- [James] "Shaped by Sound" combines performance and conversation to capture the depth of the North Carolina music scene.

Listening to dreamy country music by Blue Cactus might make you feel like you're floating or you've got your head in the clouds.

And that's the point.

For Steph and Mario, their music is inspired by many things, and, for now, it's about looking upward and searching for silver linings.

Today on the "Shaped by Sound" podcast, we're in conversation with Steph Stewart and Mario Arnez of Blue Cactus.

Steph, Mario, thank you for being here on "Shaped by Sound."

- Thanks for having us.

- Of course.

I kind of wanna jump right into...

So, Steph, you're from Catawba, North Carolina, and, Mario, you're from South Florida.

- Yep.

- What was that like kind of growing up for you both in those areas?

- Well, Catawba is a really small town.

We have one stoplight and five churches, I think.

And when I was a kid growing up there, you know, a lot of the downtown had kind of turned into a ghost town.

So it felt like a place that I wanted to like leave in a way.

Although, like I loved the people there and I still do.

I grew up with a lot of the same kids.

Like from the time we were in kindergarten up through like graduation, it was the same crew of kids, you know, 'cause it's a really small town.

And if you don't move away, you stay in the same school system and keep moving up together.

- Right.

Were there like 50 kids in your graduating class or something?

- We had a little bit more than that.

I think we were right around a hundred.

You know, it was really small.

- Everybody knows your business.

- Pretty much, yeah.

And Hickory was like the big city near us.

So that's kind of where we would go to hang out.

And by hang out, I mean like go to like the Barnes & Noble coffee shop, you know?

Or there was another one a little further away that was kind of cooler called Drips, where I did my open mic.

But, yeah, I feel like in retrospect I'm really grateful that I grew up in a small town and had that experience.

But, yeah, at the time, especially in my teenage years, it felt like a place I was kind of growing out of and wanted to like explore more of the world and, you know, see what else was out there.

- Yeah.

What is it that you are particularly grateful for now?

- For sure the sense of community.

I had teachers who really cared about me.

You know, like even after I'd like moved on from their classes, I'd go back to see my middle school teacher when I was in high school and just hang out.

'Cause that middle school is like right across the street.

So I feel really fortunate for that.

I mean, my family, my parents live in a pretty rural area, so folks are pretty spread out and kind of keep to themselves.

But if you need each other, they're there for you, you know?

- Yeah.

- So I feel like I found that where we live now in Chapel Hill, and it's really important to me.

- And Mario's from South Florida.

Where in South Florida?

- In Naples is where I grew up and then went to school in Fort Myers.

- Mm-hmm.

- Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of special parts about growing up in a place like that.

I mean, the wildlife and the landscape is really special.

I've come to appreciate.

I mean, I wanted to move away after, you know, being there through my 20s.

Just kind of the hometown thing of wanting to go somewhere else and actually get some seasons.

'Cause it is just hot and getting hotter all the time, and your car is an oven whenever you want to use it, you know?

But, yeah, there are a lot of special things about it that I really appreciate looking back on it now, of, you know, always hearing bugs every time you walk out of the house.

It's kind of different.

Being by the ocean.

I realized after moving to North Carolina, after a while, I realized that was pretty different to not have kind of water pretty close by at all times or sort of that ocean breeze.

- [James] Yeah.

- Okay.

- What was the music y'all were listening to when you were growing up?

- Hmm.

I think, well, as a little kid, you know, I just listened to the things the adults in my life were listening to.

- [James] Yeah.

- And so that was like 90's country, classic rock.

- Hey, that was a great time to be alive, though.

- It really was.

Like, yes.

Yeah, it was really good music for like, you know, Clear Channel Radio at the time.

And my granddad was really into classic country, so I got an early exposure to like Patsy Cline, Johnny Cash, and Ernest Tubb, folks like that.

So.

But then like later on, I think right before middle school, probably fifth grade or so, I started to like develop my own taste in music.

And it was sort of through my friends at the time and what they were listening to influencing, you know, we were sharing CDs.

And so I got into like the Lilith Fair scene.

You know, like that was really big for me.

- Yeah.

- As like a teenager.

And all the women who were a part of that.

So, yeah.

And I would say like The Cranberries was probably the first band that I really loved that like no one in my family was really into.

But, you know, that was kind of like my band.

- Yeah.

- And I bought like all their CDs.

- Yeah, were they like, "Steph, what are you listening to?"?

- Yeah, you know, I think they were just like, "Can you turn that down?"

[all laugh] - Can you turn it off?

How dare they, though.

- Yeah, it was cool, though.

They were accepting of it, but it was definitely like, it was my music.

And then they had something else that, you know, was theirs.

- Yeah, Mario what was making it onto your burned CDs?

- Mm, well, my sister who's three years older, she had Nirvana "Nevermind."

And that was one of the first, I think, you know, real albums that kind of came into my orbit at a pretty young age that just like, "Oh, what's this?"

"This is..." You know, it actually stuck.

Also, my mom had gotten me, there was a Beach Boys tape that I had, and "Sloop John B" just like went straight in, something I just played it over and over.

That was probably one of the earliest songs that like just had the experience of wanting to play it over and over again and listen to it.

But, yeah, probably Nirvana's one of 'em, and then one of the first artists that became sort of a, "I need to find all the albums," was Weird Al.

- Really?

- For some reason.

I mean... - Talk to me more about that.

- For a lot of great reasons, obviously.

- Yeah.

- I mean, I guess I was just a key demographic.

You know, this was, I mean, it was actually my first concert in middle school.

- What was that scene like?

- I mean, it probably wasn't too weird, you know, it was just like a... - You mean the Weird Al show wasn't too weird?

- I mean... - What did you wear?

- Yeah.

- [Steph] Do you remember?

- I mean, probably a black T-shirt.

I mean, this was like middle school, you know, what else would I have worn?

- You had to be cool going to the Weird Al show.

- I have no idea what my sense of cool was at the time.

Let's see, this was "Running with Scissors" Tour.

This was "The Saga Begins," "It's All About the Pentiums."

Those were the big singles, you know?

- Did you find yourself gravitating toward a lot of accordion music at the time too?

- I thought there might've been a period of time where I would've picked up an accordion had it been, you know, thrown on me.

But, no, guitar ended up happening.

- Yeah.

- Luckily for everyone.

- [Steph] Yeah, that's pretty lucky.

[all laugh] - As you're starting to sort of, you know, branch out into that new music that you, you know, are starting to experience, the Lilith Fair stuff, you know, Weird Al or The Beach Boys, right, you know, how is that sort of starting to build this new foundation for music that you want to create on your own?

- Yeah, I think for me the Lilith Fair scene was pretty influential.

I was probably like an eighth grader or something when that became something I was aware of.

And it just gave me like the idea that I could do that too.

You know, you see a bunch of other people who kind of look like you doing something and then you start to realize like, "Actually, I could do that."

Because I'd been listening to a lot of men play music and seeing them on TV or whatever.

