>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, OUR GUEST JOURNALISTS WEIGH IN ON THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN.

BIDEN'S JOBS FOR AMERICA PLAN, REDISTRICTING AND MORE.

STAY WITH US.

♪ >> HELLO AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR BLACK ISSUES FORUM.

I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

THIS WEEK MUCH OF THE NATION AND THE WORLD, IS FOCUSING ITS ATTENTION ON MINNEAPOLIS, WHERE THE FIRST TRIAL RELATED TO GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH IS UNDER WAY.

>> WE WON'T LEARN THE FATE OF FORMER OFFICER DEREK CHAUVIN FOR SEVERAL WEEKS, BUT THE TRIAL'S OPENING DAYS ARE ALREADY REVEALING NEW INFORMATION.

>> WE'LL SEE THAT IT DOES NOT LET UP AND THAT HE DOES NOT GET UP, EVEN WHEN MISTER FLOYD DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A PULSE.

IT CONTINUES ON.

>> PROSECUTORS NOW SAY CHAUVIN WAS KNEELING ON GEORGE FLOYD'S NECK FOR 9 MINUTES AND 29 SECONDS, LONGER THAN THE ORIGINAL 8 MINUTES AND 46 SECONDS THAT BECAME A GLOBAL RALLYING CRY.

>> [CROWD] BLACK LIVES MATTER!

>> THE FORMER OFFICERS DEFENSE IS ALSO LOOKING TO ESTABLISH DOUBT OVER WHAT KILLED GEORGE FLOYD ARGUING THAT DRUGS AND OTHER CONDITIONS CAUSED HIS DEATH NOT CHAUVIN, WHO HAS PLED NOT GUILTY ON ALL CHARGES.

MEANWHILE, THE PROSECUTION IS WORKING TO PORTRAY THE OFFICERS AS NEGLECTFUL AND UNCARING.

>> AGAIN, SIR, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU GREW ANGRIER AND ANGRIER.

>> BUT CHILDREN'S DEFENSE ARGUES THE CROWD THAT GATHERED NEAR FLOYD'S ARREST DISTRACTED THE OFFICER, CAUSING HIM TO FEAR FOR HIS SAFETY AS IT GREW MORE EMOTIONAL.

[SOBBING] EMOTIONS ALSO RUNNING HIGH FOR SEVERAL WITNESSES AS THEY TOOK THE STAND, AND FOR THE MILLIONS WATCHING THE TRIAL, INCLUDING MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA.

ONE REPORTER TWEETED WEDNESDAY, "I'M SORRY I STOPPED TWEETING, BUT THIS IS TOO MUCH THEY'RE "PLAYING POLICE BODY CAM VIDEO, AND IT'S JUST HORRIFIC, SO I "DON'T WANT TO, AND FRANKLY CAN'T LIVE TWEET THESE DETAILS."

>> LET'S GET THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS OPENING WEEK OF THE TRIAL FROM THIS WEEK'S PANEL.

I'D LIKE TO WELCOME MARY C. CURTIS OF ROLL CALL AND THE EQUAL TIME PODCAST AND TIM PULLIAM OF WTVD.

BOTH OF YOU THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

YOU KNOW WE WATCH - I WOULD IMAGINE, YOU WATCHED PARTS OF THE OPENING TRIAL, AND WHAT DO YOU AS JOURNALISTS.

TAKE NOTE OF AND WHAT HAVE YOU KIND OF OUTLINED AS TAKE A WAYS SO FAR IN THIS TRIAL?

I'M GOING TO OPEN UP WITH YOU TIM.

>> YOU KNOW DEBORAH, JUST LOOKING AT THAT REEL, THAT PACKAGE THAT YOU JUST AIRED BRINGS TEARS TO MY EYES.

SO THIS IS THIS VERY DIFFICULT FOR JOURNALISTS, PARTICULARLY BLACK JOURNALISTS, BECAUSE WE SEE THE CONNECTION YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER THAT GEORGE FLOYD LOOKS LIKE.

SO IT HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO PROCESS THESE LAST 3 DAYS.

BUT LISTENING TO THIS TESTIMONY, YOU'RE LISTENING TO THE EMOTION, THE IMPACT THAT THIS TRIAL AND THIS CASE HAS HAD ON THOSE INDIVIDUALS THAT WITNESSED THIS, SO YOU'RE LISTENING TO THAT, THE QUESTIONS THAT THE PROSECUTION AND DEFENSE ARE PUTTING OUT TO THE PEOPLE ON THE STAND AND YOU'RE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THEY'RE TRYING TO GO WITH THIS AND AS YOUR YOUR STORY JUST MENTIONED, YOU HAVE THE PROSECUTION THAT WANTS TO SHOWCASE THAT THESE OFFICERS WERE RECKLESS, THAT THEY HAD A LACK OF REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE.

