Hills kind of treatment center.

And this is the idea and the goal and the vibe that I wanna give.

And so it'll be a whole different vibe when individuals come in and it's actually a campus.

And this is why we call it the campus.

So we'll mimic literally a college campus.

- I love that.

And so we wanna go through it again, transitional residency.

You mentioned that there is a prison, a functioning prison right across the street, right?

And so Ciara, he said earlier, people are looking across the street, kind of ready for that opportunity.

What does transitional housing actually look like for someone that may be coming from that functioning prison to a place like the campus?

- So transitional housing looks like a pause in life when you are released.

And so we know that a lot of people are released without access to resources and opportunities.

And this is a pause to where they can come to a space and a place for six months or an extended period of time beyond that to get their stuff together, essentially in a nutshell.

And so we're talking about birth certificates, IDs, social security card.

We're talking about finding employment opportunities.

We're talking about transportation opportunities through our mechanics programs where individuals will actually work on donated cars.

And then there will be their vehicle after they're done and we'll set them up for that to be their vehicle to drive.

And so we're talking about a robust, multi-layered resources on top of resources, on top of support, on top of community, on top of behavioral health specialists, on top of mental health clinicians, on top of all the things that are needed for somebody to function in society, not just tangible jobs and different things, but mentally getting them prepared to be released back into society and just really take that next step of really getting their life in a good direction.

- Ciara, does that look different for women, especially women who are mothers?

- Yes, definitely looks different for women.

Again, with the few resources that they have for women, transitional homes, it's really hard to find transitional homes for women.

So if you don't have any support, you're probably coming out and you're gonna be unhoused, which is also a stressor, it's a mental thing.

And then especially women with children, you have to face that barrier if you're able to, one, see your children, 'cause there may be restrictions on you seeing your children or even getting custody of your child.

So now you're putting another barrier on me, a stressor on me, because one, I'm working to get myself together, but I'm also working to build that relationship back with my child that has been broken that causes generational trauma.

- Indeed, indeed, and we see that happening a lot in our black communities.

How has the reception been from the powers that be, decision makers, prison wardens, how has that been?

- The reception has been overwhelmingly positive.

And I was a little surprised, but everybody is excited and want to see, from what I've seen so far, to wanna see it win and a success of this campus, because we know that not only is it a model for North Carolina, it's a model for the country.

This is the first time in the country this has been done.

So North Carolina is literally the shining star for the country of what we're gonna do with recidivism reduction strategies and a recidivism reduction campus, the process of flipping a prison.

North Carolina is the shining star.

So the response has been overwhelmingly positive, though I do know we will hit some hiccups kinda in the future, but we're prepared for that.

- Indeed, and so with that, are you creating kind of a system where this can be adopted across the country?

- So we are, so this is a scalable model.

And the reason why I wanted to make it a scalable model, because we know that recidivism is happening all over the country, right?

And so we're gonna take this model, literally, one for men and then create one for women, and place this in other parts of the country and stand those up in other parts of the country.

And so ultimately, what we're going to do is transform what restorative justice looks like inside of the carceral system, right?

Because what we're doing at this campus is gonna make different correctional facilities say, hey, we might need to rearrange our tactics.

And it is gonna change what restorative justice looks like outside of the carceral system, especially when you build stuff that is literally for incarcerated people, by incarcerated people.

And that is the mark that's been missing a lot of the times in designing these different infrastructures.

- So when we look at this space that you're creating, it's for men, the hopes are to create one for women.

What would be uniquely different, Ciara, about one that is created that really focuses on the needs for women?

- To me, it would be different because now you have an at-home that, like you said, you can start with your ID and end with leaving with a car, residence, and a job.

There's really no facilities out here where a woman can go and say, hey, I don't have anywhere to stay, I don't have an ID, I don't have my birth certificate, and I need employment as a second chance person.

Because a lot of employment, you're checking that box if you've had a background which will stop and prohibit you.

So with working with a system that is built to kind of do that whole, make a cake in one bowl, it'll be very breathtaking, relieving, and then also having a culprit in there where you're able to incorporate reunification with your children.

- Would child care be part of that?

I mean, I think that that would be, not to give you, you know, tell you how to do your business, but are there, would we see child care be incorporated in that?

Is that an option, or are there layers that may prevent barriers?

- Right, it is.

- Cause barriers.

- So we do have visitation at the current campus now, but it is layers and barriers that prohibited due to some people charges, right?

But for a women campus, we believe heavily in family reunification and what that looks like, right?

And so this is pairing a female back with her family system and family structure outside of the different tribe that she's gonna receive at the campus and for the males at the campus as well.

And so we lean heavily on family reunification.

