- [Kelly] The House and Senate returned to Raleigh and override vetoes on a half dozen bills.

We analyze the effect on our schools, our parents and our students.

This is "State Lines."

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[bright music] ♪ - Welcome to "State Lines."

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Joining me today, my good friend political analyst, Joe Stewart, to my right, Senator Vickie Sawyer of Iredell and North Mecklenburg counties.

Representative Allen Buansi of Orange County and Carolina Journal's Editor-in-chief down in seat four, Donna King.

Lots going on.

We were talking off camera our love for coconut pie.

But I think a lot of North Carolina would love a budget 'cause it appears not one will be passed before Labor Day.

Donna, we'll kick this off to you.

To set this table, the state's now operating under a previous budget from last year, which technically ended on June 30th.

But North Carolina has a law that prevents a government shutdown should no budget be reached by the end of any fiscal year.

So any new spending, for instance, like pay raises, employees and teachers are looking for changes in education funding, and the biggie, Donna, Medicaid expansion right now on hold.

What's the latest?

- Yes, of course, that Medicaid expansion is tied to passing a budget.

That was part of the deal that Governor Cooper signed earlier.

What we're seeing right now is that state budget negotiations really are kind of stalled at the moment between the Senate and House.

They agreed to a top line number about $29 billion, how that's chopped up and what it looks like, but the policy in it, that's where they're really falling apart.

We're hearing maybe mid-September before we have a budget, but what we're waiting on really will end up being raises for teachers and state employees.

I think what we're seeing, what we're hearing, the differences, the Senate is looking at accelerating tax cuts that were already scheduled, moving them a little faster so that House would like to see triggers go in.

So they're not hamstringing future lawmakers with this.

There's also some key policy things.

NC Innovation is creating some conflict there, which is a C3 investigative or C3 investment fund that would be publicly funded.

But there's also things like casinos, there's lots of policy in this that is creating some conflict and we've got at least probably another month before we see some results.

- Allen, as a Democrat, I know Democrats have to say they don't like this budget, but peel a few layers away, we know that.

What are some things in there you think are promising, potentially promising?

- Well, certainly, given the uncertainty that a lot of school districts face in terms of how much they'll pay staff, it'll be great to get raises to teachers and staff across our state.

It'll also be great to have Medicaid and the funding that's necessary to effectuate Medicaid.

There are thousands of North Carolinians who are waiting or in need and unfortunately this delay is bad for them in that sense.

And so, that'll be good for them to finally have access to the care that they desperately need.

- Are you getting any word, Allen, that maybe DHHS is slowing down that preparation for an October 1st launch or is it all systems go over in the Cooper administration?

- Yeah, there's a lot of concern among DHHS about the delays because there are a lot of vacancies because there are services that they will need to facilitate and offer.

I mean, the more that we delay this process, the more folks go uncared for.

So that is a huge concern by the governor's office and by DHHS.

- And Vickie, we know you're gonna love the budget, but let's peel some layers back and look deeper.

Why can't you just reach a deal and get onto redistricting?

- I agree.

I was talking to one of our buddies that when we did probably the biggest bill that we have ever done in the state of North Carolina, the abortion bill, when it was led by us women, when got it done and finished and it's all over.

Now we have a bunch of men at the table and I'm like, "Come on, guys, let's get this done.

If we can do it, you can do it too."

I kid, but I don't necessarily always love the budget.

So just because I'm a Republican and I'm a Republican senator doesn't mean that I appreciate things that are gonna be in there.

I, like many of you, are looking at some things.

NC Innovation, that is really a sticky talking point, especially within our caucus.

I have heard though from Senator Berger's office that September 11th is gonna be that week of the budget.

The coroner offices have done their job, they finally have come to an agreement.

It's now up to our budget writer chairs to see what the member money requests are and that's where we're at on the budget process.

- All right, Joe, this is not your first rodeo.

The women get a bill, major bill passed in a couple weeks or a couple of days.

If you hear this, the story changes.

However, you've got Moore and then Berger and then Cooper's out there.

And say what you will about him not being able to affect this budget, he does have a bully pulpit.

- Absolutely, well, the governor is seeing all of his vetoes overridden now too.

It is a little bit of the lame duck status for a second-term governor starting to become a reality for Roy Cooper in many regards.

I strongly support Senator Sawyer's position.

I think greater parody between men and women in the legislature would undoubtedly be beneficial.

The Nevada state legislature a few years back was the first state legislature to be majority female and they got their work done and they went home.

And there's something to a better balance producing a better outcome.

