- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, architecture is more than design.

It's a declaration of who belongs.

We explore how black architects and contractors are shaping the future of our built environment and breaking through barriers that have long excluded them from the blueprints.

Coming up next, stay with us.

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♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

Well, when we think about design and architecture, we often picture blueprints, beams, and buildings.

But behind every structure lies a story, stories of access, opportunity, and equity.

Today, we're exploring how black and brown voices are reshaping the built environment, from classrooms to communities, and the barriers that still stand in their way.

Joining me to talk about the redesigning of this narrative and space are two incredible leaders that I'd like to welcome to the show.

Andre Johnson is the President and Design Principal at Andre Johnson Architecture, and next to him is Jonathan Best, Director of Pre-Construction and Strategic Partnerships at Barr and Barr Architects.

Welcome both.

- Thank you.

- Good to have you here.

I'd love to start off by, you know, exploring the space of architecture.

I'd love to hear a little bit specifically about what you both do, how you contribute to it, and how did you get into this space?

We'll start with you, Andre.

- Okay.

That's a great question.

So, my journey into architecture started really early, started in high school.

- Okay.

- I was always inclined towards arts, always creating things, painting, drawing, sketching, even entered some art into the State Fair one year.

- Oh, nice.

- So, just always creative, but also had a side of me that was more curious about how things were made, how things went together.

So, building-- my goal when I was younger was to try to build a helicopter.

So, I'd take apart, like, my sister's hair dryer.

(laughing) - I bet she didn't like that.

- Absolutely not.

But I was always just curious with both sides of kind of what architecture is.

It's technical, but it's also creative.

And so, when I got into high school, there was a woodshop teacher and a drafting teacher.

I had him for two classes.

And he said, "Well, have you ever thought "about architecture engineering?"

And I was 15, and I obviously didn't know much about what I really wanted to do.

And after he mentioned that-- it was back in the days where you didn't have internet, so... (laughing) go to the library, you know, find-- - Do a little research.

- Do research.

And really fell in love with architecture, the idea of creating buildings that people will live in and work in and interact with.

It's really part of that drive and interest.

And I remember just from that moment, like, understanding I wanted to be an architect, but also knowing that I wanted to get that technical side.

- Yeah.

Did you see representation at that time in architecture?

You did not-- we're gonna talk a little bit about that.

Yeah, how did-- I mean, what did the viability of the career feel like to you then?

- Well, I mean, it's interesting.

My mom and dad always supported whatever my brother and myself and my sister, what we wanted to do.

So when I started talking about engineering and architecture, but really architecture, you know, my mom and dad encouraged.

And so, if I needed to go get a magazine or a book, they were there.

And so, I read about black architects, at least the ones that were prominent at that time.

And just learning about what architecture is, the buildings they create, the spaces they create.

So it was actually pretty fun to learn.

- Yeah, I wanna bring you in, Jonathan.

Tell us a little bit about pre-construction.

What does that mean?

- So pre-construction is a lot more than just estimating and putting a budget together.

It's managing the client from the time they think about a project.

A lot of times, a designer like Andre come over and say, "Hey, here's a depth and sketch of a building, "and we need to know how much it costs."

So that's pre-construction, have the ability to understand, "Okay, what the cost of a project is, "and we're not gonna start building it for a year or so."

And so, in the pre-construction, it also mixes working with our subcontractors and our trade partners, and in the full life cycle of the construction project, because as construction managers at Barr and Barr we're only as good as the trade partners who work with us, 'cause we've managed the job.

So it's creating those relationships, client relationships, and with designers and architects.

- Okay, and how long have you two collaborated?

- So it's funny.

I probably called Andre's office about five years ago.

We were looking at a project at North Carolina Central, and he was the architect, and I said, "Well, I need to speak to Andre Johnson."

And he answered and said, "Well, this is Andre Johnson."

And so, we've been working together ever since then.

We're currently on probably five projects together.

One is a Montessori school out in Greensboro, where they've been displaced for seven years without a building.

So we're excited.

We just broke ground and started the demo of the existing school, and we're gonna rebuild the school.

And it'll open in 2027.

- I love that.

I love that.

When we think about representation-- so we kinda touched on that a little bit-- you know, a lot of people say, "You gotta be in the room," but you're building the room.

So what does that look like when we create space for access and for understanding culture?

And do you consider that in your creations?

- Yeah, everything that we design is about our clients.

But I think in terms of your first part of your question about representation, I think it's still a predominantly white profession.

Black architects, licensed architects, only about 2% of the 150-plus thousand licensed architects in the country.

So the opportunity-- - Is that 2%?

- 2%.

- 2%.

- Yeah, and it's been pretty consistent in recent years.

It may fluctuate a quarter of a percent, but it stays around 2%.