And that was just a concert, a festival, actually, full of just women up front who were writing their own music and performing.

So that was like super influential.

And I think I had been writing songs from like a little kid.

Like, you know, when I was about 10, I think I wrote my first song.

But that influenced me to like teach myself guitar and just like write songs with guitar.

- Yeah.

- Mm-hmm.

- So you're seeing these, you know, singer-songwriters come out who are women and you're just saying like, "I can do this too," for the first time?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

And, Mario, what about you?

- Well... - How did Weird Al influence you?

- Seeing Weird Al, just like, "I can do this too."

- Yeah.

- No.

- Did you have a comedy like routine that you were doing at the same time?

- No, I didn't get there.

- But you're listening to The Beach Boys, you're listening to other things too besides that?

- Yeah, definitely, you know, guitar-driven stuff, very melodic.

I think getting into, I don't know...

I think there was something instilled of like the hooks of, you know, popular songwriting that at the time I didn't really understand.

But just kind of that conditioning of stuff that's really memorable and kind of sticks with you, and you find yourself kind of singing it throughout the day.

I think that's a thing that really happened where at a certain point I was just kind of always cycling some kind of music without trying to.

And also probably had something to do with playing "Mario Kart" with like the boombox.

I would mute "Mario Kart" and then put on my own music.

And then, you know, rip, you know, that way, so.

- I just have this image of you cranking a Weird Al tune and going down Rainbow Road.

[Steph and James laugh] - It happens, you know?

- [James] Yeah.

- He's got a song, "Albuquerque."

It's like 12 minutes long or something.

- Perfect.

- It's an epic, you know?

- Yeah.

But so you're kind of just, you were kind of also saying that you were starting to maybe identify sort of like choruses and just like more of like the songs themselves were starting to stick with you.

I mean, what were you starting to pick up on?

Like is it just like the hooks, was it like the melody?

Was it the way that it was composed?

- Yeah, all those things.

I mean, the rhythm...

I mean, not to...

I was worried if I mentioned Weird Al we would just, everything would just lead to Weird Al, but obviously all roads lead to Weird Al.

- Gosh.

- I mean, a great takeaway from something that he has done over his career is the changing the lyrics but keeping the rhythm and the rhyme scheme going.

I mean, that's kind of heady stuff that you don't really pick up at the time.

But later on if you really know the original and then you're listening to the parody, it feels so good and everything sounds right because you're still getting all the same mechanics kind of.

- [James] Right.

- Being delivered in a way to where it's not incongruous or anything.

You're still receiving the identity in a lot of ways.

It's just coming through this like Weird Al's special voice, you know, that he's got.

- But what you're saying sort of is that you can, like songs can be sort of manipulated?

- [Mario] Yeah.

- And you're seeing that, "Maybe I could do that a little bit too if I wanted to."

Right?

- Yeah, yeah.

- There are things you could pick and choose maybe.

- Yeah.

It's almost like you're seeing a very, almost a peek behind in the curtain in a way, of like, "Oh, here's all these moving parts, "and you can change things about them."

That's sort of like, you know, Layer 1 of deconstructing music, I guess, in a way, is, what does it look like after Weird Al has put it through the blender?

A very special form of analysis maybe.

- Yeah.

Kind of segueing a little bit from that, but going to just sort of where we're from and what we're listening to and maybe the music that you all are creating, do you think that music can provide a sense of place?

- Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Steph and James laugh] We agree.

- Yeah, I mean, it's... - I think we were talking about just recently just how like we have so many music memories that happen in certain places, whether it was like a certain concert that we were at in the experience of a show or just like hearing something for the first time and being in a place and just having that memory of like the place that you're hearing something and just the connection.

It's sort of like smell memory too.

Like anytime you smell popcorn you think of being at a theater maybe, you know?

- [James] Right.

- It's like... - Yeah, the sensory experience is a really powerful... Don't wanna just say experience, experience, but, yeah, it really implants when you have this one moment, this one place.

And sound is a really powerful thing, that it just kind of grabs you in that moment and then you can go back to it.

- Yeah, and sometimes like when we're driving to shows and we're on the road, like I just feel like certain music is like required for the soundtrack that we're like experiencing, like, you know, that I want...

So if we're like up in like the mountains of North Carolina, I just kind of wanna put on Doc Watson or something, you know?

It's like sometimes you just want the music of the place to be with you in the space, and that feels really nice.

- Yeah, it's like comforting.

- [Steph] Yeah.

- Yeah.

- [Steph] It feels more connected.

- Mm-hmm.

- Because the radio is just gonna be playing a lot of stuff that you'd hear anywhere a lot of the time.

Unless you're lucky to find like a really cool station that's curated for that area.

- [James] Right.

- Yeah.

- I'm gonna take a step back for just a second and kind of understand.

So where did you two meet?

Can we kind of talk about that for a bit?

- Well, we met in like Chapel Hill-Carrboro around 2012.

- [James] Yeah.

- One of our best friends was playing in my band at the time, Steph Stewart and the Boyfriends.

- [James] Yeah.

- And he was the fiddle player.

His name's Omar Ruiz Lopez.

And they were actually friends from Florida.

- Cool.

- So they went to music school together, and I think Omar just knew that Mario needed to get out of Florida because he had just done that and discovered how rich the Triangle's music scene was in the ways that they wanted to experience.

You know, like Florida, I think where you guys were, has a music scene, but it sounds like it's really different than what we have here.

And what we have here is more of what you guys were trying to find, I think.

- Yeah, it was a particular kind of bar scene, and the stuff that was available to do was mostly, you know, hang out and do beachy covers kind of thing.

It was kind of a particular scene.

- Yeah.

- At the time.

- Had you taken a trip here?

Or like how did you get to the Triangle?

- So Omar actually visited.

- And Omar is one of your good buddies from back then?

- Yeah, so Omar and I, we met in college, music school.

- [James] Yeah.

- And, you know, we were buds for a couple years while he was down there.

And then he just came up to the Chapel Hill area with a friend who was checking out UNC, and Omar took one step into Carrboro, and it was just like, "Oh, I gotta come here."

And then... - [James] And so he told you about it?

- Yeah, so he moved up pretty quickly after that.

And then he would just bug me once a month at least that I had to come up, at least visit, you know, check it out.

And once I graduated, I did.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And then we were playing together within a week or two of my moving up.

- So Omar kind of like roped him in to joining the band.

We weren't even really friends at the time.

We didn't really know each other.

But he just started playing the music that we had.

And eventually we started writing new music together too.

So our whole relationship really began through playing music together.

- What was that like to like speak that language with each other first?

- I think it made for a fast connection for sure.

- [James] Yeah.

- For me anyway.

- Yeah.

- Fast connection how?

Was it sort of like a, it's something where your brain just flipped in a different way or more so than you would just have meeting with each other and having a cup of coffee or something?

- It's like you have something that's really important to you that you wanna spend as much time doing, and this other person feels the same way.

And you have the same interests.

You know, we both wanted to be making this music together, so it felt like really easy to be around each other.

