- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, gospel music is a living, breathing art form that constantly evolves but never strays far from its biblical connection.

Today, we'll talk about its impact on the church, young adults, and other musical genres.

Stay with us.

- [Announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm your host Kenia Thompson.

Not too long ago, we held a screening of the now released documentary "Gospel" directed by Professor Henry Louis Gates, Jr. And the conversation behind the piece sparked a lot of discussion around the impact gospel music has had over the years.

Before we introduce our guest for today, take a look at the clip right here from the documentary "Gospel."

[light gospel music] - [Narrator] From the blues to hip hop, African Americans have driven sonic innovation for more than a century.

[gospel music intensifies] While styles have changed, there's one sound that's remained constant, a source of strength and courage, comfort and wisdom.

Gospel.

- That's a little bit of gospel.

Gospel music is soul, gospel music is R&B, gospel music is funk, it's hip hop.

Gospel music is the full spectrum in terms of its sound of black music and beyond.

- Well, gospel music certainly has transcended race, gender, platforms, and so much more.

To talk about how deep its impact runs, I'd like to welcome our guest to the show.

Our first guest is a two-time seller, award-winner, and Sunday's Best Season Six winner.

Also, you may have seen her on Tyler Perry's "Madea on the Run."

I'd like to welcome to the show, national recording artist, Tasha Page-Lockhart.

We also have the pastor of worship at Macedonia New Life Church in Raleigh, Dr. Tiffany Bennett-Cornelous.

Welcome to the show.

- Thank you.

- I'd love for you guys to just start off that clip that we just saw from the documentary "Gospel."

It talks about how gospel music has transcended, right?

Over all areas and genres.

I'd love to get your feedback on just what you saw and then tell us a little bit about who you are.

Now, don't go too deep just yet 'cause we will get there.

Who you are and how gospel music has impacted you.

We'll start with you, Tasha.

- I mean, just looking at the clip, I got chills.

I'm like, I'm trying to keep myself together.

When that bass came in, I was like- - [Kenia] [laughs] Right.

- Where's my tambourine?

That's what gospel music does to you.

It makes you wanna move.

It just gives you that feeling like, oh my God, I have to respond to this, right?

It makes you wanna respond to this.

It's the greatest music ever in the world.

And I'm so happy and I'm blessed to be able to sing gospel music.

- That's beautiful, and we'll talk about that response, that call and response elements of gospel music a little later.

Dr. Tiffany, what about you, your thoughts on that clip?

- For me, gospel music, and even watching that clip, gospel music makes me excited and it makes me proud about how it impacts the church and how it impacts the black family.

There's nothing like gospel music.

Nothing like it.

- Oh, nothing.

Tasha, you've been singing pretty much all your life.

When you shared your story with us before coming here today, you've got a lot of accolades.

Let's talk about how you even got started in gospel music.

- Well, my mother is a well-known gospel artist.

Her name is Lisa Page Brooks.

She was the lead singer of a group called Witness.

And so I was always just like the little girl in the studio.

And I was about seven years old, and they were like, "We want you to come do a commercial."

And so the commercial was for United Way.

So that's how I got my start doing jingles and voiceovers and stuff like that from the age of 7 to 14 years old.

- Wow.

So I want the audience to get to hear your voice for just a moment.

So I want you to watch this clip of Tasha's singing.

- Please welcome Tasha Page-Lockhart.

[audience cheers and applause] ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Open the eyes of my heart, Lord ♪ ♪ Open the eyes of my heart ♪ ♪ I wanna see You ♪ ♪ Hey, I wanna see You ♪ ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Open the eyes of my heart ♪ ♪ Who was the one ♪ ♪ When I didn't know my name ♪ ♪ Before I was born ♪ ♪ He loved me just the same ♪ ♪ And who was ♪ - Who is that?

- Who is that?

Dr. Tiffany, you are a pastor of worship.

What are your thoughts on a voice like that?

That control, the richness of it is so beautiful.