But I would say that the unfortunate consequence of this protracted budget fight, and I don't know that I could say that the legislature were being lollygaggers.

I mean, we don't want to accuse anybody of something like that.

But because there was the announced intention to be done by the end of the fiscal year, legislators went ahead and made plans for family vacation and other work-related things.

And now, there's simply a lack of availability of legislators to come back and do the people's business.

And so to some extent, we're not getting the substantive issues not necessarily contained within the budget addressed in a way that would make more sense for the legislature to deal with them because they're simply not able to come to Raleigh.

- No, but great segue on these veto overrides the House and Senate Republicans, for the most part, overrode Governor Roy Cooper's vetoes of six different bills this week.

The General Assembly has been on break, as has been well known if you follow the General Assembly, and these bills have been lingering out there for several weeks.

It's no surprise they were vetoed, it's no surprise there's a veto override.

Three bills, if I do my math, deal with transgender issues of various persuasions, two bills deal with charter school oversight and management and lawmakers overrode a veto of legislation to hold current building codes as they're currently written.

That's a weedy one.

In other words, don't update building codes for all this new things that Joe Biden wants, Joe.

But tell me about the veto override as a concept.

Why would a governor veto legislation knowing and whipping that bill count to say Republicans have this if they want it?

- Well, it's a very interesting point, Kelly, and one of the observations I would make about the six override votes on the Senate side, there were all party line votes.

Now there was one...

There were three Republican senators not present and two Democrats, but the way math works.

- That still represented 3/5ths of the members present in voting.

So on strict party line votes, all six were overwritten in the Senate.

There were some Democrats that supported the override on the House side, including Representative Cecil Brockman, Representative Garland Pierce Representative Shelly Willingham, and Representative Michael Wray, who have voted with Republicans in other issues.

Now, the question may be Governor Cooper, despite the fact that he's vetoing these bills, knowing full well they will be overridden, will he do something politically for these or to these Democrats who have chosen to side with Republicans on the override?

That's always a peril.

And we know there was a very high profile case of a senator last year who voted with...

The democratic senator from Fayetteville who voted with the Republicans and there was a consequence, and he lost his reelection as a result of the Governor's involvement in that campaign.

So we'll see.

Do these Democrats now face some peril politically back in their district as a result of in effect, going against the Governor in his veto of these legislation?

- Is that the game that they play?

'Cause always when this happens, it's unfair to that sitting legislator who's a turncoat to their caucus.

Is it fair game if you buck the Governor, that you should pay a price?

- Well, I think that comes with being governor.

You know, you've gotta exert whatever political influence you have to try to push- - Allegedly buck the Governor.

- Yeah, right.

[laughs] You've gotta use whatever means are available to you to advance your legislative agenda.

And that means keeping the members of your own party in line with what you want them to do and how you want them to vote in the legislature.

This isn't new to Roy Cooper or this particular legislature.

Governors have been talking about issues that are relevant to a legislator's district in a way to get 'em to support or oppose particular things that governor supports or oppose for as long as we've been a state.

- Now we're gonna dive into some of the the pieces of legislation.

So we don't do that here.

I'm talking about the concept of the veto and the veto override.

Senator Sawyer, does it slow down business when bills linger?

You can't get them, if not off the docket, you can't get them outta your mind.

How does that work for you having to drive back and forth to Raleigh every week?

- Yeah, well, I enjoy the drive on 40 as Chair of Transportation.

I definitely am inspecting every mile as I go down the road, but it's just the way things are.

And so, instead of questioning it, I just understand that the Governor's gonna make his political statements about the vetoes.

And for those folks who are in the Democratic caucus who did support, you have to look where they're from.

They're in rural areas and things that we're gonna talk about here in just a few minutes, those issues, and for rural people, regardless if you're Republican or Democrat, they're very held dearly.

And I think those folks did what they should have done and represented the people back at home.

- Representative Buansi, you're seeing your governor, the leader of your, not your caucus, but he's the team lead as the executive of this state.

What do you make of of issuing vetoes when he really wants a budget?

You want a budget passed.

You wanna focus on the budget and you want Medicaid expansion?

- Well, the reality is we're a pretty diverse state.

We're a purple state, and not everyone is gonna think alike.

Not everyone's gonna agree on everything.

But I think, as a general concept, that veto especially from the governor's office, the governor who's elected by all the people of North Carolina, as state legislators, we were elected by the people of our own individual districts.

It's a fundamentally different position than the governorship.