YOU HAVE THE DEFENSE THAT IS TRYING TO SAY THAT THEY WERE DISTRACTED BY THESE ONLOOKERS, THAT THEY FELT THREATENED, AND THAT THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO USE THE FACT THAT GEORGE FLOYD HAD SUBSTANCE IN HIS SYSTEM AS A REASON FOR HIS DEATH.

SO WE'RE LOOKING AT ALL THAT AND WE'RE PROCESSING ALL OF IT JUST AS THE VIEWERS ARE.

>> EXACTLY, AND YOU KNOW THE EMOTION THAT TOO, KIND OF IMPACTED ME AS WELL CERTAINLY FOR ALL THE REASONS THAT YOU SAID TOO.

MARY WHAT ARE YOU PULLING FROM IT?

>> WELL AS TIM SAID, WE ARE JOURNALISTS, BUT WE'RE NOT JUST AFRICAN AMERICAN HUMAN BEINGS, WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS PERIOD.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> AND YOU ARE LOOKING AT THAT, YOU CANNOT HELP BUT REALIZE THAT IF YOU ARE HAVING THESE TRAUMATIC EPISODES AND IT IS TRAUMATIZING TO JUST WATCH THE VIDEO YOU CAN HARDLY WATCH IT ALL THE WAY THROUGH IT'S MORE THAN 9 MINUTES, CAN YOU IMAGINE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE WITNESSING IT?

AND IT WAS VERY INTERESTING TO ME BECAUSE I'M NOT A LAWYER, MY OLD OLDEST BROTHER'S A JUDGE.

BUT YOU CAN SEE THE STRATEGIES, AND WHEN THE DEFENSE WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT THIS WAS AN ANGRY MOB THAT WAS DISTRACTING THE POLICE, BUT YOU SEE WHEN THEY'RE TAKING THE STAND, ORDINARY , OLD, YOUNG, WHITE, BLACK, YOU KNOW THE WHITE FEMALE EMT FIREFIGHTER WHO WAS JUST TAKING A STROLL, AND SHE SAID THEY WOULDN'T LET HER HELP HIM, AND SHE GOT VERY EMOTIONAL.

MY THOUGHTS KEEP GOING BACK TO THAT THEN 17 YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO TOOK THE VIDEO TO AND HAD THAT WHEREWITHAL TO DO IT.

THE FACT THAT SO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE FELT GUILT THAT THEY COULD NOT HELP HIM, WHEREAS THEY WERE THE BYSTANDERS.

THEY WEREN'T THE POLICE OFFICERS IN CHARGE, THE POLICE OFFICERS WHO HAD GUNS BY THE WAY, SO YOU KNOW THEY WERE THE ONES IN CHARGE.

AND ALSO THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW THE YOUNG BLACK MAN WHO WAS A MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST WHEN THEY WERE TRYING TO PORTRAY HIM AS AN ANGRY PERSON, AND HE SAID NO, I'M A PROFESSIONAL.

>> I'M SO GLAD HE STOOD UP FOR HIMSELF ON THAT.

YES, BUT I THINK AS A BLACK PERSON YOU REALIZE ALL THE STEREOTYPES THEY TRY TO PUT ON YOU, SO IT'S TRAUMATIZING, BUT I ALSO THINK AS JOURNALISTS WE KNOW THE HISTORY OF HOW RARE IT IS FOR A POLICE OFFICER, PARTICULARLY A WHITE POLICE OFFICER TO BE HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR KILLING SOMEONE AND HOW JURIES TRY TO SAY YOU KNOW TO LOOK INTO THEIR POINT OF VIEW, SO YEAH, I THINK THERE'S A BIT OF SKEPTICISM ALSO AMONG THE BLACK COMMUNITY THAT THEY WILL REALLY BE HELD TO ACCOUNT.

AND THE VIDEO, IT'S VERY COMPELLING.

>> AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'M NOTICING AND WE COULD ALMOST EXPECT THIS IS THE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE DRUGS IN GEORGE FLOYD'S SYSTEM, AND IN FACT, AT DUKE UNIVERSITY OVER THE PAST WEEKEND, THE TOXICOLOGY REPORT FOR GEORGE FLOYD WAS FOUND POSTED TO A BLACK HISTORY DISPLAY AND IT WAS LATER REMOVED, BUT THIS WHOLE TACTIC OF DEMONIZING THE VICTIM AND FOCUSING ON EVEN IF WE DON'T SAY ITS DEMONIZING THE VICTIM, BUT SWITCHING TO LOOK AT WELL, YOU KNOW 'IT REALLY WASN'T THAT KNEE ON THE NECK THAT CAUSED THE DEATH.'

BUT HOW DO YOU SEE THAT TACTIC KIND OF PLAYING ITSELF OVER AGAIN IN THIS INSTANCE, TIM?