It is extremely important to have, to build a support system while you're already being introduced to another support system.

- Well, speaking of support systems, what does your support system look like?

What are the partnerships that you've built?

What are ones that you still need to build to really make this as strong as you vision it to be?

- The partnerships I've been able to build is with Second Chance Employers in Goldsboro, is with governmental stakeholders.

I think to continue to build it out, I will work on building more partnerships with different legislative components, right?

And so this is different representative senators and national relationships.

I think national relationships, not only with the philanthropic community, but also with the governmental entities and all of the things are going to be needed, especially relationships with communities outside of North Carolina.

And so what we're doing is magnified in North Carolina, but if we go to Georgia or South Carolina or California, some of the things we're doing out there in the community's perspective, they don't know about it.

And so building those relationships with community for those who are directly impacted is extremely important because once we get the trust of the community that need it the most, we can get the trust of everybody else.

- Now I know, well, I've heard of times where local neighborhood communities or neighboring communities have problems with spaces like this being created in their backyards.

Has that been a conversation?

How do you overcome that roadblock?

- That is a good question.

And it hasn't, luckily.

So luckily, due to the location of the campus, it sits in a proximity that is kind of rural.

And we really don't have a lot of neighbors.

And so our only neighbor is the function of prison across the street.

And then you have Cherry, the old Cherry Hospital that sits up the street.

And so I definitely want to be intentional about the don't put this in my backyard perspective.

And if it is in their backyard, the beautiful thing is was when it was a function of prison, it was in your backyard.

And so you was there.

And so now that it is a space of not a functioning prison, a space of liberation, and so I hope they will be well-receptive to it.

And if not, we do plan on having listening tours, listening sessions, plan on getting their buy-in of what the design looks like at this campus because it's gonna take an all-hands-on-deck approach.

And so we need everybody's opinions, thoughts, their buy-in, even now for the viewers who are watching this.

We need your thoughts, your opinions, how we should shape it, what it could be because it's an all-hands-on-deck approach.

Kerwin Pittman, my organization, is just a vessel that this is coming through.

This is for the people.

- What has the local entrepreneurial friend, cousin, neighbor, what has that reception look like?

- It has been extremely overwhelming.

So I've had to create a link tree to kind of create a container to capture all the people who want to volunteer.

And so, so far, we have close to 300 people who want to volunteer.

- And this just happened.

- This just happened.

So all of my social medias are full, all of the emails from the website, the email address is full, and so I'm getting flooded with requests and different things.

So I had to create a container to capture this information because I don't want anybody to slip through the cracks, and I want everybody to help if you're willing to help.

And donate.

- Indeed, and you've gotten so much attention nationally.

CNN just did a story.

We've seen this gain traction.

Why do you think it is that people are so enamored by this news of what you've done?

- I think, and I know people love an underdog story.

And it's a story that everybody across the country can relate to because we know somebody who just couldn't get it right going in and out of jail or prisons, or know of somebody who just couldn't get it right.

And so, having an opportunity like this, the first of its kind in the country, done by somebody formerly incarcerated, is kind of like a unicorn.

It's kind of unheard of.

And so when you get other people who want to volunteer and be a part of it, the response has been extremely positive and overwhelming because they are literally partaking in history.

This is history we're making right now.

A hundred years from now, we'll look back down the road and say, dang, they did history.

We won't, but somebody will.

Right, and say they made history.

And this is, we're now standing on their shoulders of these giants.

And so we're literally becoming giants in this moment.

So why not be a part of it, and be a part of the giant?

- Why not?

Why not?

What's the timeline look like?

I asked you earlier what you're doing this weekend.

He said, "I'm gonna be on the campus."

(laughing) He's gonna be working.

There's a lot of work that needs to be done.

Because as you said earlier, it is outfitted to be a prison.

And it's not going to look like that.

So what is the projection of how long this is gonna take?

Who's gonna need to be involved?

And what do you need?

- So we're looking at a two-year timeline.

And some people have said this timeline is too aggressive.

Some people said it's not aggressive enough.

But my spirit feel like we're gonna open it before two years.

It is literally, the structure, the integrity of the buildings, the bones, as they say, are literally good and good standing.

And so apparently prisons are built to last.

Right?

So the bones are pretty good.

And so it's really more so aesthetics than anything that needs to be changed.

And so we brought in an architect, we brought in engineers, we brought in general contractors.

And so I'm learning all of the tools about deep dive construction and renovation and different things of that nature.

- Is this an opportunity for you to incorporate black-owned business service providers?

- So I am intentional about not only using black-owned business service providers, but using directly impacted people in this part of this process.

Because even a guy who do the beautification of the lawn actually did three years at the campus I later found out.