- When you hear Tasha Page-Lockhart, when you hear that, it makes you wanna, number one, be better at your craft.

But it sends chills, absolute chills.

Every note, every pristine note that comes out of your mouth is an anointed note.

- Wow.

- Absolutely.

- It's too early on in the program.

Don't you make me- - Don't make no tears, right?

- Don't do it, doctor.

- It really makes you wanna listen and you draw us in.

You draw us in every single time.

- What happens when you have a group and you hear that one voice that comes out?

How do you cultivate more of that when you are a pastor of worship?

- Well, you spend time.

Spend a lot of time with them, encouraging them, giving them opportunities, which is, and I'm sure we'll talk about it a little bit later, but I'm giving opportunities to those who have just graduated college.

- [Host] Yes.

- To be able to be on stage.

- [Host] It's beautiful.

- But that's what you do.

You cultivate that by giving them that opportunity.

- We'll talk more about your work at Shaw.

- [Dr. Tiffany] Absolutely.

- I wanna come back to Tasha and you telling us about your mom.

I wanna know how that relationship with gospel music really flourished in you as a young adult.

- Well, just watching my mom, and basically getting that training from her growing up throughout the years.

It was, I mean, in our household that's all we did was sing.

Everything was a song.

If you hit your elbow on the table, ♪ How you think those elbows feel today ♪ I mean, it was, everything was a song.

The whole family teased you about everything.

And we just made a song up about everything.

So, and then my mother, she pastors a church along with my stepfather for 27 years.

So they started the church when I was 14 years old.

So I've always been around church.

I've always been in church.

I've always been pushed to the front.

You know, you're gonna sing, even when you didn't feel like it.

My other friends are outside riding their bikes and they're like, "Tash, come on in, we gotta rehearse."

So it's just growing up I've seen it.

It just became natural and it just became who I am today.

- She brings up the church, the black church in particular.

Talk about the role gospel music has played in church.

Specifically, I'd love to talk about that call and response that we hear so often about, that some people may not know.

- Yeah, well that's history.

That is our culture.

That is how we live.

Gospel music has, the lyrics in the gospel music, they're testimonies sometimes.

And so those are the things, those lyrics, they help to bring people in.

They help to transform, they help to inspire, on a Sunday morning or whenever anyone is going to church, on Saturday.

And when you hear the music that day, it could bring you from a place of depression to a place of joy.

And it can help you just remember all the things that God has done in your life, and bring you into this, the present time, where you can just say, Lord, I thank you.

And you can identify with the lyrics in the song.

So, gospel music and its impact on the church, it is who the church is.

It is who the black church is.

- Tasha, some thoughts on the black church's role, and I'd love for you to give us an example of what a call and response in a sermon or in church sounds like.

- [Tasha] Okay.

- [Host] And we'll respond.

We'll try our best.

- Okay, so, alright.

So sometimes you hear, let me say this before I do it.

When you're in church, church is not, it's not a performance, it's not a show.

It's something you participate in.

So you have someone leading you, whether it's a worship leader, or a pastor, or whoever's up, a mistress of ceremony, and they're leading you into this experience with God.

Right?

So it's something that you have to participate in.

So if you have somebody that comes up to the mic and say, ♪ Let the church say yeah ♪ What you gonna say?

♪ Yeah ♪ Exactly.

So that's what it is.

It's getting you engaged.

It's pulling you in to this thing.

It's like, come with me, let me take you somewhere.

- And that speaks so much to what I feel, church is family.

Right?

Even if this is a stranger sitting next to me, immediately, we can hold hands, we can sing together, we cry together, we feel together.

And that's the beauty of it.

- [Tasha] Absolutely.

- I love the idea, if you watch the documentary further, it talks about how it bridges between gaps.

And we talk about other genres too, right?

We've seen the influence of gospel in other music.

What has your experience been with that?

- I feel like, first of all, music and singing within itself is like one of the most coveted gifts that there is.

Everywhere I go, I hear people say, "Oh my God, I wish I could sing.