Didn't have to try.

And it was, yeah, really, it's been really fun to collaborate musically ever since, you know?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So who asked who would be in a band first?

- I really don't know how it happened.

I feel like Omar was just like, "We need Mario to play guitar with us."

And I was like, "Do we?"

I mean, I do play guitar.

But I don't really play the same way he does.

[Steph laughs] As I learned.

And we did need you.

- All the lead instruments, you know?

- Yeah.

Do you have another memory about that time?

Because I don't... - So was Omar really the big matchmaker here?

- [Steph] Yeah.

- He's the one that put you two together, and then you were like, "This is it"?

- I don't think we would be here today if it weren't for him.

- Mm-hmm.

- You know, not together anyways, like, yeah.

- Can you kind of talk to us a little bit more about how that relationship sort of developed?

You were playing together, and it was feeling really comfortable, right?

And it felt really like you were connected in a different way.

How did that sort of evolve?

- Um... - Were you all just having fun together and just like kept doing that and just like, "I wanna do this for as long as I can"?

- Yeah, I mean, we had some time where we were this four-piece string band playing around a microphone.

And at a certain point, the other two guys, there were just various things that, logistics happened.

People were moving away or having a kid, and the gigs weren't able to, you know, folks weren't able to make the gigs.

We were still able to.

- Mm.

- And at a certain point it was just kind of a practical like, "Hey, the two of us could go do this duo gig.

"Let's see how we can figure out doing that."

And by this point, we had also been working on writing material together.

So really it was kind of an organic process of, we started working together a bit more closely in that regard.

And... - Well, you brought in the electric guitar, which I think was a huge shift in the sound.

Because we had been completely acoustic in the old band.

So that really shifted the songwriting a lot too.

I think we were really going for more of a twang sound.

And yeah.

- So y'all went from like folk bluegrass to sort of a different level of just like electric and more country?

- [Steph] Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, were listening to a lot of classic country at the time and just really diving deep into it.

- Yeah.

What was that jump like?

I mean, what were you thinking in that time?

Was there something you were like, "Wow, this feels really good"?

- Yeah, it was super exciting.

It felt like, you know, I feel like every time I write a song, I'm like, "Whew, I didn't know if I'd ever do that again.

"That was really great."

[Steph laughs] And I think it was sort of like, "Wow, I didn't know "that we had a shift like that in us."

And it was really exciting.

And it didn't feel, in hindsight, I don't think it was too much of a leap from what we had been doing.

But it felt like that at the time.

It felt like we were really changing gears because we really did kind of abandon the Boyfriends project and have a new band name and just, yeah.

Kind of started from scratch in a way.

- So what was that next step, that clean slate like?

Once you kind of took a step away from, you know, Steph and the Boyfriends?

Yeah, I mean, what was that like?

You're like, "Okay, we're a new thing together."

What was that like for you both?

- Definitely exciting.

I mean, a big part of it was being a little bit more focused on how do we play with genre, I think, was a little bit.

Because with the Boyfriends, it was more of a acoustic string band that didn't necessarily have... We didn't start that project with... Well, Steph started it.

This was the first project where we were both kind of coming in on the ground floor and sort of identifying, "What do we wanna do with this thing?"

And having kind of some element of country music being kind of the backbone, and how do we play with that, you know?

- And it felt really, I think for me it felt pretty unofficial at the same time.

Like we wanted to do Blue Cactus, but we didn't really set out to make it like a career path initially.

It was more like we were really into writing, like you said, like sort of very country songs, doing kinds of like, you know, like the key change, the like time signature changes like that are really... Country music, especially classic country, can be pretty complicated.

It's not as simple as like everyone might think initially.

And I think the vocalists do things that are really difficult and challenging.

And I don't know, like we just wanted to like explore that together and write songs usually from like title first.

So we would each have our own books, little notebooks, of all these titles we were coming up with.

And then we'd share those with each other and say like, "Oh, I think "this could be a really good title."

And then it was like, that was the jumping-off point for writing a new song.

So that was a really different approach, I think, for both of us and super fun.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And now this time, also, so you are are together, you guys are romantic partners, is that right?

- No, we actually were kind of just friends for, I mean, we were friends for at least four years.

- Yeah.

- It was kind of funny, I guess now in hindsight, but I was married at the time.

- Okay.

- I had a different partner, and he was in a long-term relationship.

So we were with different people when we first met and never really, I don't know, he wasn't really someone I was romantically interested in for years.

- [Mario] We had stuff going on.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

So I think, yeah, like evolving into Blue Cactus and that whole thing, like that's really kind of what shifted the way I saw him.

Like I was starting to realize like, "Wow, I just really feel like "I always wanna be with this person.

"Like what is going on, you know?"

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And so you felt like that music first like that, it just felt like you all were playing together and you were finding something new there.

- [Steph] Yeah.

- Like as you were kind of starting to see Blue Cactus evolve, personally, what were you going through at that time?

I mean, you said that you were with different partners, you had different things going on.

But you, together, you all felt this sense of like partnership, right?

Like what is that like to separate those two, I guess, like from the romantic involvement to like we're in a band together and we play this music together and it just feels so good?

- Mm-hmm.

- Yeah, I mean, in that initial phase where kind of everything was flying around and pretty intense, it's hard to separate in some ways.

But I don't know.

I don't know that it necessarily... - Yeah, I think now that, I mean, we've been around each other for so long, we live together and do the band, I think we are more intentional about separating those things.

And I think we could always be better at it.

'Cause it is hard.

I mean, especially at this level in our careers, we kind of do everything, you know?

And so it's a lot of work, and it just feels like there are always conversations that we need to be having about making decisions, you know, about everything.

Like from booking shows to, yeah, making a lot of content for social media.

You know, it's just always conversations and work to do.

Recording music.

So anyway.

But I do think like, one thing we do, actively do is try to have alone time or time away from each other with different friends that we're not both at.

Because we spend so much time together, like through working together in Blue Cactus and living together, being partners.

Like it's really important I think for us to have like solo time so that we can come... A, have time to be creative.

That's when we both write.

Like we do that alone.

So that gives us a chance to like explore our creativity and like, you know, get in touch with ourselves in that way.

But also, yeah, just so we don't get tired of each other and we have something to share.

Like, "Oh, what did you do today?"

You know, if we're hanging out all the time, the answer is obvious.

But like, if we're doing different things, it's pretty fun to hear what we've been up to.

- Yeah.

- After coming back.

- Can you speak to the name Blue Cactus?

Where did that come from?

- You know, we get asked this a lot, and I just wish, I feel really guilty when I answer this question because I feel like the answer is really not that interesting.

And I think it like lets people down every time.

But I'll tell you the truth.

- Yeah.

- It came from, you know, the beginning of getting into like country music a lot together.

Which I feel like I reclaimed country music.

It was sort of a thing I cast aside when I got to be a teenager.

I was like really distancing myself from it.

So this was really cool for me to be like, "I like country," and, you know, just rediscovering that part of myself that I'd kind of thrown away.

