[piano intro - [Announcer] "Shaped by Sound" is a co-production of PBS North Carolina and the Department of Natural and Cultural Resources.

The series is presented by Come Hear North Carolina.

[gentle music] - [James] I'm James Mieczkowski, and this is "Shaped by Sound."

From an early age, Alice Gerrard has studied, played, and preserved American folk music.

After almost 80 years, she's become one of the foremost historians and archivists of the genre.

She's a Grammy nominee, a folk hero, and an absolute legend.

Today on "Shaped by Sound," performing with her band and in conversation with me, this is Alice Gerrard.

[upbeat bluegrass music] ♪ Get up in the morning and do right ♪ ♪ Don't you get up and go and do wrong ♪ ♪ Get up in the morning and do right ♪ ♪ All day long ♪ ♪ Well, you wonder why this world's going downhill ♪ ♪ Big wigs and politicians lie and cheat and steal ♪ ♪ We're doin' wrong to people in the name of freedom ♪ ♪ Come on children come on now now ♪ ♪ Get up in the morning and do right ♪ ♪ Don't you get up and go and do wrong ♪ ♪ et up in the morning and do right ♪ ♪ All day long ♪ ♪ Yeah ♪ ["Get Up and Do Right" continues] ♪ Oh ♪ ♪ You don't need all the cars and toys you think you need ♪ ♪ Substitute a bit of kindliness for all the greed ♪ ♪ So little happiness out in your field ♪ ♪ Come on children come on now now ♪ ♪ Get up in the morning and do right ♪ ♪ Don't you get up and go and do wrong ♪ ♪ Get up in the morning and do right ♪ ♪ All day long ♪ ["Get Up and Do Right" continues] ["Get Up and Do Right" continues] ♪ There's a man downtown, he's a-sleepin' on a grate ♪ ♪ A woman got cuts and bruises showin' on her face ♪ ♪ Little baby child needs a refuge place ♪ ♪ Come on children come on now now ♪ ♪ Get up in the morning and do right ♪ ♪ Don't you get up and go and do wrong ♪ ♪ Get up in the morning and do right ♪ ♪ All day long ♪ ["Fortune" begins] ["Fortune" continues] ["Fortune" continues] ♪ Yeah ♪ ["Fortune" continues] ["Fortune" continues] ["Fortune" continues] ["Fortune" continues] ["Fortune" concludes] - Alice Gerrard from Durham, North Carolina, thank you for being on "Shaped by Sound."

- Thanks so much.

It's lovely to be here.

- So I maybe wanna start our conversation today with sort of what is your relationship to music?

- It's been a personal relationship, but I think it is with almost all musicians.

You know, I think of it as sort of coming from the ground.

It comes from communities.

It's the southern music is what I'm talking about.

Southern, and I call it southern traditional music, whether it's country, whether it's bluegrass, my relationship to the music was shaped by the music, I would say, and by the interest in where the music came from.

You know, who were the people that played this music?

What did they do in everyday life?

You know, how come they played this song [chuckles] or that tune or whatever?

My interest has always been more than just the music.

It's the context of the music too.

Where did it come from?

Where did it come from?

- So that's been a pretty fluid journey for you, right?

- Yeah, it has, it has been, yeah.

And it started, I guess, just because one big huge bombshell was the Harry Smith "Anthology of American Folk Music."

And so, somebody loaned me his copy of the Harry Smith "Anthology," and it was like, oh my God, this is amazing music.

And so I tried to learn that, and then, you know, I tried to start teaching myself.

- It seems like this is a very pivotal moment in your career is hearing this thing for the first time, these recordings for the first time.

And you just got like jettisoned out into this whole different universe.

- And I wasn't the only one, other people.

It came out, I think, in 1952.

And it was also a time when a lot of people like me, not from traditional backgrounds, hearing it and just being so turned on by it, and they started playing mandolins and banjos.

And they lived in New York City and they lived, you know, other places.

I lived around Washington DC for many years, and people from the South moved up there a lot.

When you move, when you migrate, you bring your culture with you.

And so they brought music.

Every little place you'd go, there'd be some little band playing bluegrass music in the bar on the corner.

And so there were lots of these people, and they are all making music.