And so brought him-- - At that campus.

- At that campus.

So I brought him in, called him in to do the tour, called him in to do the beautification, told him I was gonna give him a tour.

He said, "I did three years."

I said, "Give me the tour."

And so he literally gave me the tour.

So it's that type of intentionality I want to be when shaping and molding this campus.

- Now, and Ciara, please feel free to chime in if you have anything to add.

But that sounds like a lot of money.

I'm just gonna be honest, right?

So where does funding come from?

How do you-- - That's a good question.

- How do you tackle that?

- So funding comes from philanthropic support.

And so it's ran through my nonprofit, right?

But I also set up part of my nonprofit to do what's called billable services through Medicaid.

So when individuals come in, they're gonna have Medicaid.

We're gonna get them signed up for Medicaid immediately.

I'm gonna have doctors, clinicians, specialists, dentists.

So all of this will go not only into employing people in this medical side, this medical field, this behavioral health specialist, but some of that will go back into the campus.

So we're looking at that way, philanthropic support, grants, all hands on deck of monetary approaches.

- Ciara, I know this is his vision, but you bought into the vision.

You shared earlier that you guys have almost a decade.

We'll just go ahead and round it up.

Been in each other's spheres.

Why'd you buy onto this, and what do you see in this vision that he has?

- I bought in because it's a passion.

It's something that's overlooked in breaking generational cycles and actually getting back on track.

Because we have to think, the things that affect us now are affecting the younger generation.

And the younger generation is gonna be the ones who's taking over.

So if we don't catch it now, where are we gonna be?

If we continue to keep falling into that cycle of that carceral system, we're gonna continue to be overlooked.

So when Kerwin told me about his vision, I could see it.

Like, literally, from him explaining it to me, I told him I could see it five years down the line.

I could see the full plan.

And I wanted to be a part of it because I wanna be able to say, even if I only change one person's life, that one person is like a pay-it-forward effect.

It's gonna be a ripple effect.

It's gonna continue.

And if we don't start now, where will we start?

And when will we start?

- A thought came to mind as you were talking about our younger generation.

I have a black boy, so of course I have both.

But we do know that there is specific targets for our young black boys.

Is there a plan to incorporate them?

Like, you told me to come to the campus.

I'm like, Caleb's coming with me.

Right?

- Yes.

- Because I need him to see this space, to understand what this space means, and how he can be part of it, but not in the way that we have historically been.

- That's right.

- What's any plans to involving youth?

- So I do plan on involving the youth.

Actually, our third track is dedicated for our opportunity youth, but also looking for those who particularly don't even fall into that bucket.

I believe the youth, and I know the youth, need to see this in this moment as we're building something different.

Because years down the line, they'll be able to stand on the shoulders of people like myself, of like Ciara, of like my whole team, reps, everybody really moving to work for recidivism reduction across the country to really build on these issues.

And so this is just a launching pad for even greater things to come for the future and for our youth.

And so incorporating the youth, not only for tours to see it as a space now as it still looks aesthetically as a prison, but also see the transformation of how we've done this.

Right?

So it's an opportunity for them to tour prison, right, without going to prison.

- Indeed, indeed.

Couple last minutes here.

Let's talk, you talked to vision earlier in the green room, and you've got bigger visions beyond this.

How important is holding on to that vision?

And what do you need from viewers, from us, to ensure that that vision comes to life?

- So I definitely have bigger visions, and definitely, you know, my mind is always thinking of what's next, but particularly the vision with the campus.

I need all hands on deck approach.

And so what that looks like is in-kind contributions, right?

It doesn't have to be monetary donations.

- What kind of in-kind?

- If somebody has a lawn care service, right, and would like to donate some of that time cutting the grass, if somebody has a painting business, if somebody have a roofing company, if somebody have all of the things that would be needed, a fixing company, right, that would be needed that can take down some of the cost that it's gonna take to do these things and wanna donate an in-kind contribution.

Since we are a nonprofit organization, all income contributions are tax deductible from your business, as well as monetary donations, because it's gonna take money to stand these different things up.

And so you can go to our website, donate through our website.

We have secure channels and links that you can donate through.

We have a link tree that people can go to our website and donate on www.rreps.net.

And so they can donate there.

But most importantly, we want your thoughts, we want your ideas, we want you to be a part of it.

We want you to tell a friend to tell a friend to tell a friend, because we know that the more people know, the more we can grow this actual vision, it can come into fruition.

- Well, Kerwin Pittman, thank you so much.

- Thank you.

- Ciara Levy, thank you so much.

I appreciate you both for the work you're doing and we're here to support.

- Appreciate it.

- Thank you.

- Wonderful.

And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

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