But we were really getting into like Western wear too.

We were just embracing everything about the genre, you know?

And so the first Western wear shirt that he bought had cactuses like embroidered all over it.

And I just noticed, I happened to notice, we were playing one of our first gigs, and we didn't have a band name yet.

And we were at Tir na nOg, which I don't even think is, you know, around anymore.

But it was kind of dark in there.

And I just happened to notice, "I think the cactuses on your shirt are blue."

I was like, "Is that a blue cactus?"

And he was like, "Yeah."

And then, I don't know, it just immediately clicked.

'Cause I was sensitive to trying to think of a band name.

We were both in that head space.

And I was like, "Well, that would actually be "a really good band name."

And like we both agreed.

Which is not very common, really, to be honest.

So I think that was a good sign.

Like it felt like it sounded like the music we were making together.

- Yeah.

I mean, it came off of a Western wear shirt, so I feel like it definitely, it's sort of symbolic of that, right?

- [Steph] Mm-hmm.

- Wow.

Did you say that out loud and go, "You know, band name, called it?"

[James laughs] - Pretty much.

- [All] Yeah.

- Steph likes to say we don't agree all the time, but I disagree with that.

- Yeah.

[Steph and Mario laugh] - Well, talk to us a little bit more about that.

- Oh, that was all I had.

- I'll say, one of the things that works really well for us is I'm a little bit of like a initiator.

That's kind of my personality.

And he is really good at going with the flow.

And so I think we work really well together in that capacity.

Like... - Sometimes picking up loose ends.

- Yeah, picking up the loose ends.

There are usually a lot of those to pick up in our process.

But, yeah, I think we kind of are a really nice balance for our strengths.

- Yeah.

What do you mean?

So like when you say like, picking up the loose ends, like of what?

Like of a half of a song that you've wrote, or?

- Yeah, sometimes it's that.

Yeah, sometimes Steph will have a song maybe 80... - Sometimes I leave like a boiling pot of water on the stove.

- Yeah, sometimes you just gotta turn off the burner.

Sometimes you just finish like the last 10, 20% of a song kind of thing.

Kind of push it over the edge.

- I start dinner a lot of the time, and he comes in, takes over, seasons it, makes it taste really good, you know?

- Yeah.

Otherwise I'll just be up on my computer, you know, doing something until eight o'clock.

- This might be a real stretch here, but is the way that he'll come in and finish dinner sort of the way maybe a song will happen where he just comes in and just sprinkles a little extra spice on it, and all of a sudden you're like, "Whoa"?

- Yeah, I mean, I think when it's a song that I've kind of started and he collaborates on it, that's definitely what he does.

Just feel really lucky to have him as my collaborator because he hears things that I don't hear.

And, yeah, in terms of song structure, even like just doing little things.

There's a song that I just wrote, that we just wrote.

It felt really done to me and I really liked it.

And then he sort of said, "Well, I feel like we need to break it up a little bit.

"What if we changed time signatures "in these moments of the song "but keep everything else the same?"

And I was like, "I don't know."

But then I tried it.

'Cause that's one thing we're very respectful about, always trying, I think, each other's ideas, you know?

And it was totally the thing to do, you know?

So it was something I would've never thought of.

- Yeah.

- I was just fine with it as it was, but then it just sort of got put in a whole new level really.

It was like, it just got a lot stronger because of that suggestion he made.

And he does that all the time.

- How do you go about that approach when you're like, "Maybe we should try this"?

- I have to be gentle sometimes.

- Yeah, sometimes he's not.

I'm very sensitive.

- Yeah.

[Steph and James laugh] Yeah, sometimes I come in guns a blazin' with an idea I know that's gonna work so well, you know?

And I gotta really like come in real soft and slow and just be like, "Hey, maybe just this little teeny thing.

"It'll be easy."

- [Steph] Yeah.

- 'Cause, yeah, sometimes I know when Steph's real excited about a song, it feels like it's set in stone.

But nothing has to be set in stone forever.

Can always change things.

Bob Dylan constantly, constantly, you know, redoing old songs and changing 'em up.

- And I think because of the dynamic of him like often going with my flow, my initiation process, like it really kind of surprises me when he turns that around.

And I know it's important.

You know, 'cause I don't feel like it's really your natural role.

So when you do it, I know like I need to pay attention.

- Wow.

- Yeah.

Does that make sense?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So you're sort of saying like when Mario speaks up and says something and has like an idea, you really perk up?

- Yeah, because he only does it when it's really important.

And, you know, I think he saves it for the right moments.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And there's ways where he's kind of just letting you do your thing, right?

And then approaching it when you kind of feel like you need to approach it.

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

- So I just want to rephrase that question a little bit more.

So your process for writing music.

What is that like?

So do you start off with the song first?

You said you usually come up with a title first.

Can you kind of talk to us about that?

- Yeah, the title first idea was something we had been doing in the very beginning.

And haven't really done that recently.

But what's happened recently is, well, we both independently write, and I've just been a little more prolific in that songwriting department lately.

So I think if I'm starting a song, I'll be alone.

And I make a lot of voice memos too when I go on my morning walks or whatever and I'm alone.

I'll get little melodies in my head or little lines that I'll record.

And so sometimes I'm visiting those ideas that just kind of had already come into my mind that I captured, or I'm feeling something that I need to like process with the guitar.

And so I'll start a song.

And like, I'm usually, I'm so excited about whenever I get something started that I share it with him pretty early on in the process.

But, yeah, there'll come a time when I'm like, if I'm struggling to get like some words down or to figure out, like I can identify a problem sometimes, like, "This needs a bridge," or whatever.

Or maybe I need a chorus or another verse.

So I will come to Mario and say like, "Hey, this is what I got so far.

"Like do you wanna hang out with this song for a little bit "and help develop it a little bit more?"

- Mario, do you have a bunch of voice memos just on your phone from Steph?

That are just, you know... - Not from Steph, actually.

We keep our voice memos separate usually, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

I have a collection here, and then Steph will usually...

I'll be hearing it in real time straight from the source here.

And then, yeah, I might stare at a piece of paper for a while, stare at, you know, a paper that already has a bunch of scribbles and stuff all over it.

But, yeah, sometimes it's really just, I don't know.

There have been a couple songs where we've sat down with nothing but a title and kind of nailed it.

I think there are two songs that we've done where we both sat down and like wrote it out all in a pretty short amount of time.

More in like the classic country kind of vein of like starting from a title and you sort of have your mission statement at that point.

You know where you're going and there's a lot of easy...

There's a roadmap you can kind of lead yourself through to like arrive at the point of the song since you know what the title is.

And we kind of got pretty good at doing that.

- Yeah, I think "Believer" is gonna be on our new album.

And that's a pretty cool example of a song that like, I was into and I'd written, I think, all the verses, and I had the melody for the chorus, but I just couldn't figure out what the words were supposed to be.

And like then Mario came into the process, and he just like, he was so fast.