♪ Though a pilgrim on earth I may journey alone ♪ ♪ Knowing not what the future may bring or may hold ♪ ♪ I'd rather have beauty and sing a sweet song ♪ ♪ Than to covet the silver and gold ♪ ♪ Stormy water ♪ ♪ Stormy cold water ♪ ♪ All around me ♪ ♪ Drift all around me ♪ ♪ And the tempest and fury may roll ♪ ♪ Roughly may roll ♪ ♪ But I have ♪ ♪ But I still have ♪ ♪ My dear Savior ♪ ♪ My dear Savior ♪ ♪ How he helps me nobody can know ♪ ♪ No one can know ♪ ♪ When it seems ♪ ♪ Often it seems ♪ ♪ I'm forsaken ♪ ♪ I am forsaken ♪ ♪ And my earthly friends misunderstand ♪ ♪ Friends misunderstand ♪ ♪ Stormy waters ♪ ♪ Stormy cold waters ♪ ♪ Around me ♪ ♪ Drift all around me ♪ ♪ But I'll hold to God's unchanging hand ♪ ["Stormy Waters" continues] ["Stormy Waters" continues] ♪ Angry billows may toss me and cause me to fear ♪ ♪ Stormy waters around me may roll ♪ ♪ May roll ♪ ♪ I will hold to the hand of my Savior so dear ♪ ♪ He's the Shepherd that's keeping my soul ♪ ♪ Stormy water ♪ ♪ Stormy cold water ♪ ♪ All around me ♪ ♪ Drift all around me ♪ ♪ And the tempest and fury may roll ♪ ♪ Roughly may roll ♪ ♪ But I have ♪ ♪ But I still have ♪ ♪ My dear Savior ♪ ♪ My dear Savior ♪ ♪ How he helps me nobody can know ♪ ♪ No one can know ♪ ♪ When it seems ♪ ♪ Often it seems ♪ ♪ I'm forsaken ♪ ♪ I am forsaken ♪ ♪ And my earthly friends misunderstand ♪ ♪ Friends misunderstand ♪ ♪ Stormy waters ♪ ♪ Stormy cold waters ♪ ♪ Around me ♪ ♪ Drift all around me ♪ ♪ But I'll hold to God's unchanging hand ♪ ["Stormy Waters" continues] ["Stormy Waters" continues] ♪ Though I have disappointments so often I sigh ♪ ♪ And my cabin is humble and bare ♪ ♪ And bare ♪ ♪ Someday I'll inherit a mansion on high ♪ ♪ Where the beauties of heaven I'll share ♪ ♪ Stormy waters ♪ ♪ Stormy cold waters ♪ ♪ All around me ♪ ♪ Drift all around me ♪ ♪ And the tempest and fury may roll ♪ ♪ Roughly may roll ♪ ♪ But I have ♪ ♪ But I still have ♪ ♪ My dear Savior ♪ ♪ My dear Savior ♪ ♪ How he helps me nobody can know ♪ ♪ No one can know ♪ ♪ When it seems ♪ ♪ Often it seems ♪ ♪ I'm forsaken ♪ ♪ I am forsaken ♪ ♪ And my earthly friends misunderstand ♪ ♪ Friends misunderstand ♪ ♪ Stormy waters ♪ ♪ Stormy cold waters ♪ ♪ Around me ♪ ♪ Drift all around me ♪ ♪ But I'll hold to God's unchanging hand ♪ - As all these people are bringing in new energy, new life, what were you starting to like see and feel yourself right as you're getting into this whole new world of music that's just kind of coming up from the ground as you were kind of saying earlier?

- What I was feeling like was I just wanted to learn it, learn more and play it.

And it didn't go much beyond that.

But then I met another person whose family had moved up to Baltimore from West Virginia.

Her name was Hazel Dickens.

And almost her whole family had moved up to get work, including her.

And we just started singing together, and it kind of was nice.

You know, we didn't...

But I was listening to her for a long time before I ever opened my mouth.

- Why is that?

- Because the first most important thing if you're trying to learn this music is to be able to listen to it and take it in and have it become a part of you.

So I was listening to her sing for a long time and- - Now the song, "No Never No," y'all wrote that together, is that right?

- That comes from a book that I found in a thrift store once called "Heart Songs," and apparently a lot of people have them, [laughs] but it's a wonderful old book that's full of songs.

