- [Kelly] Former Governor Roy Cooper enters a clear democratic primary field for U.S. Senate, and lawmakers pass a mini state budget as they also override nearly 10 gubernatorial vetoes.

This is "State Lines."

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[triumphant music] ♪ - Hello again, everyone.

Welcome back.

Come in.

Have a seat with us.

I'm Kelly McCullen, and this is "State lines."

Joining me today, a person we'll be asking lots of questions of, Morgan Jackson of Nexus Strategies, and I dare say, the Cooper for Senate campaign.

Hello, Morgan.

- Great to see you as always.

- [Kelly] Great to see you.

Back to work for you.

- You know, you gotta make a living somehow.

- [Kelly] Somehow.

Representative Erin Pare joins us of Wake County.

Ms. Pare, thank you so much.

- It's good to be here.

- [Kelly] Mecklenburg County Democrat Representative Brandon Lofton's here.

Thanks for making the drive halfway across the state for this humble program.

- Thank you for having me.

- [Kelly] Dawn Vaughan, our great friend for " The News & Observer," covers it all, knows it all.

We'll ask her any questions safely.

Is that safe to assume?

- Sure.

Yeah.

- Okay, well, let's start.

We got a lot to talk to.

There is a fear among this group.

We can't get to all the topics.

I fear that they're right.

Lots is going on.

Lots has happened this week.

Former North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper has now entered the 2026 Democratic Primary for U.S. Senate.

That happened earlier this week.

The announcement came days after someone was leaking to the national media, Morgan, suggesting Mr. Cooper would seek an open seat created by incumbent Senator Thom Tillis, who says he's not seeking reelection.

Here's Candidate Cooper on MSNBC earlier this week.

- Time and time again, we are seeing Washington hurt everyday people, taking food out of the mouths of hungry children.

You know, I've thought that I need to make a difference at a time like this.

I need to run for the United States Senate because I've been able to work with Republicans in North Carolina, and I have been able to try and stop them when they do bad things.

- All right, Dawn.

We'll take it up with Morgan later.

We didn't get the scoop.

Rachel Maddow gets the scoop.

- Actually "The News & Observer" did have the video when Cooper announced.

But I think, you know- - Fair play, fair play.

[Dawn laughing] - On the moment, you know, Monday this week, but I think Cooper, for, I mean, years people have thought that he would be the U.S. Senate candidate.

Now it wasn't official for a long time, but that's kind of how politics works.

There's lots of talk for months and months, and then, you know, eventually, it comes to fruition.

But here we are.

Michael Whatley, his opponent.

There is still a primary, but it looks like we have the two contenders that's been decided.

So here we go, and we have well over a year.

- And Michael Whatley's in this race.

Representative Lofton, he announced he's officially in.

We discussed it on last week's show because he was unofficially in as the only majorly funded candidate backed by Donald Trump.

This could be a whale of a race.

I mean, as a spectator, we know you're a Democratic House member, we know which team you'll be on, but as a race, this looks big on paper.

- Yeah, it's gonna be a huge race.

It's gonna have a huge impact down ballot to all the down ballot candidates, including the House seats that are up.

They're already astronomically expensive.

You can spend a million dollars easily on a competitive race, and we expect that to be a competitive environment now, especially with the Senate race going on, competing for airtime.

So it's gonna be more important for all of us down ballot candidates to get our messages out early.

- Representative Pare, what's that Cooper brand among Republicans in the legislature 'cause we You're gonna have to set differences between Cooper and Whatley and Cooper and the legislative leadership.

But the Cooper brand is what?

- Well, I think that what Whatley's going to have to do is what he will have the resources to do.

And that is to remind the people of North Carolina about what type of governor Governor Cooper was for eight years.

And I think what that, what they're going to be reminded of is someone who governed from the far left corner of his party.

I mean, this is someone who is a anti law and order pro sanctuary state governor.

I mean, this is someone who wanted to reject common sense legislation to require sheriffs to cooperate with ICE.

Someone who vetoed a bill that protected women's sports.

I mean, they're going to be reminded about the people that still right now in Eastern North Carolina are living in hotels because of the botched Hurricane Florence and Matthew Recovery.

And that was under Governor Cooper.

I mean, this is somebody who was against tax cuts.

And those tax cuts really created an environment where North Carolina was propelled to number one in the country for business.

And so I think that North Carolinians are gonna be reminded of those eight years and what they saw there.

And I think Whatley is gonna do that successfully.

- Morgan, it appears from the early media coverage and what, what I'm seeing outta the campaign that you're willing to talk about the last eight years of the Cooper administration, his two terms as governor.