I don't know how he did it, but like, yeah, by a few hours, like we had the chorus, you know?

And the song was done.

- Wow.

- [Steph] Yeah.

- And so it's just having that title, having that sort of like writing prompt that kind of sends you down this, you know, creative process?

- Mm-hmm.

- Mm-hmm.

- Yeah, it helps to know where you're going in some way.

Like it's really easy to be swimming out in the ether constantly, which is kind of the struggle of writing in a lot of ways is that you really need to give yourself some sort of boundary sometimes and figure out where you're going really quick before you're just sort of flailing around forever.

- Yeah, and do you feel like that title treatment, is that sort of, do you feel like that's standard for some people?

Or do you feel like that's kind of unique to you all?

- Definitely a lot of people do it.

It's like an old country thing.

- Yeah.

- Where a lot of those kind of hokey classic country things you've heard, a lot of that stuff stems from that practice.

- Right.

- Yeah.

Maybe that's a little bit of a Weird Al influence.

I don't know, just in terms of it's a chance to be kind of clever and witty.

You know, that's kind of the thing we were going for.

Like, "So Right You Got Left," that was one of the songs we wrote as a title first and that we actually collaborated with together 100% through the process in the same room.

So yeah.

They're kind of funny when we do the title first.

They're not serious songs usually.

- It's definitely easier, I feel like, to lean into a punchline kind of thing.

Set up and punchline.

- So as you're writing these songs, some of them you said can be fun or funny or hokey.

- [Steph] Yeah.

- But some of them aren't.

I'm wondering...

I wanna say a lot of them aren't.

Do you feel like songwriting is a form of therapy in a way?

- Yeah, absolutely.

I kind of... You know, if I'm feeling like an intense emotion, like we had a show that we were really looking forward to, and then I got COVID and we couldn't play it, you know?

And just so disappointed because, you know, it had been on our calendar for like half a year and then we couldn't go.

And so, anyway, I think I was just alone right after that and feeling pretty bummed out.

And all I wanted to do was like grab my guitar, you know?

And that helped me through those emotions and then ended up like coming out with the song, you know?

And then the playing of the song afterwards is really healing for me.

It just kind of helps you like work through that over and over again, you know?

And it's kind of like a little reminder that you are dealing with the situation and you've kind of processed it, or you're processing it, and you can continue to remind yourself along the way.

- Do you feel like as you're like singing it and playing it you're like kind of going back to that like memory or something in a way?

- Yeah, totally.

And sometimes they change what they mean, which is really cool, you know?

- Yeah, like in what ways?

- Well, like the recent thing for me was a song that's gonna be on our new record called "This Kind of Rain."

And it came from a personal place of me like dealing with some depression.

I mean, going through the pandemic and not being able to do like music for people, you know, like not being able to play out.

And so that has kind of changed meaning for me with everything going on in Western North Carolina.

And, you know, that's just another really, like even more challenging situation for so many more people who have lost everything.

But I know those people are really strong and they're gonna prevail, you know?

And so the message of this song, you know, I think it can be applied to so many different situations and stories that happen in people's lives, and it changes its meaning for me.

- That's awesome.

So I'd like to touch on, one of the questions we like to ask with everybody we have on the show is, you know, how you're shaped by sound.

Can you maybe speak to that idea to us for a little bit?

And, again, with shaped by sound, some of the things that we consider, at least I like to consider, is how music can influence who we are as people, how music or sound just generally can influence us as communities.

How do you believe sound shapes you all?

- Yeah, I mean, I think like a lot of us, it's easy to be overwhelmed by a lot of things going on in the world, particularly right now.

And, I mean, and I think a lot of us turn to something like music and art to sometimes be kind of a shelter to turn to and kind of be reminded of something greater than the constant anxiety and sort of feedback loop you can get into of thinking about a lot of negative things going on.

- Yeah, or it can be a blanket to just feel that deeper too.

Like I think the world is a pretty dark place in a lot of ways, especially right now.

And sometimes you just wanna like acknowledge that and listen to music that can explore that well.

And like I think it gives you permission to like feel it and to let your emotions be present and to cry as well as like helping you like lift out of those feelings when you need to do that too.

- Yeah.

So you feel like there's a part of you that can escape or also a part of you that can dive headfirst?

- Yeah, yeah.

I think like I have two songs that if I had to listen to them for the rest of my life, it would probably be "Lovely Day" by Bill Withers and "Light of a Clear Blue Morning" from Dolly Parton.

And those two songs really helped me through some really hard times while giving me permission to feel that things might be bad in that moment for me or for other people that I care about.

But like it gives me a lot of hope and helps me just kind of move through it.

- [James] Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

- As creators, how does that make you feel that you get to kind of make that music that can do that for somebody else?

- I think that's the whole reason that we do it.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I wanna also kind of go into, what is it about playing music and just being in this band that brings you joy?

- Hmm.

I love our band so much, and we've been so fortunate to play with many different people over the years who we all love very deeply.

It means a lot that other people care about the music that we are creating and that they wanna put the time and energy into learning these songs and bringing their ideas to the process as well.

So I think that's probably one of my favorite parts of it.

- Yeah, being able to feel the energy kind of multiply.

'Cause we're used to of course starting everything with the two of us and kind of feeling the whole thing kind of spread out further you know, with the whole stage and everything.

Well, today with clouds and a whole bunch of other things going on, yeah.

- These people really care.

They're just good friends.

I mean, it's not an easy career path, I will say that.

I mean, like, I don't know if we'll ever like quote unquote make it.

But when it feels really hard, those are the people we turn to to talk about that struggle.

And they understand it.

And I think like that's kind of the real power too of the community of artists.

Like we can go to some festival down in like Texas or something, and this happens all the time, you know, you become friends with people really fast because you have a similar lived experience that's kind of weird.

And it's not like a lot of other people's experiences, you know, with our jobs.

And then you'll see each other a year later at another festival in Ohio, and it's like a family reunion, and it's like we will have each other stay at each other's houses on the drop of a hat.

'Cause it's like we understand what that's like and that, you know, that that saving money on a hotel room that night is the difference between like a full tank of gas and meals for the next couple of days versus, you know...

So yeah.

It just feels like a really special and strange community that is like another big reason why I think we have wanted to continue doing this and, you know, being a part of that.

- Yeah, so you feel like there's this sense of community and working together to achieve this goal versus anything else.

'Cause it's a hard life on the road.

- Yeah, yeah, and we are all there to make it easier for each other.

- Yeah.

I want to talk to you a little bit about that.

Like when you're on the road and you're Blue Cactus, is there a time when it's hard to delineate when you all are Blue Cactus and when, you know, you're Steph and Mario?

- I think so because of the pressure that we feel to share Blue Cactus with like social media.

And so it's like, you know, I...

But we're really working on just sharing what we're really like too there.

And people are fine with that, it turns out.

Which is great, thankfully.

Because, yeah, sometimes I just wanna wear like sweatpants.

You know, and I'll be in the van, and we have an eight-hour drive, and I'm not gonna like look like this.