And in that book was this song called "No Never No," had music written out to it, and it said it was collected by somebody or other.

I really liked the words.

You know, it was like these words are cool.

You know, it's like an old ballad.

But then I started to pick the tune out on the piano, and it was kind of, ah, this is a terrible tune.

I don't like this tune at all.

So I made up another melody for it.

So that's my music, and the words come from the "Heart Songs" book.

I'm very drawn to the sort of lonesome sound of old time music and bluegrass.

- What is the lonesome sound?

- [laughs] Well, I mean, a lot of those old Irish singers had that same quality, you know, that keening voice somewhat embellished and, you know, hear the twists and turns that people put in and the way they come into a phrase and go out of a phrase, you know, comes from probably so many places.

It's hard to say it came from one place.

♪ They sat by the fireside, his fair daughters three ♪ ♪ They talked of their father who sailed on the sea ♪ ♪ Oh when he comes back we will all love him so ♪ ♪ He never again to the salt sea shall go ♪ ♪ No ♪ ♪ Never no ♪ ♪ I'll bring him this vest all of satin so fine ♪ ♪ And I'll be his carver when he sits to dine ♪ ♪ I'll climb on his knee, place a kiss on his brow ♪ ♪ He never again to the salt sea shall go ♪ ♪ No ♪ ♪ Never no ♪ ["No Never No" continues] ["No Never No" continues] ["No Never No" continues] ["No Never No" continues] ♪ O did you not hear it the sisters declared ♪ ♪ There's surely a spirit that talks in the air ♪ ♪ And whether we speak either loudly or low ♪ ♪ It answers in voices all mournful and slow ♪ ♪ No ♪ ♪ Never no ♪ ["No Never No" continues] ♪ It is but the tempest that rages so strong ♪ ♪ The gale will itself speed our father along ♪ ♪ Go look at the vane and see how the winds blow ♪ ♪ He'll bring us gay things for he promised us so ♪ ♪ No ♪ ♪ Never no ♪ ["No Never No" continues] ["No Never No" continues] ["No Never No" continues] ["No Never No" continues] ♪ Prepare ye fair maidens, prepare ye to weep ♪ ♪ Your father lies cold in the dark rolling deep ♪ ♪ Look not at the vane nor ask how the winds blow ♪ ♪ His ghost in the storm whispers mournful and slow ♪ ♪ No ♪ ♪ Never no ♪ - So you were nominated for your first Grammy in 2014.

How awesome.

What was that like?

- [laughs] It's not the kind of thing I usually go to.

I don't, you know?

It's incredibly huge.

And a couple of my kids came out with me and one grandchild came, and they really enjoyed it.

But it's a huge thing, you know?

But it was fun too.

Really, I wasn't gonna go.

I mean, I don't wanna go that thing.

But then people said, "You gotta go, you gotta go, you gotta go."

So I went, and I'm glad I did.

- Good.

- Yeah.

- I wanted to kind of bring it back to North Carolina for a second.

So you've had this sort of history kind of in DC and across the country and the South, but you started to call North Carolina home in the early '90s.

- I first moved to Nashville, and it was really fun living there, but I really missed...

It's all about doing business there.

- Right.

- Doing business.

[James chuckles] And I just wasn't into that.

There wasn't a lot of old time music happening at that time.

Part of the reason I chose here was because I knew a lot of people who lived here already.

I wasn't moving into a place where I didn't know anybody, you know?

There was a lot of music happening here too with the Red Clay Ramblers and the Fuzzy Mountain String Band and, you know, people doing the same things.

That was why I moved here.