If I could sing, I'd never shut up."

Like it's just everyone wants to sing, right?

And then wherever I go, I hear influences of gospel just in different genres.

And then they pay us so much respect.

You know, when I travel, as I travel the country and they introduce me and say, well, she's a gospel singer.

They'd be like, "Oh my God, I know you can blow.

Oh my god."

You know?

"Sing a little something for me, uplift my spirits."

So that just allows me to see that the gospel is respected around the world.

You know, sometimes we get caught in our little circles, but it's respected around the world because of its purpose.

God was very intentional with this sound.

- Dr. Tiffany, we've seen secular artists, for example, that will create a gospel album.

And some people, you know, they kind of feel a certain way about it, but they do well.

And most recently we had the Dream Center that came kind of under fire a little bit for using secular music in church to bring in a certain population.

Let's talk about what using music can do positively and negatively in the church.

- Yeah, so I think that gospel music, like I said, it can take you anywhere.

It can take you from your place of depression to a place of joy.

Music in general is what moves us.

And whatever that needs to look like in your church context is how you choose to do what you do in your church context.

- [Host] Right.

- I think that it transcends generations.

So you've gotta make sure that you are appealing to all the generations that are in your congregation.

So it can't just be a hymn day, or it can't just be contemporary day.

You kinda have to mesh all of it together.

And so music is important.

It's just important to the worship service, whatever that needs to look like for your church context.

- Yeah, I wanna talk more about the evolution of music in church.

But first I wanna go to this week's melanin moment, which highlights one of gospel's original greats, Mahalia Jackson.

[hopeful music begins] - [Narrator] In the heart of New Orleans, a young girl discovered her voice and her faith.

Little did she know, she would become the queen of Gospel.

Mahalia Jackson's journey was not just about singing, it was about spreading a message of hope and redemption through her music.

From humble beginnings to the world stage, Mahalia Jackson's voice transcended barriers and touched the hearts of millions.

During the height of the civil rights movement, Mahalia used her voice as a beacon of hope, inspiring change and unity.

Mahalia Jackson's contribution to gospel music is a testament to the power of faith, music, and love.

And her legacy lives on, inspiring generations to come.

- Now, Mahalia Jackson was definitely, I mean, she paved the way for so many, right?

I find it interesting that we saw so many female leaders as gospel musicians, especially during the 1960s, during that time of civil rights.

I'd love to hear your thoughts first on female leadership in gospel, and then I wanna come to Dr. Tiffany to talk more about that activist and social justice role that gospel played.

- You know, I feel as though there was always a woman in every man's ear helping him make decisions throughout history.

We seen that in the movie "Hidden Figures", you know?

And I just, I firmly believe in the wisdom of a woman.

It's so rich and it's so important, it's so necessary.

And so we're continuing to evolve and move to the forefront.

So you're always gonna see a woman leading a movement, and it's gonna be even more prevalent now today as we see what's happening and what's taking place.

Even our vice president being a woman and so of color.

And so, I'm just excited about being in that number and being able to make a mark in history through gospel music as a woman, as not just only a singer but a producer and a songwriter.

So it's not many of us.

So I'm excited about being a part of that.

- Oh, that's great.

We've seen women as the backbone to so much and when we talk about social movement and social justice, you know, she came up during a time where there was a lot of contention, especially for Black people and Black women.

Talk about the impact gospel music had on the civil rights movement.

- Yeah, sure.

So last year, the North Carolina Museum of Art asked me to curate music for the first ever held Lift Every Voice Black History Month community-wide sing along.

And during that time, I brought about music that brought us over.

The music from the civil rights era.

And during that time, I also explained that music, gospel music in particular, is a form of protest.

And that's what happened during the civil rights era.

You heard those chants, you heard, you know, before I be a slave, I'll be buried in my grave and go home to my Lord and be free.

You heard those chants and that is a form of, prayer is a form of protest.

And so when we sing gospel music, that is what happened during the civil rights era.

They used it as a form of protest.