And I think when you talk about being in the room, I think the opportunities are a little bit challenging.

A lot of times, black architecture firms are seen as small or not as experienced.

But when we do have the opportunities, I always advocate, always use what we create and my voice to help open the eyes of the public to black excellence in architecture.

And my staff is very diverse.

So when we walk into a room, you see men, women, different ethnicities.

And I think that makes a difference because it's different than what's typically seen.

And so by being an example of excellence and seeing the diversity in our studio, that helps change the narrative about black architects.

- Yeah, Jonathan, he kind of mentioned to my next question, when we think about the preparation, or people don't think that black architects or black designers or black firms are prepared, right, or able or capable to do the work, how is that to kind of overcome that hurdle of being considered in bids and contracts and being able to outweigh the larger firms or providers?

- I think first, for me, I've been doing this for a little while and I work for one of the largest construction companies in the world and I work for one of the largest regional contractors, and I work for a national East Coast contractor.

And I gotta give credit to Fred Hames, our president at Barr and Barr.

It's a non-negotiable for him.

So it first starts where I'm not having to push up, it's push down.

So, you know, when Fred, who's the president, says something and it's an initiative, everybody gets in line.

So I think that's the first step.

I think the second step is having the access to be able to be at a first tier on the project.

So a lot of our minority, especially black contractors, they're second and third tier 'cause they can't get the bonding.

They don't have the access to capital.

I'm literally in conversations right now.

We were able to just give an African-American female her largest contract, but she's like, "I need about $300,000 in startup capital."

Because in construction, she's gonna work for a month, she's gonna invoice, and it's gonna be about another month until she gets paid.

But she has to continue keeping her payroll and materials going.

So having those things like joint checks where we open up additional credit lines, but being flexible in waiving the bonding, saying, "Okay, we're gonna take a chance."

- Just define bonding for me.

- So bonding means payment and performance bond.

So when you have a bond, basically we do a lot of governmental work.

So when I go do a project for a school system or municipality or a state, I have to give them a payment and performance bond.

In North Carolina, the law says any project over $300,000 on a construction manager at risk, we need a bond from the trade partners.

Well, we wanna make sure they're paying, they're gonna perform.

So if they default, we have remedies to recover and keep the project going.

But what has come into play is what we call SDI, subcontractor default insurance, where we'll take 100% of the risk as the contractor for the trade partners.

But you know there's a catch.

They have to qualify to be in the program.

So what we've done at Barr and Barr is we've sat down and said, "Okay, let's look at the packages."

So this particular contractor's on what we call a general trades package.

It's labor, it's temp fencing, it's temp facilities.

Our risk, if she defaults, is picking up those contracts.

So although that's a million dollar contract, we were able to say, "Hey, let's waive the bonding "so she can be included and she can participate."

So that's what it means when we're trying to include and have creative strategies.

But again, it starts with a leader that understands and gets it and wants to give the opportunities and access.

- Yeah, I love that.

And so when we're looking at, I mean, we live in the Triangle area, North Carolina as a whole has just been booming.

I mean, you look at Raleigh, I've been here most of my life.

It does not look the same anymore at all.

Everywhere you turn, there's trees being cleared, structures being put up.

To me, that says there's opportunity on so many different levels, but as an educator more so, there's opportunity to get our students into this space.

What work are you doing, if anything, to bring awareness around this career and to show that, hey, this is a viable option for our black and brown students?

- So for AJA, myself and even my staff, my team, we do like K through 12, like career day events.

I've been fortunate to go to my daughter's school and my son's school.

So we have three kids, three boys and a girl.

She's the youngest and my wife.

We've all been involved with trying to be an example.

For me and my company, we do presentations, K through 12.

I used to teach studio at NC State.

So being present and being able to share what architecture is, is very important.

But also for the firm, when I started, even really when I only had like two employees, I started an internship.

So for African-American and underserved architecture students, I will offer three positions for summer employment.

So they wouldn't have to, if you were selected, you didn't have to apply each year.

You were just automatically guaranteed.

- Oh, nice.

- And when they graduated, they would be offered a position if they wanted to.

So in that time, when I started in 2013, we've had eight come through.

A lot of them actually went on, didn't stay the whole time.

They actually got other jobs in different cities or with different companies, which is totally fine.

But to really make a change, we have to actually get engaged with kids early because for black and brown students, architecture is not kind of at the forefront.

You have doctor, lawyer, some of the traditional, or not traditional, but more well-known professions for kids, but starting early.

- How early do you start them?

I'm selflessly thinking here.

- I tried elementary school.

- Really?

Okay.

- But high school is kind of when there's that kind of, like, understanding of maybe this is what I want to do.

But we try to start early.

- I may bring my son to you.

- Okay.

- I may bring my son to you.