["Sun to Sun" begins] ♪ What's wrong people with this old town ♪ ♪ Everywhere I go I hear the same old sound ♪ ♪ Talk, talk, talk from sun to sun ♪ ["Sun to Sun" continues] ♪ While we talk another fool goes and buys a gun ♪ ♪ Pretty little girl in her pretty new pink socks ♪ ♪ Got shot up just a-walkin' down the sidewalk ♪ ♪ Dreams all gone, all dead and gone ♪ ["Sun to Sun" continues] ♪ While they die another fool went and bought a gun ♪ ["Sun to Sun" continues] ["Sun to Sun" continues] ["Sun to Sun" continues] ♪ Sweet little kids sprayed with bullets in a schoolhouse ♪ ♪ No one seems to give a damn, we're livin' in a madhouse ♪ ♪ Pray, cry, pray from sun to sun ♪ ["Sun to Sun" continues] ♪ While we pray another fool goes and buys a gun ♪ ♪ Walkin' around in a world gone crazy ♪ ♪ Big shot politicians in their black Mercedes ♪ ♪ Won't do nothin', not one thing from sun to sun ♪ ♪ While they're doin' nothin' ♪ ♪ 'Nother fool goes and buys a gun ♪ ♪ Yeah ♪ ["Sun to Sun" continues] ["Sun to Sun" continues] ["Sun to Sun" continues] ♪ What's wrong people with the US of A ♪ ♪ Lost our minds and we've lost our way ♪ ♪ Pray, tears from sun to sun ♪ ♪ And while we weep and moan ♪ ♪ Another fool goes and buys a gun ♪ ["Sun to Sun" continues] ["Sun to Sun" continues] ["Sun to Sun" concludes] - Do you think that songs have lives?

- Yeah, they do have lives.

I mean, if people sing them or play them, they have lives.

And so it's continuing, you know, and when we used to go visit some of the older musicians, and we were young at the time, we were going to visit them, they were old at the time, almost 100% of the time, they loved having people come because I think in some way in their lives, they felt like their music would go on, you know, because other people were interested in it and doing it.

- I wanna ask you a little bit more about sort of where you are right now because you've had this sort of incredible journey of documenting and preserving and playing with all these artists.

- Mhm.

- And it seems as though, you know, even just having a conversation with you now that you like still look up to those people, but now it seems to me, you know, like people are looking up to you.

- [laughs] It's surprising, isn't it?

[laughs] - I don't know if it's surprising.

- I found it to be like, really?

[laughs] But yeah, I'm sort of learning to kind of accept it, you know?

I really love playing with the people that I'm playing with, and it's cool.

I mean, I like it, and they're great musicians.

- Mhm, a question that I like to ask people is, how are you shaped by sound?

- My parents were both musicians.

My mother played the piano.

She was a really good piano player, singer.

Her, she and her sisters had a traveling quartet called the Symphony Sisters Quartet.

And then my dad was a singer.

He came from England, and they used to have parties, music parties.

I can remember as a kid, you know, sitting on the stairs listening.

People would come over and bring their violin and they'd play together and, you know, sing stuff together.

And music is something you can do at home.

You can sit around and play it.

It's not something that has to be in a movie, on a stage.

You know, it can just be something that you do because it's fun and it brings friends together.

So that was in me from the very beginning.

I mean, it's shaped the work that I've done, chosen to do, and the music I've chosen to play and to identify with.

- Well, Alice, thank you so much for being here today.

You've been a lovely guest.

- Thanks for having me.

["December Daisy" begins] ["December Daisy" continues] ["December Daisy" continues] ["December Daisy" continues] ♪ Ah ♪ ["December Daisy" continues] ["December Daisy" continues] ["December Daisy" continues] ["December Daisy" continues] ♪ Oh yeah ♪ ["December Daisy" continues] ["December Daisy" continues] [Alice laughs] ♪ Oh ♪ ["December Daisy" continues] [Alice laughs] ["December Daisy" continues] ["December Daisy" continues] ["December Daisy" concludes] ["Sweet South Anna River" begins] - [James] Thanks for joining us on "Shaped by Sound."

If you'd like to hear the songs we discussed today, you can find them over on our website at pbsnc.org/ShapedbySound, or you can find 'em on YouTube.

["Sweet South Anna River" continues] ["Sweet South Anna River" continues] ♪ Along the banks of the sweet South Anna ♪ ♪ As far as eyes can see ♪ ♪ As I pass by old friends of mine ♪ ♪ Will wave goodbye to me ♪ ♪ Then goodbye my sweet South Anna ♪ ♪ Lord there's nothing can compare ♪ ♪ Remember me ♪ - [Announcer] "Shaped by Sound" is a co-production of PBS North Carolina and the Department of Natural and Cultural Resources.

The series is presented by Come Hear North Carolina.

[gentle music]