- Right, right.

And we see that now kinda transcending into this new age.

We see a lot of younger folks who are, I wanna say reengaging almost with gospel, I don't know that it's definite they've separated themselves but I see this new just resounding connection with spirituality in a new way, in a different way, right?

And so when we talk about the youth and how they've kinda connected to gospel and used it, what has both of your experiences been?

I'll start with you, Tasha.

- I think it's beautiful to see the younger generation connecting with gospel and not forgetting about the older songs, the hymns, the songs that had so much substance behind them.

If you look at songs like "It Is Well', written by a man who his family was killed at sea, and when they took him to the very spot where his children were drowned, he pinned the words.

♪ When peace like a river attendeth my way ♪ ♪ When sorrows like sea billows roll ♪ ♪ Whatever my lot, thou hast taught me to say ♪ ♪ It is well ♪ How many people can say it is well when your children have drowned?

You know what I'm saying?

Those words are powerful.

- Just pause, I have chills.

I wanna cry.

That is just the power, right?

Of, because there's so much more than just the song.

It's the words, it's the meaning, it's the connection.

I didn't mean to cut you off, I just had to in that moment, right?

- [Tiffany] The testimony is in the song.

- Absolutely.

- Right, your thoughts behind the youth.

You work very closely with the students at Shaw's, we mentioned.

What have you seen?

How has their passion for Christ and gospel music changed in a way?

- So I don't get to work with the students at Shaw in that respect but in my role as pastor of worship at Macedonia, I do.

And what I teach and what I try to do, I work with some of the most amazing and talented and gifted youth and young adults that there are.

And what I get to do with them is implore them to sing all kinds of music in gospel music.

So it's not just contemporary and they're willing, they're willing to sing the hymn, they're willing to sing the more, the remakes of some songs.

And that helps them, it helps to bridge that gap.

So while I have the lyrics from the hymn that will resonate with our seasoned saints, it resonates because it's a different feel for our youth and our young adults.

So then I get to bridge that gap and I enjoy it every step of the way.

- Talk about the partnership that pastors of worship have with the pastor of the church.

How do you align that to ensure that you're staying up to date and current with everything that is being offered?

- Oh, it's a lot of conversation, let's say that.

My pastor, Reverend Dr. Joe L. Stevenson, gives me the platform to be able to express inherently gospel music at the church.

And so we talk all the time about what his vision is, and then he listens to what my vision is.

Last night, he came into our choir rehearsal, it's not unlike him to stop into the choir rehearsal just to hear.

And for him, he was like, "You know, I had a really rough day yesterday "but tonight you all bless my soul."

And this is rehearsal.

So we have that relationship.

At the end of the day, you know on Sundays, our agreement is that we bridge the gap between the sermon and the response of the people.

And so that's a moment where we agree this is the song that will bridge the gap between the response and the people, bring it all together.

So the importance of the pastor of worship or minister of music, worship leader, working with the pastor, we just did a workshop with the General Baptist State Convention, I serve as the director of music there.

And so in doing that, we just talked about no competition at the altar.

Making sure that we agree every single time, every single time that we are before God's people, that we are in agreement about the music and the message that we're giving to the people, yeah.

- And you know, sometimes the messenger needs a message too.

- [Tiffany] Yes, absolutely.

- What do you both do when you need to be fed into, do you go and listen to gospel music?

Do you like, or do you choose something else?

Like what other genres of music do you enjoy in addition to gospel music?

- You know, I enjoy jazz.

I enjoy R&B, I enjoy anything clean, good clean music.

But of course, gospel is my go-to.

sometimes I sing to myself.

Sometimes it's just me and the Lord just having our moment together.

I listen to my mom a lot, of course.

She's my all time favorite.

- [Speaker] Yes.

[person laughing] - But it's important to have that personal time with the Lord because when you serve in ministry, a lot of times you're not getting that experience that everyone else is getting.

- Right.

- Because you're working.

- Exactly.

- You're on post.