And so, I think it's always important that the Governor as essentially a representative for all the people of North Carolina be able to give voice to- - Should he expect all Democrats to back his veto?

- Like I said before, diversity.

[group laughs] We are a diverse party.

We've got rural districts, we've got urban districts, we've got suburban districts.

And so, not everyone's gonna think alike at the same time.

But some of the greater points that Democrats stand for in terms of voting rights, in terms of public schools, in terms of civil rights, we all believe in that.

And so, the Governor's vetoes, I think, reflected that common belief that we all have.

- Donna, wrap this up.

Veto overrides as a concept and vetoes as a concept when most people say they wanna see business done.

- Right, right, I think first Governor Cooper does expect Democrats to side with him.

Look at what happened to Val Applewhite.

She didn't in the vote to pass, I think the Women's Bill of Rights.

- Correct.

- Oh, sorry, not Women's Bill of Rights.

- That's like a Women's Sports- - Women's, Fairness in Women's Sports.

And then she voted to uphold his veto, because she got a tremendous amount of pressure from the caucus, from Democrats, from activists.

But I think when we say he's the governor for all of North Carolina, we gotta remember where North Carolinians are on some of these issues.

He's vetoing bills that his primary likely voter supports, which is not where all of North Carolina is for the most part.

That's overlooking what a lot of the unaffiliated people are, where people are in moderate positions on some of these bills.

And he's following the far left of his voter base.

So when he's gonna be a governor for all of North Carolina, some of these vetoes were not that.

- And, but it's allowed.

He can do this.

- Absolutely.

- No, it's gonna - This is his right.

- get overridden.

- He's now vetoed more than all other previous North Carolina governors combined.

We've only had a veto override for the governors since the 90s, and he has far exceeded that record.

- It's six.

On Wednesday, was the most in any one day.

- Six, exactly.

- I mean, maybe that record will be broken too.

- And this is the process, right?

[group laughs] - And ironically, Val Applewhite is the Democrat Cooper supported to take out Kirk deViere, who was the Democrat that voted against him.

- I'm watching that primary very closely.

- There you go.

- And I'll just also add to that.

The legislative leadership has a lot of control over the schedule.

- Sure.

- Yes, yes.

Indeed, six bills were overwritten.

But that's also a decision by legislative leadership to put those on the calendar on one single day.

- Right.

- There you go.

Well, the Parents' Bill of Rights, one of those bills that became law after a veto override this week.

It's a ban on gender identity and sex education courses for kindergarten through fourth grade.

That's gained the most attention.

Also, if a student should profess gender identity confusion or request to go under a new name or a pronoun change at school would have the school leaders call the parents or guardians.

Other provisions though require schools to release information, guarantee parental access to report cards, and forbid schools from authorizing most medical care without parental permission.

Donna, you could peel any one of these subsections of this bill and write an article on it.

We're focused - So much.

- on the LGBTQ pieces.

- So, I think that is interesting.

That that has become the focus of this bill.

So remember this came up in 2022.

It made it through the House, did not make it through the Senate.

It's now 2023, brought up again, passed the legislature, vetoed by the Governor.

So that's where we stand right now.

No overridden.

This bill is predominantly by far about parental rights in getting information, particularly in schools about their children's health, wellbeing, education, performance, if a crime has been committed against them, if they're cutting themselves or getting beat up in the lunchroom, whatever.

The school has an obligation and now a legal obligation to share with the parent what's going on.

They're failing math, they're getting bullied, they're cutting themselves, whatever it is.

In that, is that if their child indicates that they want us to change their name or pronoun in school, that is lumped in with the child's mental, physical, and wellbeing, educational.

- Wellbeing, so that's the core of what the Parent's Bill of Rights is, the slice about LGBT and pronouns, that actually has been pulled out and made the focus.

It's really not the focus, it's about parents having access to their kids' curriculum and records in public schools.

Something that most people, 67% of North Carolinians think is a no-brainer.

- Representative Buansi, in text count, it is just a little bit of this bill, just a piece of it.

However, it has gotten the most attention.

Has this legislation fairly gotten attention at the appropriate places?

Should parents pull the bill out and see how it will affect them if they send a child to school?

- Well, I'm a parent and I think about the numerous parents across North Carolina who care about their children, who want the best for them, who wanna know what's going on with their children.

I find it ironic that in the same session we deal with the bill that is supposedly about parents' rights, but then on the other hands, we take away from those same parents the right to make healthcare decisions for their kids in consultation with their doctors.

And so to me what it comes down to is this is some extreme legislation.