- Yeah.

[Steph laughs] - And, you know, we wanna be able to show people that side of ourselves too.

- So I think that's showing them the Steph and Mario side honestly.

Like I think it's just giving ourselves permission to connect with people in both identities.

[Steph laughs] - Yeah, I mean, we're always Steph and Mario for sure.

I think the Blue Cactus thing, it only feels like Blue Cactus when we're on stage.

Otherwise, I mean, it's always, "Here we are."

[Steph and Mario laugh] I'm not big on the social media thing.

- Yeah.

Maybe talking more towards like Blue Cactus's more professional side of who you are.

And there's pressure to do that often, and you're finding ways to not do that?

- I do it.

[Steph and James laugh] - I'm finding ways.

- Yeah.

- But, yeah, I think we're both trying to just get more organized with it but also like not let it consume our lives.

It's a constant challenge, but yeah.

- Yeah.

I wanna talk a little bit about sort of the genre, I guess.

And you've been called cosmic country, cosmic americana.

Do you think that's an appropriate title for the music that you're making?

- I think like I'm not really someone who knows how to write about music anyways.

Like I like reading other people's work who do that job.

And the whole like idea of genres is really, I mean, it's just something that I don't know how to classify music in genres real well.

And I think the whole genre world was sort of created in a really weird, kind of not great way in the beginning just to like separate people racially into marketing music.

So I think it all goes back to like capitalism really.

- Yeah.

- The whole genre thing.

But I'm grateful for people who appreciate music and write about it and know what to call our music.

And then I'm glad that they know to call it that.

And I think the people who, the other artists who kind of, you know, when you open those genre doors and they're hanging out in that room, like I feel like we're in good company.

But, yeah, it's tough.

I don't really know what to call us, so.

- Yeah.

- It does seem like a good fit, I guess.

- I guess, and one of the reasons I kind of asked you that question is 'cause it feels like, the cosmic side of it is interesting to me.

The idea that there's like a spaciness, that there's this like ethereal feel to it.

Is that something that you're thinking about when you're making this music?

- Yeah, I mean, because things start from a songwriting... Kind of, it's in the core of, it's kind of a songwriter driven, that we're not starting from, we haven't started a song with beats or anything necessarily.

- But that would be really fun.

And we should do that.

- We could.

But, yeah, there's kind of a certain starting point that seems to carry over through the music and builds out to a band with, you know, electric instruments, synthesizers and different things where it feels like, yeah, we're very much in that wanting a big sound.

- I think his electric guitar does a lot in the way of making the music more cosmic too.

I mean, he has a pretty massive pedal board.

That is something he's always working on.

I mean, yeah, he's always constantly reconfiguring the pedals on there and reprogramming them and exploring sounds.

- I would say it's ergonomic for its size.

- Well, yeah.

Everyone who deals with pedal boards is always like, "Whoa," you know?

- Right.

- Mine is like this big.

So it seems pretty big.

It's all relative, I suppose.

- Do you feel like there's some sort of world building that you're doing within the music that you're making, like that composition of it?

I guess that's sort of what I was getting to with cosmic, the idea of it.

- Definitely.

World building.

[Steph and Mario laugh] - That seems really big.

- Yeah.

Well, I guess the first time that I listened to you all, you know, years ago, I was like just sucked into it because I felt like I could tune in and then just kind of float along with you all in a whole different way and a different world.

And it felt like there was a lot of room to move there.

And that's why I ask if you feel like there's some sort of world building there because it feels like you're kind of giving us a place to start with and then we're jumping off and going to something a lot larger than that.

- That's cool to hear.

I think the only role we have is to really not like let ourselves get trapped into like feeling like we have to write a certain kind of music for the project.

We really try to give ourselves permission to not do that and to let our influences come into the production side for sure, you know?

And that's why we like to work with the people we've worked with.

Because they all have different backgrounds.

We've worked with a lot of folks who have had a pretty strong jazz background.

Mario's like classically guitar trained.

So, yeah, I think that just makes the music more interesting and less predictable.

I think it's really hard these days to feel surprised because we have the internet and our phones, and it's easy to just pull something up and kind of know what you're gonna get into before you get there.

And I like music and experiences that surprise me these days more and more.

So I think that's something that we're always striving for with the music we create is to like give somebody a familiar place that isn't somewhere they've been though, you know?

- Yeah.

So I want to talk a little bit about sort of the aesthetic of the show.

Steph, when we were talking to you, talking to you both actually, about sort of the themes that were going on, you said that you were a big cloud nerd.

[Steph laughs] What is it about the clouds for you?

- You know, I think by nerd, I don't mean I'm an expert by any means, but I just really appreciate them.

And I think like a lot of times we have been taught or something that like cloudy days are not pretty or something.

And I find like blue skies are kind of boring, and I think the sky just is more interesting when there are clouds, and they're constantly changing shapes and you can see different things when they do that, you know?

Yeah.

So I just, yeah, I think a lot of people think of clouds as like negative, but actually they bring a lot of beauty.

And you can't really have a rainbow without the clouds.

[Steph laughs] - And you mentioned, you know, silver linings in your music.

And you have it sewn on to your costume.

- Yeah.

- As well.

What is it that draws you to that?

- Because, like we were mentioning earlier how the world does feel very heavy and dark.

And particularly even like, you know, with Hurricane Helene, like that really ruined a lot of people's homes and lives.

But like there's always hope in those situations.

And I think what I'm seeing out of that is like the good in people, and it's really affirming to see strangers helping each other and being a part of that.

You know, like and there are many other situations where that happens, you know?

It's just reminders that people, there are really good people in this world who care.

'Cause without that, I think I just get paralyzed, and I feel like, "This is so heavy, I can't move."

So I think we need each other, and that's really all we have, you know, to get through those moments.

- So it's kind of a constant reminder for you.

- Yeah, yeah.

- [James] There are things on the opposite side of tragedy.

- Mm-hmm.

- Can you talk to us a little bit more about the costumes that you all have?

- Yeah, my suit was a suit that I bought, and then I sent the suit to an artist in Nashville.

Her kind of artist name is Jukebox Mama.

And she embroiders Western wear.

And is really, really good at it.

And I said I had a concept for the suit, and I'd like it to be a rain suit, like rain-themed.

And that's kind of a classic country tradition where artists will have like their custom suits that are themed to like anything, you know?

It could be like where they're from or a certain song.

So anyway, I just, I've wanted a suit like that ever since we started the project, and it felt like I finally had the concept.

And she made a beautiful suit, and I couldn't have been more happy with the way it turned out.

- [James] Yeah.

- And I wanted to get shirts for the band, but it is kind of an expensive thing, you know?

And I was like, "I just need to learn "how to do some version of that for us."

And this is a good time.

'Cause, yeah, I've had that goal for a while.

- Yeah.

- So, you know, thanks to YouTube, I learned how to chain stitch by hand.

And, you know, we already had, at least we had the concept, and I think that's the hardest part, really.

So I learned that skill.