So I can't be at the altar with my hands.

[person shouting] Just crying and all.

'Cause I have to be serving other people.

- [Speaker] Yes.

- So it's important as worship leaders, as pastors of worship and people that serve in the ministry, to have that alone time with God by yourself at home.

And so that way you're being ministered to, so then you have something to pour out to others.

- Yeah, anything you wanna add there?

- Well, I think my favorite hymn of all times is "Great Is Thy Faithfulness".

And when I need to be in a space, then I'm gonna listen to that.

Of course, my husband is my minister of music.

So that's who is the person who's praying for me and who's leading me.

Although I serve in that capacity.

We all, pastors need pastors.

- Yes.

- Ministers of music need ministers of music.

And so I will do that.

I will go, I listen to Tasha Page-Lockhart.

[people laughing] I will call upon the Lord.

- Wow.

- I will listen to my favorite artists to put me in a place where I need to be.

Especially when I have to be in a place where I've got a minister before God's people.

So, absolutely, absolutely.

Going to things like Joy Fest that's coming up in June at the museum or even the next sing along that's gonna happen in February the 24th at five o'clock.

That's where my heart is.

- [Speaker] Right.

- Giving the gospel music to the people.

- And you said Joy Fest is at North Carolina Museum of Art.

- It is, yeah.

- When it happening?

- I think that's June the 14th, I think that is.

And it's at 7:30, and then the second annual Lift Every Voice and Sing.

I'm really excited about that.

They asked me to come back.

- [Speaker] Yes.

- So I get to again, present music from the Civil Rights era and music that just brought our people over.

- [Speaker] Yes.

- And that'll be February the 24th, end of this month at Saturday at five o'clock.

- Beautiful, five o'clock.

- Got about three minutes left in the show.

And I just wanna talk about where's gospel music going?

Where do you see it going?

And what do you hope for Gospel music?

Tasha, we'll come to you first.

- My hope and prayer for gospel music is for it to be what the Lord intended for it to be.

Which is the good news.

And to go to the four corners of the Earth.

I would hope and pray that more authentic, original creative talent would emerge.

I want people to be their authentic selves.

We already have Yolanda Adams, we already have Elisa Paige Brooks.

We already Tasha Page-Lockhart, like we already have.

Dr. Tiffany.

- [Speaker 2] Yes.

- We want you to be yourself.

You can be inspired by us.

I'm inspired by a lot of people, but I am so committed to being the best version of Tasha that I can't even explain it or articulate it because that is what God has for me.

And so that's what I'm looking forward to.

I'm looking for people that have been in the woodshed, that have been practicing, that have been studying.

Come out, push yourself to the forefront.

Do it afraid if you have to, but at least do it.

- Just do it As a pastor of worship, working with youth, what do you see?

- So I believe that, I think just thinking about what my dad did with me, I learned my first song from The Truth Its with him.

And it was "Have Faith In Jesus", you know, Truth.

Okay.

[person laughing] - I know Dr. Carolyn Vincent.

- You do?

- One of the co-writers of the song, yeah.

- Okay, let's talk.

But even in sitting with him in South Carolina, I remember him telling me, be yourself.

Be your best self no matter where this takes you.

Be humble.

- [Speaker] Yes.

- No matter what they say, no matter what they do, be humble, be respectful and make them respect you.

- [Speaker 2] Beautiful.

- Yeah, so I think that gospel music, as the industry gets younger, why not have more women in the forefront?

Leading in gospel music so that young girls can see the path to the Lord through us.

- Absolutely, beautiful.

- So well said.

Our time together has come to an end, but I know the work that you're doing will last a long time and very impactful.

Dr. Tiffany Bennett Cornelius, and Tasha Page-Lockhart, thank you so much.

- Thank you.

- Thank you for having.

- And be sure to watch Gospel on PBS NC.

You can find it online.

And I thank you for watching this show.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum.

And on the PBS video app, I'm Kenya Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

[upbeat music] ♪ ♪ - [Narrator] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.