We have not had problems in North Carolina in this regard and we should be trusting our public school teachers to do what they do best, which is to look after our kids.

So that's really what it comes down to for me is this is an extreme piece of legislation that really is unnecessary.

- I don't even have to set this up.

Senator yeah, you're ready to go.

- Well, to me, this bill has been misnamed.

It should be called don't talk about sex.

I mean, that's really all we're asking for.

If you have a kindergartner that's five years old to a nine year old, all they're saying is don't put sex in the curriculum.

And that that's not just like one type of sex, not homosexual sex or heterosexual sex.

It's just that word.

Just don't put it in curriculum.

And I think that's fair.

My family may have different values than others' families.

So I wanna teach my children about that very difficult topic.

And this what the bill has.

And I appreciate your point of view there but it has happened and that's why this legislation is here.

This legislation is crafted because we have seen examples of schools intentionally hiding information from parents and a lot of school districts, this would never happen in, but it has happened and this is why the legislation is necessary.

- Joe, talk about sex I guess.

- [Speaker] Let's talk about.

- No thank you, but I would like to make this observation, I do think looking at National Public Opinion Survey over the last several years, Americans have become increasingly skeptical about large institutions, corporate America, government, any large entity that they feel plays an oversized role in their lives.

I think some part of this, the Republican majorities coming into the General Assembly felt this was an issue they had heard from voters in their districts about and wanted to take action on.

But I think at some part, it's a reflection of an increasing skepticism people have about institutions, including the institutions of public education.

It is a very challenging intersection between educating children and dealing with societal issues.

Let's hope that maybe there can be a working out of a harmonious that balances out what the needs of parents are, the rights of parents and what we need to do to educate our young people.

Representative.

- Yep, so we've heard resoundingly from our LGBTQ community in North Carolina about the kinds of impacts that this kind of bill's gonna have on LGBTQ youth.

We already have well-documented issues with LGBTQ children feeling unsupported, feeling targeted and discriminated against.

We've seen some of the effects of similar bills like this in places like Florida.

And the fear that a lot of parents in North Carolina have is that essentially their kids will be targeted legislation.

- Joe's point, is it about the issue or distrust of parents in their public schools because of the 3/5 of our general assembly at least put this bill into state law.

So take away the issue and get it's taking the society out of this, are people just distrusting corporations?

Are they distrusting their local school boards now?

And if that's the case, in the world do you rebuild trust at the local level?

Government is local.

- It is local, but one of the premises you have there is that that proportion of the general assembly reflects what the will of the people is in the first place.

I mean, we, we talked in an earlier session about having a democratic governor.

If 3/5 of the state of North Carolina felt this way about parents' rights, I mean would we even have a democratic governor?

I would argue probably not.

And so what I would just say in response to that is when we have folks in North Carolina who are vulnerable, who tell us exactly what they need, how they need to be supported, we really ought to listen to that.

And especially since we've seen the effects of this legislation in other states.

I mean, we cannot afford to not listen to a minority of North Carolinians on this.

- Go ahead.

- No, I was gonna say, he makes a really good point, that mental health is an important part of public education.

And I think that the parents need to be in the conversation because schools do see our kids more than we do, in many cases they're at school.

But leaving the parents and not requiring that they be a part of the conversation indicates that we believe that the child belongs to the school, not the parent.

- Transgender females will be prevented from playing school sports under a new law created because of a veto override.

The law will limit female sports participation to people born biologically female in schools and college intramural sports.

The law would allow transgender males however to participate in boys school sports.

Critics call this discrimination Senator Sawyer, supporters say, no amount of hormones will lessen a transgender female's physical advantage against a person born a female.

And there it is on a platter to you.

You were part of this bill.

- Yes.

- [Speaker 2] You got what you wanted.

- Yes, and very happy for it.

This is a pro-woman stance.

A pro-woman legislation.

And something that I have been working on since I learned that the high school athletic association made this ruling October, 2019, that biological men can play in biological female sports.

So yesterday was very moving for me.

I carried the bill on the floor and I'm very excited about it.

So I put my man dig in earlier.

So let me be positive and pro men, men are just stronger and faster and better at sports.

They just are.

There's no amount of hormones that will be able to, or therapy that will be able to take that basic truth away.

So this bill is not anti anybody, it's pro-woman.

And we're saying that if you identify as a boy and you wanna go play sports, then go.

But you have to do it with your biology.

So the best thing that I've heard about this very topic is this.

- Bodies play sports not identities, and all this is sayin' is that biology matters and it matters on the sports, in sports.