And it was really fun.

I mean, I just loved...

It got me off my screen, and I was just doing this kind of, not really mindless, but certainly like zen, you know, activity of just chain stitching.

And then his mom actually got me a bedazzler for Christmas a couple years ago.

And I knew I was gonna use it, I just didn't know like how to get started, and this was the perfect excuse.

So I finally got that thing out, and, yeah, again, just a little YouTube video, and I was ready to go.

And, yeah, it's a new little passion project that I've got going on that I really love, and I don't wanna turn it into something to make money.

I just want it to be like my little, yeah, my little creative, fun thing.

- Yeah.

Something that you can do and just, yeah.

That sounds awesome.

- Yeah.

- It sounds like you're kind of living your '90's dream too.

- I think I am, yeah.

I really am.

- That's awesome.

So I think I'd like to go through the songs with you all for today.

And if you can, I'd like to know a little bit more about sort of the reason why you chose them and kind of give us some more context to the song.

And I'd like to start with "Stranger Again."

- Mm-hmm.

So "Stranger Again" is the title track on the last record that we've released back in 2021.

And I think we chose that song for that reason also.

But it sort of came out of, you know, the two of us having been in a long relationship at the time and thinking about how easy it is, kind of, when you're just starting a relationship.

You don't have to try as hard in some ways because everything's a mystery about the other person.

So it's easy to have conversations and stuff.

But then also like, after knowing each other for a long time, realizing like there's all these other levels of each other that you see later in a relationship.

And people change, you know?

We're not the same people that we were when we first started making music together or got in a relationship.

So you do kind of become strangers to each other through the changing, and you have to continue to know each other, you know?

- So it seems like sort of like a loop.

- [Steph] Mm-hmm, I think so.

- Yeah.

So "Rebel."

Yeah, sorry about that.

- Well, Mario wrote "Rebel."

- Yeah, "Rebel" was loosely inspired by my time growing up in South Florida and kind of looking back on some wild times, really just a period of a couple years where kind of in that college age where it wasn't clear if I was actually gonna ever get out of there.

And kind of hitting that point where it's like, "All right, if I don't get out of here, this is it."

I mean, you could boil it down to being out in the middle of the Everglades one night and being like, "Okay, this is the moment "where I'm either this person or I get outta here."

- Yeah.

- So yeah.

- What's it mean for you now to like play that song?

It seems you're on a different side of your life maybe.

- I mean, it's just a blast to play with the band, really.

It's just a very fun thing to play these days.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Mm-hmm.

- And "Believer," so "Believer" is the title track of the new album.

- [Steph] Yeah.

- Can you kind of speak to "Believer" a bit?

- Sure, yeah.

So "Believer" is the title track of our new record that'll be out in 2025.

And it was just an attempt, I think it was almost an...

It wasn't really attempt even, it was sort of like this need to process all of the like darkness and weight that we had been feeling, that we feel.

Like how can someone have billions of dollars and just wanna like fly to space and like do whatever, you know, and not help other people?

Right, like that just seems inconceivable.

And so I think we were just, yeah, really processing that strange reality that we're living in right now.

But also, yeah, trying to find hope within it too.

Like trying to believe that there are better things and better people out there.

- And "Kings."

- So "Kings" is a song that's gonna be on the new record too.

That was inspired by growing up with my little brother.

When we were kids, we actually lived in like this little trailer park out in the country.

It was like really near a patch of woods.

And we'd spend all day playing out in the woods together, like building forts and just being kids.

You know, and as we grew up and got older, like he sort of got involved in some trouble later, like as a teenager, because, you know, it's tough sometimes in a small town if you don't have an outlet to express yourself.

And, unfortunately, like the opioid epidemic is pretty bad in places like that.

And so, yeah, he was kind of heading down that path for a bit.

And thankfully his life turned around.

He got involved in the Air Force, which was a huge shift for him, and it gave him this different sense of discipline.

But that song was really just about us growing up together and then him being in the Air Force and on a deployment where he told me later that he thought he was gonna die.

And I just like never think about losing people, you know, that you love.

But I think I certainly thought about it after he told me that he thought he was gonna die.

And like, yeah, just kind of reflected on our time together.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

It seems like that's a, you know, yeah, after going through all of that together and then coming back to that part of your life and his life at the same time, it could be tragic.

- [Steph] Mm-hmm.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, it's like you sort of wish you could go back to being kids.

And when you're kids, you never realize how precious that time is.

And you just can't.

- [James] Yeah.

- But as an adult now, I'd just like give anything to go back to being a little kid with him at the trailer park building forts in the woods.

[Steph laughs] You know?

- And "Worried Man."

- So "Worried Man" is on the last record we put out, and it's probably my favorite song on the record.

It's just a really fun song to play.

We worked with our friend Alex Bingham to produce it, and he brought in kind of this country disco vibe that is really cool and fun.

And it's sort of inspired by my grandfather, who was like the notorious worrier of our family.

Was kind of his job that he took on.

And he just worried about everybody all the time.

You know, like he taught me how to drive from the time I was really little because he worried I would have an accident, you know?

So by the time I was like three years old, I could sit on his lap and steer like his '89 Caprice Classic around the cemetery near their house.

That was our driving grounds.

And he was like, you know, "If we die and have an accident here, "we'll just be buried on the spot."

I mean, and as a little kid, you take everything literally.

So I was terrified.

I was like so scared.

I was like, "I've gotta be a great driver," you know?

But it was also really fun.

It was something we looked forward to.

And so yeah.

You don't really appreciate those kind of personalities in the moment, but it's another thing, when it's gone, I really do miss him worrying for me.

It was just such a way that he showed his love, you know?

- Right, yeah, that connection between you two.

- Yeah.

- Even at an early age.

- Mm-hmm.

- You can tell, that's really cool.

And "Bite My Tongue."

That's on the new record, right?

- Yeah, "Bite My Tongue" is a really fun one.

I mean, I thought it was a bit of a throwaway song.

I just wrote, I just I got that line in my head, "Been biting my tongue so long, "it's a wonder the thing ain't gone."

I was like, "Well, that is dumb, "but I'm just gonna see where it goes."

And thankfully Mario didn't think it was a throwaway song, and the band we recorded with didn't either.

'Cause I think it's one of my favorite ones on the new record, and it's just, you know, inspired by this situation, I guess, of like constantly seeing the same...

I mean, I think like we've gained a lot of rights for people over the years through activism, but we're still fighting for the same things.

And there's always a threat that like people's freedoms to exist are gonna be taken away.

So it's like the fight's never done, and you just gotta keep speaking out.

- [James] Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And then "Resolution."

- Hmm.

So "Resolution" is a song that is on the new record, and that one came pretty quickly.

And I love it when that happens, when a song just writes itself.

Because it was New Year's Eve, and I was about to sit down after breakfast and write my resolution list, which I've done every year.

And like, "I'm gonna be a better person in like 30 ways."

Which never happens.

It's too much to do, like to change yourself overnight.

But.

- Yeah.