So when we're thinking about designs, I know schools are some of the designs that you work on.

I'm sure you have collaborated, you're working on the Montessori School.

When you think about the designs of school, thoughtful elements that make learning easier, what goes into that mindset?

I mean, I've seen and we're showing some of your designs on screen.

They're beautiful.

Just absolutely beautiful.

And it just makes my brain work.

So what approach goes into creating something that really fuels a student's mind?

And I'll start here, and then maybe you can kind of collaborate with that question.

- Jonathan and I talk all the time.

I'll start first.

We talk probably five or six times a day.

- Wow.

- But when we create spaces, the way that we design, it's always, we start with listening.

So even with one of our projects that was showing us at elementary school.

So we actually met with the administrators and they got feedback from kids.

And just really trying to understand what's the right thing to do for learning.

So while we have an expertise, always tell people that every building that we build is new to the client that we're building it for.

And so being able to listen and understand kind of what people want and what works for them.

So the Montessori School, Jonathan and I are working on, we've listened to the principal and we talk, and that's really kind of our expertise as AJAs.

Listening and taking what's intangible to make it tangible in the end.

- Do you wanna add?

- And then we're jumping off of the designs and looking at the constructability.

So the great thing about us talking and collaborating all the time, is our staffs work very well together.

So when his team has an idea, he's able to put it on paper, he's able to bring it over to our office.

It's about 20 steps and say, "Hey, what do you think about this?

"How does this look from a constructability standpoint?"

Then we'll put it in virtual design and construction.

I think that's very important that we continue to do that more.

We're looking at AI and different things, 'cause that's what's interesting to youth and younger people.

But it's really taking that vision and then able for like a principal who doesn't really understand the vision, can see it and they can virtually walk through it.

And then that way we're all in alignment.

- It connects it, right.

Earlier you talked about assistance or acknowledgement that on the funding side, there is support.

When we think about training and education for contractors, is there anything specifically out there for minorities that kind of help really understand the hurdles that they may have to overcome in order to have the right acumen and the right understanding for going into a project like that?

- Yeah, I mean, all contractors we have, a lot of us large contractors have a training program, but I say it's really gaining a mentor.

I have mentors that I'm coming up through the industry, but a person who can kind of guide you and help you, the person can also kind of forewarn you.

So in construction, we work in a one chance kind of opportunity.

So then if our operations team say, hey, we don't wanna work with this person, it's difficult to work with them.

So you gotta understand, but you gotta be willing to put some time in.

Too many times I see a minority contractor want us to just hand them something because they're a minority contractor, but you gotta put the work in.

You know, RHD who we're working with, we just gave them their largest contract.

They've been working with me for four years to get to this point.

Never complained, every training, every seminar we did, they're there, they're on the front lawn, they're engaged.

And so now they've been rewarded with this large contract.

And a lot of times I just see that people don't wanna put the time in.

I'll put the time in with you.

You can call me at seven o'clock, eight o'clock, nine o'clock, 10 o'clock at night, early in the morning, but you gotta meet me halfway.

- What is the first step?

Let's say we have some folks who are making career changes right now, right?

They're losing jobs, they're looking for something that may be more fulfilling.

Maybe they've always been that creative person.

If I wanted to enter into this space now at my big age, what does that look like?

- Well, I think anytime you come into architecture, you, Jonathan said it right, for architecture, I know you was talking about construction, but you need someone to guide you.

You need a mentor.

I was very fortunate to have mentors throughout my entire education and career.

So let's say if you called me tomorrow and said, "I really wanna do architecture."

For me, I'm always available to help and assist.

I work with folks that aren't part of my team, that work for competitors, even some people that are competitors, we help each other.

So I think that's really the first thing.

The other thing is it is challenging for architecture.

It's five years minimum for your undergraduate.

- I was gonna ask.

- Yeah.

- Even if I already have my degree.

- Okay, so if you have an unrelated degree, I think it's about three and a half years.

- Okay, that's not too bad.

- Yeah, so it's not bad, but it is rigorous.

- Yeah.

- But it's a lot of fun.

- It seems like it.

And again, I'm a creative person, which is why to me, it wouldn't seem that bad.

And I love, I don't know if you both, I'm sure you both have been to the Freedom Park in Raleigh.

I love seeing this kind of new emergence of what design looks like in public.

And I mean, I guess we've always seen erected statues and monuments, but Freedom Park, if you haven't been, is definitely a place to go and see history, see design in a very minimal way, but very impactful.

And we know that Phil Freelon was key to that space.

Talk about the impact that Phil Freelon has had on both of your careers and how spaces like that shift culture, shift a society.

We'll start with you.

- Yeah, so I think I'll start with designing spaces that I can connect.

But I think when the important thing when you're doing excellent design, it is about, like I said, taking the intangible ideas and almost connecting emotionally.