Is that accurate?

- Sure, listen, the governor has a very strong record, the people of North Carolina, one of the reasons he has such a strong, favorable rating right now is because a lot, maybe not Republicans in the legislature, but a lot of Republican actual voters think he did a good job as governor and think he shepherded us through trying times led the state to be number one in business in the country outta two of the last three years.

It's a pretty good accomplishment that any governor across the country would like to have.

But listen, governor Cooper's laser-like focused on the economy and how voters are struggling right now, family working families are struggling and they have been struggling.

Prices are too high.

Healthcare access continues to feel unattainable.

And we are talking about the things that's happening in DC right now that may strip 10 million people of their healthcare across this country, including a potentially over a million in North Carolina.

These are things that really affect people and families at their kitchen table every night.

And that's what the governor's gonna spend his time talking about.

Washington is broken.

We need change.

- I think we're gonna hear both of these messages for the next almost two years.

But I do wanna ask you, you've run a campaign for governor that was 80 to a hundred million dollars total all in on the in in the effort for both sides.

What's the difference in that in running an $800 million US Senate campaign by the time Mr. Whatley and Mr. Cooper are finished with this battle?

- Well, the simple math is, that's times 10, Kelly.

But that's what my public school education.

- No, but but scale is times 10.

- No, no so it, it will feel much more to viewers and participants of this election, like a presidential election.

Listen, North Carolina has had the most expensive US Senate races in history twice before or three times before, if you go back to Hunt Helms in 84 when we set the original record, this will set a record.

It's a big time race.

It's gonna North Carolina.

And part of that is 'cause North Carolina is a 50 50 state, you win or lose races here on the margin.

- Reporters on Capitol Hill had they got around Senator Tom Tillis, who's not out of office yet, asked him about the 2026 Senate race and Roy Cooper.

- Well, you know, he left as a relatively popular governor.

I had my disagreements with him the date back to the time that he was in the legislature voting on policies that we reversed when we took a majority.

I think if our candidate focuses on the economy in North Carolina got put on steroids beginning in 2011, the tax environment, the most attractive place to do business, all those things happened under Republican control in spite of Governor Cooper's efforts to hold them back.

And in spite of his efforts to vote for policy that we had to reverse when I became speaker, I think that he'll see, he will be able to do what another.

candidate would be able to do, but immediately reignite a national network that has helped him succeed in two gubernatorial races.

And we shouldn't discount that he won when I did and the president did.

- That is such an interesting soundbite, Don, because you have Tom Tillis leaving office.

I'm told he's not done yet.

Something else will come along, for sure.

But he's speaking as a former leader of North Carolina and he's, you know, moving out of, you know... Roy Cooper's moving up and Tillis is looking at something else, and Tillis is also talking to state voters, I would think there.

He's saying it was our policy, it's not Roy Cooper.

Was Cooper along for the ride?

- Sure, well I mean, whenever it's something like top state for business, top this or that, then everybody wants credit for it, right?

But part of that is that they're forced to work together and that's how, you know, the state ends up on this list.

But I think Tillis has some really good points, both about national money because there'll be so much national money coming in for Cooper, coming in for Whatley, but only North Carolinians get to vote in the election.

So both of them are gonna have to make their pitch to the actual North Carolina voters, and midterm elections are always a referendum on the current occupant of the White House.

So depending on how people feel about Trump a year from now, that could work in Cooper's favor, that could work in Whatley's favor.

And Cooper's time as governor, as Attorney General and the legislature, I think people are really gonna reflect on, already had their opinions built in because they lived here when he was governor, where Whatley hasn't served in office before.

So he's kind of new.

He's not new to politics, anything like that, but as far as new to having the average North Carolina voter know who he is, decide if they wanna vote for him, and obviously, he's so closely tied to Trump.

Trump supporters would, you know, be inclined to be Whatley supporters.

- Credit to Tom Tillis.

He does give credit to Roy Cooper for winning twice, you know, in this state, in some Republican years.

And Tillis' presence in this race could mean what for Democrat Representative Lofton?

- Well, I think we have to keep in mind why Tillis is not running, right?

He's not running because he stood up against some of the cuts in the Medicaid and SNAP that the president pushed forward that were harmful to our state.

So the choice we have right now is we have a choice between the two term governor, who was able to reach across the aisle, who was able to get Republican and unaffiliated voters, who has a history of standing up for healthcare in our state, or a political operative who is handpicked by the person who is causing us this pain right now.

That's the choice before voters and I think they'll choose Roy Cooper.

- Representative.