- Anyway.

Something else told me, like I just needed to work on being a better listener, and that's like, that's your only resolution.

It was like a voice, is the best way I could describe it.

- [Mario] I was whispering it.

[Steph laughs] - Yeah.

But I heard it, and that song sort of came right after that.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Why is it important to become a better listener, do you think?

Or why was it important for you?

- I think, for me, it makes me a better friend and partner when I'm really hearing what the people around me are communicating and not in the head space, which I'm often in, of trying to think about how to help or fix.

Like, I just go right into like, operation, let's fix it mode sometimes, you know?

And you can't hear people when you're doing that in your head.

So that's my personal reason for needing it.

And it also makes you a much better musician when you really listen to the music you're listening to, actually.

You're really focused on it.

- [James] Yeah.

- You know?

- And sometimes hearing other people come in and offer an opinion or something about that, or?

- Mm-hmm.

- The active listening is very important for that too, right?

- Yeah.

And not just jumping into reactive mode of like, "No, we don't need to change that," or something, but to really like hear people out and try stuff.

Yeah.

- And "Enough."

- "Enough" is a song on "Stranger Again" that I think we've...

I'm gonna let you speak to this a little bit, but I feel like we've just really started to figure that song out over the past little while in a live setting.

It's just really become one of my favorite songs to play on stage.

And it's just kind of about like not giving into imposter syndrome, which I think everybody has, especially if you do something that requires you to wear a lot of hats.

But, yeah, have you felt that too?

I feel like it's been like a really fun one to play live for folks.

- Yeah, it's been fun.

[Steph laughs] - Why is that one fun for you?

- Oh, for Steph?

- For me?

- For either of you, yeah.

- I think it sounds so nice.

I don't know, like the way we sing it together is one of my favorites with the harmonies Mario's doing.

And I like the thing you do on guitar a lot.

- Yeah, it's got a really fun arc to it.

You know, it starts with the two of us and then kind of fill out with the band.

- [Steph] Yeah.

- Get to a big swell at the end with a lot of vocals.

- Yeah, it's definitely like a building song that just like, yeah.

And even as a duo, that comes across in a nice way, I think.

- Yeah.

And we were talking about this song a little bit earlier, but "This Kind of Rain."

- Yeah, so "This Kind of Rain" is a song on our new record.

That song, so I was going through some health issues at the same time that like COVID was really in the beginning phases.

And it just felt like, the world just felt really hard for me in particular.

Like we had quit our day jobs in 2019 to be full-time Blue Cactus.

So that was so hard because all of our big full-time Blue Cactus work just disappeared.

And there we were with these jobs, we were like playing music on our phones for people for a while.

And then we realized, "Well, this isn't gonna last long enough "to keep us like paying our bills."

So we had to get some part-time jobs to do that.

And it just wasn't where I'd seen myself at all, like, you know?

So I don't know, that line, just, "Everyone says when it rains, it pours, "but I ain't seen this kind of rain before," that really wrote itself.

And I just let myself just sit with the song.

And it was another one that kind of wrote itself pretty quickly.

And then Mario was super helpful with that process because I just had some crazy rhythm.

I don't even know what I was playing.

And he really helped fine tune it.

I was like, "I know he'll know how to help me "like make this something that other people can play too."

[Steph laughs] And he did.

- It seems like you've, you know, you all are well beyond where that was in, you know, 2020, 2021.

What does it feel like to play that now and sing that song now?

Do you feel like "This Kind of Rain" might be a little bit different?

Or are you still kind of tapping into that initial emotion when you first wrote it?

- I think for me that it's become a song that other people have now.

And I think it means different things for everyone who's listening.

And that's really what I want.

Like, you know, there's a common, like a universal like experience that I think every human is gonna experience hardship for the most part.

Unless you're like a billionaire, and then I have no idea.

And that's just really like something that no matter all of our differences that people can relate to.

And I want them to be the person in the song, you know, and realizing that they're gonna get through it.

- And "Radio Man."

- "Radio Man" is one of my favorite songs from the "Stranger Again" record.

And Mario and I had the good fortune of doing an artist retreat at Wildacres, which is in Little Switzerland, North Carolina, up in the mountains.

And that song was at the end of the retreat.

I think we were like on our last night there or something.

And really it just was another one that really came to me.

And then we started collaborating on it pretty early in the process, and he like came in with the minor chord.

I was going to like a major chord, and he switched that up, which totally makes the song be really, really cool.

And yeah.

And then helped write like little pieces of the words that were missing, fill in that last verse a lot, so.

- Yeah, it started from a place of thinking about... - Nostalgia.

- Nostalgia that we were feeling.

I think we had a couple different, in trying to sort of poke ourselves into writing different kind of material, we had some starting points of like, what are some things that, you know, starting points to like work on things?

And nostalgia was a big one.

And we had driven by a closed-down video store at some point.

And, yeah, we were just thinking about radio and how radio has played into our civilization and brought people together in a lot of different ways.

And that was kind of the starting point of that song, and, you know, just tried to zoom out as far as we could.

- I feel like there's been times in my life where I was listening to the radio and where I feel like I picked up a sign or something.

Because like there was a song that was played, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, one, what a wild song, "and, two, but like "it fits to what I'm thinking like right now."

Do you think there's some sort of like mysticism like with like radio and radio waves or something like that?

That's kind of an odd question, but.

- You're tapped into like a terrestrial system.

- Yeah.

- In every way.

- Yeah, and I do that too actually.

When we're driving, I like to just tune in and see what radio stations we can pick up.

It helps you feel connected to the place if you can get like the local NPR station or something coming through.

I mean, "Coast to Coast" is so weird and like such a wild thing to listen to.

And it's like, again, that element of surprise that I really treasure.

And even if you have, I don't know, like a streaming service that's just on shuffle, like there's something that's not as exciting about that for me as knowing that there's a living, breathing human being out somewhere like choosing a song for that moment.

- Yeah.

- You know?

- Yeah, not being fed an algorithm.

- Right, yeah.

Like something's not reading me and like telling me the best thing.

Something out there that is beyond me and my control is throwing things out into the universe.

- [Steph] Yeah.

- And I get to connect with that little thread.

Yeah.

I usually do like to end this by just asking you all if there's something else that you would like to say or anything else that we missed on that you'd like to touch on.

- Well, we really enjoyed talking with you, James.

Thank you so much for having us.

I'm just really excited for what you guys are doing with "Shaped by Sound."

It's such a cool concept.

Like North Carolina really has such a rich, deep music community, and I'm excited for folks to really get to see that more through the show y'all are producing.

So, yeah.

- Well, thank you.

And it's because of folks like you that, you know, we get to do this.

So it's a pleasure.

Thank you, all.

- Cool.

- Thank you.

- [James] Thanks for joining us on the "Shaped by Sound" podcast.

If you'd like to hear some of the songs we discussed today, you can find them on our website at pbsnc.org/shapedbysound.

Or find us on the PBS North Carolina YouTube page.

Thanks for listening.