Projects that we work on, we have a few, actually all of our projects, we get connected with, but there are a few that kind of touch to the emotional side and the personal side.

One of them is Carver Community Center at Pleasant Grove in Wendell.

That was a collaboration between Pleasant Grove, the town of Wendell, Congresswoman Ross.

So local, Wake County, and Fed came together to really create this community space on the church's property from an old Rosenwald, what was a former Rosenwald site, then became a Wake County public school.

I bring that project up because there's a healing of the past with the project.

And there's an emotional historical connection.

And when we talk about the project, you see members of the church and the community with tears in their eyes.

And so when we design, that's really what it's about.

It's not about creating something that's an object.

It's about taking history, emotion, those things, and making it into something that people will respond to.

And so when we talk about Freedom Park and Phil went out, so after I went to A&T, so proud Aggie, then went to Morgan State.

So I got my engineering degree first and then my master's in architecture.

So proud Aggie and proud Bear.

I moved back to North Carolina and Phil gave me an opportunity to move back.

I wanted to be closer to family.

And it was really fortunate to see and work with him.

I actually got to work on a few museum projects.

I left before the African-American Museum started, but really being able to see how he approaches projects and everything had to be excellent.

So a business card, it wasn't just a business card.

It had to be excellent.

So seeing that makes a difference.

And I think that spirit of excellence and spirit of connection with the people that you're building spaces for leads to projects like what you're saying with Freedom Park and the African-American Museum in DC and the projects that we're working on with even Fertile Ground Food Cooperative.

So those are things that really resonate with me.

- Before you add on to that, I wanna bring in the concept of green building.

And we're moving into a space of having more sustainability, being more aware of our surroundings and our environment.

Maybe share a little bit about what that looks like in construction and how are you conscious of that?

- I think we're conscious of it and it has to be embedded in your system.

So there's a myth that green building and environment costs a lot more money, but there are very simple things that can be done.

Like for example, working on a project where Andre is actually his personal office and he's gonna do a green roof.

And that green roof costs a little bit more money, but the value that we're gonna bring to the environment and to the sustainability, you have to be very conscious and you have to find little ways to incorporate it without it becoming a great cost.

'Cause at one point in time in the industry, we went too wild with it.

And then going too wild with it, it started bringing on additional costs to projects.

I think I've seen a great scale back, but it's meaningful.

- Meaningful work, yeah.

And so any spaces that you wanna call out that have in the area that are considered green building?

- Andre's office is.

- Okay.

- AJ Architects Plus office.

There are a lot of buildings you have to look at 'cause you have green globes and then you have lead.

Lead's kind of not as prominent anymore, but you have green globes.

A lot of buildings you'll see have simple things like the flushing mechanisms, the water coming out, recycling the water and it's going somewhere else.

So you will see it and not really know it.

- That's what I was gonna ask.

What does that look like?

- So it could look like, a lot of times maybe water is captured and then stored in a tank and then that could be like the water that's like irrigating the landscape and things like that.

The natural lighting, so you're not having to cut on lights, solar panels, things like that.

- Nice.

When you both look at the future of architecture, what do you see?

I mean, AI feels like anything's possible now, right?

We don't even know what's real and what's not.

But I've seen your designs and I know that they are very futuristic.

What do you see?

What do you hope for?

And then how do you see black students potentially contributing to the space in the future?

- Good question.

Even within my studio, they ask, we talk about AI.

So I grew up without cell phones and all this stuff.

So I don't know.

I might be the old head that won't deal with AI.

But I think there are some advantages to be honest with you with certain things, but the creative and kind of the ability to adapt and respond dynamically.

It's kind of more than algorithms.

There's an emotional connection with architecture.

So I see it playing a part, but not dominating the field.

And I think as far as how black architects impact the profession, while I mentioned the 2% that's been low, I mean, it's very low for 150 plus thousand professionals.

But in terms of enrollment in school, it's higher.

- Okay.

- So I think that is a positive.

I think that as the profession continues and you see black excellence in architecture firms, you'll have more kids interested.

And then that will help influence design because right now, like in our studio, we have a wide range of diversity and that helps us design.

And it leads to success in design versus just kind of one direction.

- About 30 seconds, I wanna give you, what's the future?

What are your hopes?

- I think AI is helping our industry a lot, especially in construction.

We're able to estimate quicker.

We're able to use it for scheduling.

We're able to look at it for financials.

Do wanna give a shout out to Breva.

They're a minority owned kind of AI financial institution and I'm actually working with them right now to create a financial model, an estimated model that use AI to help our minority and small businesses.

So that's the future.

We see it moving to AI, but responsible AI.

- Wonderful, Jonathan Best, Andre Johnson, thank you so much for being here.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

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