- Yes, I will just say that I was in the legislature as a Republican, obviously, in the house for his entirety of his last term, his four years of his second term, and this is a governor that really refused to work across the aisle on anything.

So when you're talking about these talking points about how he's a bipartisan governor, that's just not true.

I mean, it was almost impossible to have our governor work across the aisle with us, including on things like tax cuts, which again, I know he's gonna wanna take credit for this economy that is number one in the country, but it was the Republican legislature that put together those policies, dating back over a decade.

And Tom Tillis is right there.

I mean there was the Republican fiscal policies that created that environment that propelled us, in spite of Governor Cooper.

- Yeah, I think it's not gonna be a surprise that we have a different impression about the bipartisanship and what's happened in the house.

Look, 951, which was passed a few years ago, in 2021, the bipartisan compromise bill on energy that's now being undone with 266, that was an example of the kind of bipartisan nature that Roy Cooper brought to the table.

If you read the report from CSNBC about why we're the number one state for business and any business coming, it would tell you it's our workforce, which, that's the product of our school system, our university system our community colleges, it's not just a tax environment and in fact we're now dealing with the consequences of those budgets that the Republicans have pushed forward the last few years because we're gonna lose by $866 million next fiscal year, the budget director is telling us we're gonna lose $3.5 billion over the next three years.

And both budgets put forward have severe cuts into government agencies, community colleges, things that keep us safe.

These are the things we're dealing with right now we're having to clean up that mess.

- Well, I would just, if I can, I would just like to remind you that we did pass a budget bill this week that funded necessary items.

And one of those was ADM enrollment for public school K through 12 and community colleges.

And we, surprisingly, and I was actually shocked, not much shocks me anymore, we had roughly 50% of house Democrats that voted against that bill.

And these are the nuts and bolts of having the state continue to work and they voted against it.

And I think North Carolinians are sick and tired of party petty politics being put in front of the wellbeing of North Carolinians and I think this unfortunately was just another example of that from the Democrats this week.

- Well, of course, cuts to community colleges and universities is not petty politics.

And the many budget that we passed was less than sufficient even to cut, even to cover those shortfalls we have medically.

- That's the next segment, by the way.

You're teeing us up perfectly.

Morgan, it's true, there were super majorities of the GOP passing bills over Governor Cooper's objections and he's able to, it's like the president, how much can you as the campaign manager go, "Hey, reach in there and grab a little credit for this, little credit for that, or claim full credit for these successes in our state."

And what was his role in that when you're, when you're in a super minority status?

That's a fair question.

- It is a fair question.

Listen, I don't think anybody, including representative Bere would disagree with the fact that the reason 650,000 people in North Carolina have healthcare today that they didn't two years ago was 'cause Governor Cooper worked and cajoled and brought along Republicans who had passed a bill to deny, to ban Medicaid expansion, reversed their course.

It took him seven years because they fought it so far along the way, but that was a major bipartisan, representative Lofton talked about the Clean Energy deal in energy package.

There were a number of things that worked together creating jobs.

And listen, I think what people in DC are looking for is somebody who is willing to work across the aisle that is willing to say there are not Republican ideas and democratic ideas, they're good ideas.

People need solutions in this country right now.

And what we don't need is a bunch of partisan, let me just take my side and you take your side and I think Governor Cooper showed his governor that he can be that the kind of leader.

- Some of us need a show.

We need this side and that side so we can talk about something every week.

Just be nice about it, and civil.

- I see the statement's already out there and like everyone has their opinions and you know, the campaign ads, so we'll see, we'll see how that turns out.

It is fun for us.

It does get tiring.

But let's talk about this 26 race before we move on to the mini budget for North Carolina, here are the facts it will likely, is likely even the right word, it's the most expensive in history is what's coming to us folks as voters.

The Cooper Campaign announced record breaking fundraising totals for the first 24 hours following his announcement he's entering the race so campaign funding already up.

How will Campaign 26, Morgan, have changed from six years ago.

That's what I wanna ask you in the advent of AI, digital media setting aside policy and you know, politicians, what's different these days?

- Well, the first, the biggest difference between the Senate Campaign in 2020 and the Senate Campaign in 2026 is a Democrat's gonna win this one.

So I'll say that first.

And what I'll also say is, you know, it's what we see as the media continues to fracture.

The advent of AI really is gonna affect this race.

It affected the 2024 campaign.

But look at the media fracturization is that it's not just now you have the advent of what you didn't six years ago, really, the rise of podcasters the rise of online content creators.

People are getting their news from so many different places that it's not just the 6:00 news anymore.

It's not just a TV ad.