- Representative.

Your thoughts on this one, I mean, it depends on which article you read sometimes or conversation.

A lotta people make points that you can shake your head and sorta go yes, on both sides of this issue.

- So you know, I love sports.

I grew up playin' football, actually played football in college and later went on to coach football in high school.

And the value that sports has for a young person, I mean it can instill confidence.

It can instill self esteem, a sense of self worth.

And a lotta the concerns that a lotta folks who are trans, but also folks who have trans people in their families, trans youth, the concern is that those folks will get shut out of sports due to this legislation, and especially when we have a body already in the State High School Sports Association who actually has a pretty good process in place for considering requests for a trans youth to play in a sport.

That's a tried and true system and I'm not sure what good we do stepping into that at the risk of actually alienating and targeting our trans youth.

- Real quick, I think we are overlooking something.

There's a young woman named Payton McNabb.

She was actually severely and forever altered by a transgender athlete when she was playing volleyball in Cherokee County.

There's this idea that you have to have a plus and minuses and it's not that.

It's that women enjoy sports.

I enjoy sports and we're gonna protect that.

If you allow biological men to play in women's sports you are gonna collapse the entire fabric of that, of women's sports all the way through.

- All right well sit tight on that, I wanna get one last issue in, the election law.

We know all these election laws came through this week.

We're not gonna change minds on athletics, this athletics bill, but republican lawmakers are pushing and approving new election law changes being sent to Governor Cooper.

Legislation in part, there's a lot to the legislation.

Absentee ballots be received by the local elections office before polls close on election day.

State courts will notify election officials when non-citizens are disqualified from jury duty.

That would allow them to compare their name to voter rolls and remove them.

A provision would also ban private money from funding elections.

That's back in the legislation.

Representative Baunsi, you've made some public statements on this.

We'll kick off this issue with you.

We've got about three minutes left in this show, so I'd like to get around the horn.

- All right so this is dangerous ground that we're treading on.

The right to vote, it's an essential, sacred American right.

The election systems that we've had in North Carolina are tried and true.

Just one example is that three day grace period that a person has to submit their absentee ballot, from election day.

Essentially when a person sends in their absentee ballot they have until that Friday after election day for the ballot to get into the County Board of Elections and then for that ballot to be counted.

Lotta folks gonna use this system.

A volunteer talked to me about how she helps folks, elderly people, get to the care that they need and their limited mobility.

But the barriers that this puts up in terms of eliminating that grace period, something that actually was approved on a bi-partisan basis unanimously by both republicans and democrats, eliminating that grace period is going to effect thousands of ballots.

And there are a number of other issues, but essentially when we have election systems that are tried and true and have been the most secure that they've ever been, even given the lack of funding that they have, we really should be focused more on funding our election systems and making it easier for voters to vote.

- Donna.

- Sure, well one great thing about North Carolina, we have the absolute longest absentee ballot period of any state in the nation.

You can start getting an absentee ballot in August for a November election.

And so that really opens it up to make sure everybody gets a chance.

There were thousands of ballots that came in in that three days after the election because that was the deadline.

So when we moved the deadline to election day that means that all these groups that were pushing to say okay, you have three days from that Friday, now they're gonna be changing that message and doing that recruiting.

So this really is about voter education to make sure every legal ballot is counted.

- Joe, are we doing anything other states aren't doing, anything unique about this approach?

- Well as Donna eluded, we've had pretty generous time for what used to be called one stop voting, and now early voting.

I think the thing that's important to remember here is that voting rights are a work in progress in this country.

In the first several presidential elections only white men with land could vote.

And we have seen the wisdom of including more people in our society in the voting process and we've gone through periods of times where even people that have the lawful right to vote were discriminated against from exercising that.

But I think to the point of this is it is in large part, be responsible, the candidates, to figure out the best way to communicate to their voters, make sure they're voting in a lawful way.

But again, people wanna know that elections have integrity.

And so there's an important set of parameters for every election to make sure people are confident of the results.

- 20 seconds, you get the last word.

Senator.

You'd better hurry up.

Go.

- Because I have a long time to think about it.

The 17 days of early voting that I sit outside and greet all of the voters as they come in.

So you have a lotta ways to vote and very excited about this legislation.

I'm glad it got passed.

- Perfect, well trained radio host.

We gotta go.

Thanks to our panelists.

Email your thoughts to statelines@pbsNC.org.

We'll read every one.

Thanks to this group.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Thank you for watching and I hope to see you next time.

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