It is really about how you can, you have to find voters in a really fractured and bifurcated environment.

And you have to chase them around on the screens, whether it's their phones or their laptops or their iPads to be able to communicate with voters and all of that, and then you add AI onto that, just also makes things more expensive.

- You see deep fakes becoming normalized?

I know the past few cycles, people hated fake videos with the fake voice that may make certain politicians look terrible.

But once it's out and once the outrage ends, do you see an era where we'll see me saying something that I didn't really say?

Or you or any other?

- I think we see that every week on this show, Kelly, that you say something you didn't really say, but no, no.

In all seriousness, I think that is a big concern for everyone in this process.

And I think like every piece of technology that's out there, there are people who use it responsibly and they're bad actors.

And I think we have to call out the bad actors when they use it irresponsibly and when they create videos that have no semblance in reality and are completely fake, I think they gotta be called out.

And I don't care if you're Republican or a Democrat, they should be called out - Representative Pare, 26 here, what will be different about the 26 race for you?

'Cause there'll be a billion dollar Senate race just hanging right over your campaign's head there in Wade County.

- That's right, well, I'm looking forward to it.

I mean, for me, campaign season just doesn't come and go.

It's all the time.

And so I think that, you know, we'll have definitely that top of the ticket race, but I'm gonna run just like I always run in my portion of Wake County and do a good job for the people I represent.

But to your point, I mean, for my race, I am no stranger to the fake ads.

And this is what she said, but she really didn't say it.

And unfortunately, that's where we are sometimes.

And politics is normal, average people who just want facts and to make an educated decision get pulled into an environment where they just really can't trust the information that they're given about the candidates they have to choose from.

And that's too bad.

- Representative Lofton, representing your constituents, does AI and technology and 26 is gonna help you reach people more effectively?

Or does it get in the way of just good old door knocking and walking around neighborhoods?

- I think there's no substitute for good old door knocking, meeting a voter where they are on their doorstep, looking them in the eyes, hearing from them what they're concerned about, and seeing how you can help.

I think there's no substitute for that.

- And of course, Dawn, with all the money being split five different ways, your group has to fight, just like we do for funding now.

Do you see it changing technology, this changing technology and approaches to campaigning, affecting revenues for media in general?

Not the news and observer, but just TV and newspapers.

- Right, and I think any business is gonna look at AI and see how you can use it to your advantage, while also looking at, you know, the downsides.

I mean, just like anything, there's up and downsides.

And I think Representative Lofton's right about when it comes to campaigning.

People do spend a lot of time online.

Everyone's scrolling, scrolling, you know, you get lost in it.

But that can't replace an in-person interaction.

You all know at the general assembly, the way, you know, actual deals get done is by conversations.

And I think that goes a long way with campaigns too.

And I think previous campaigns, you know, parties have learned that your ground game is really important as far as winning because North Carolina margins victory or defeat are so close.

- Are these Senate candidates, are they gonna be available to local media and state media like Dawn and I?

Or would you expect both parties to go to Fox, MSNBC, CNN, and just keep it national to go with it?

- No, listen, I mean, as Dawn mentioned, the first outlet that the Cooper campaign spoke to was the local news observer.

But, again, you have to go where you can reach viewers.

And that is in a segmented environment that is cable, that is digital, that is podcasters, that are these online creators that people, you know, it amazes me the number of people who literally go to their device and watch a podcast or listen to a podcast or a YouTube blog instead of the news.

And that's where they get their news.

And so you have to go where the eyeballs are.

- Fair enough, state budget negotiators have agreed on a scale back North Carolina State Budget Bill, that happened this week as well.

Much, much smaller than traditional Budget Bill we might expect, but I've been told by some legislators not at this table, it funds priorities that both the House and Senate negotiators could sit down on or sit down at a table Monday morning, agree on it, avoid disagreements that stall a full budget compromise teachers to get your pay raises.

Only some state workers get theirs.

DMV is funded to hire new workers and lawmakers say they could return in late August and pass more budget legislation.

But for that I will not speak for the budget writer Erin Pare.

What is going on?

This is a tiny little budget bill, but I'm told it did relieve a lot of pressure.

- Well, it might be tiny, but it's mighty.

And it does include a lot of significant and meaningful funding to keep North Carolina going as we are still waiting to come together with a comprehensive budget negotiation.

And this is from the house.

I'm a appropriations chair and involved in those budget discussions as a Republican.

And I can tell you that we are very frustrated over in the house.

I mean we unveiled a very reasonable and forward-thinking budget in the house that included teacher raises that put us number one in the southeast for beginning teacher pay.

And across the board really put up our salaries for our teachers, which we really needed.

We did better in state employee raises than even the governor did.

I mean, we had a solid budget and we paid for it and we were ready to go and negotiate with the Senate to get that done.

But you really can't negotiate with someone who is not willing to come to the table and negotiate with you at this time.

So we're waiting on that.

But in the meantime, we passed a mini budget that does fund core subjects like the state health plan, like ADM enrollment, average daily membership, funding growth enrollment, like the DMV as you mentioned, like Medicaid, rebase.

Those are what we need to fund.

And I'm just very disappointed that half of the House Democrat Caucus voted against it this week.

- In previous shows, Senate budget writers have been on talking about the Republicans and they said, "We had deals in place like a tone for a budget that we build around that the New House leadership came in and changed deals that were reached under Tim Moore and Phil Berger," and it's your right to do it.

But they said they were shocked in some cases that what they assumed was like gospel truth was changed by the house budget and it was just, it just blew up the negotiations.

I see your eyes to say no, not, it's not true.

But that's what we've been told.

- Well, all I can tell you is that I'm a first year budget writer and the house put together a great budget that I think has got the support from Democrats across the aisle.

Even Morgan said that he called Republicans reasonable the other show.

And it was about our house Republicans, house Republicans.

- Let's be clear.

- Yeah, I recorded that and I often rewind and re-listen to that just to- - Representative Loft.

I'm not gonna knock her off that point.

The Senate did act surprise of the House budget.

They were surprised so many of you voted for it on the Democratic side, but they do say it.

It did kind of upend some previous agreements made in previous budgets and that's why we don't have anything right now as a state or just the mini budget passed.

- Well, like I said before, I think we are headed towards a real fiscal problem in our state unless we take action.

And I was happy to join with Democrats in supporting the House budget, version of budget, because it does something about that problem and it had the necessary teacher raises.

And I do hope that the Senate Republicans come to the table because we have to take action.

We're gonna face, again, $866 million less tax revenue next year and three and a half billion dollars over the next three years is our estimate.

We have to take action with considering how fast we're growing.

- I mean that was huge that a majority of House Democrats voted for House Republican written budget.

I mean that was, I feel like the biggest budget news of the year.

That, that happened.

Now, the Senate is a completely different entity, Senate Leader Phil Berger and his previous conversations with House Republicans.

But this is all over these future tax cut triggers, not the tax cut that everyone agrees on for next year, but the future ones.

And I don't think there's gonna be any movement yet, at least not until the end of August at the earliest.

- What happens in the end of August?

More budget talks or just a reluctant House and Senate having to drive back to Raleigh to meet about anything?

- Well, it's, I mean, the way the adjournment resolution is that last week in August, which is the first week of school in Wake County, I noticed as a parent, that will be maybe when it actually happens again.

There could also be another mini budget bill.

And these raises with the step increases, the way state law works, that has to be approved by the legislature.

But there's all these other raises out there for teachers, for state employees, all these other projects and everything.

And the mini budget also does fund projects that are already under construction.

- Morgan, let's face it, Senate Republicans, they believe that your Governor Stein, our Governor Stein and you saying there's nice things about House Republican budgets, you are really just stirring the pot to keep the Republicans fighting with each other.

I can see that being a plausible strategy and, you know, a conspiracy, if you will, among Senate Republican leadership.

- They clearly don't need any help from us.

I mean, we are, listen, I think we are at a place where we were a couple years ago, which is that even a largely super majority of chamber, both the House and the Senate being Republican are at war with each other and can't seem to agree on moving a major budget bill.

So what we end up are these small-ball, barely sort of main trying to maintain, rather than invest in the state, invest in our workforce, invest in things that are creating jobs.

And I think the House was responsible.

Their argument in their budget was these tax cuts have gone too far and we can't keep going because we're coming off the fiscal cliff.

And I think that's why you saw Democrats join because they made it a priority to invest in education rather than these massive tax cuts.

And I think that's, again, those are Democrats are in alignment on that.

- And, folks, you were right.

We did not get to everything we wanna talk to.

Veto overrides were on the table, but we have 30 seconds left in this show.

We'll pick it up at a future show.

Let some of these laws take effect.

Always good to have you, Morgan, you work hard.

We had Paul Shoemaker on here, your counterpart on many, many races, so it's good to have consultants on.

Representative Pare, Representative Lofton.

Dawn, always great to see you.

More importantly, you're our most important guest at this table.

Thanks, email us at statelines@pbsnc.org if you have any questions or comments.

We'll see you next week.

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