>> YOU KNOW IT IS THE DEFENSE'S CLAIMING AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO PUSH AND SO THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO PLAY OUT AND WE HAVE SEEN IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN AS YOU MENTIONED IN PREVIOUS CASES, I THINK ABOUT ERIC GARNER, YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT HE WAS SELLING LOOSE CIGARETTES OUTSIDE OF A STORE, YOU KNOW TRYING TO DEMONIZE WHAT HE WAS DOING, BUT IN THE MOMENT, HE WAS BEING CHOKED AND HE COULDN'T BREATHE AND SO I THINK IT'S ALWAYS GETTING BACK TO THE HUMANITY ABOUT THESE INSTANCES, THAT THESE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED THAT THAT IS WHO THEY ARE WHO THEY WERE AND NOT LOOKING AT ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT DISTRACT US.

>> WELL WE'LL BE LOOKING AT HOW THESE -- MARY, YES?

I WAS SAYING WE THINK TO BE BLACK, YOU HAVE TO BE THE PERFECT VICTIM AS TIM SAID, AND WE SEE SO MANY -- LOOK AT THIS HISTORY WHEN IT WAS OPIOID ABUSE PRIMARILY AMONG WHITES, IT WAS A SICKNESS, AN ILLNESS SOMETHING TO BE TREATED.

DON'T TAKE KIDS AWAY FROM THEM, LET'S SEE HOW WE CAN HELP THEM.

WHEN IT'S AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN PERSON, IT'S A DRUG ADDICT.

IT'S A TERRIBLE PERSON.

>> WELL, IT'S DEFINITELY A LOT TO PULL FROM THIS TRIAL AS IT UNFOLDS, AND WE'RE DEFINITELY BE WATCHING IT.

BUT WE WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S PLAYING OUT IN OUR HEADLINES.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS CALLING FOR A NEW 2 TRILLION-DOLLAR INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN AN INVESTMENT THAT WILL BENEFIT COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

BUT THE PLANNED METHOD OF PAYING FOR ALL OF THIS, RAISING CORPORATE TAXES, IS ALREADY GETTING RESISTANCE.

>> NOT A PLAN THAT TINKERS AROUND THE EDGES.

IT'S A ONCE IN A GENERATION INVESTMENT.

IN AMERICA.

>> IT'S LIKE A TROJAN HORSE.

IT'S CALLED INFRASTRUCTURE.

BUT INSIDE THE TROJAN HORSE IS GOING TO BE MORE BORROWED MONEY.

>> THE PLAN DOES MORE THAN FIX BRIDGES AND ROADS, IT WOULD PROVIDE 100 BILLION DOLLARS FOR EXPANDING HIGH SPEED BROADBAND WITH THE SO-CALLED DIGITAL DIVIDE IMPACTING BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES, ESPECIALLY HARD.

NORTH CAROLINA LAWMAKERS RECENTLY PUT 30 MILLION DOLLARS INTO BROADBAND EXPANSION FOR PARTS OF OUR STATE AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN 2 COUNTIES JUST JOINED A PILOT PROGRAM TO USE A SPACE X SATELLITE SYSTEM TO PROVIDE STUDENTS WITH INTERNET ACCESS.

I'M SURE MARY AND TIM, YOU'VE COVERED THE BROADBAND ACCESS QUESTION IN DIFFERENT CAPACITIES.

LET ME OPEN UP WITH YOU MARY.

WHAT'S GOING ON ACROSS OUR STATE WITH REGARD TO BROADBAND AND THE REAL SERIOUS DIVIDE THAT IT'S CREATED?

>> I THINK THE COVID CRISIS AND THE FACT THAT SO MANY KIDS WHO ARE IN SCHOOL AND DOING IT ONLINE REALLY HIGHLIGHTED AS THE COVID CRISIS DID IN MANY WAYS, THE DIFFERENT DISPARITIES BETWEEN DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES, WHETHER IT WAS HEALTH CARE, IN THIS CASE BROADBAND.

WE SAW MANY URBAN AREAS AND MANY RURAL AREAS AS WELL DID NOT HAVE IT, AND SO SOME KIDS WERE UNABLE TO THEIR HOMEWORK, THEY HAD TO GO TO HOT SPOTS THEY HAD TO GO TO A MCDONALD'S OR TRY TO GO SOME PLACE AND IT REALLY DID HIGHLIGHT THE FACT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY ARE FALLING BEHIND.

SO THERE REALLY IS A NEED PARTICULARLY IN A PLACE LIKE NORTH CAROLINA, WHERE WE HAVE SUCH VAST DISPARITIES AMONG THE HAVES AND THE HAVE NOTS.

>> I'M SO GLAD THAT YOU POINTED OUT NORTH CAROLINA BECAUSE ALREADY I SORT OF SENSE THAT IT COULD BE SAID THIS IS A BILL THAT'S GOING TO BENEFIT THOSE STATES THAT HAVE THESE LARGE DENSELY POPULATED CITIES.

BUT YOU KNOW WE HAVE THAT NEED RIGHT HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A DENSELY POPULATED METRO AREA RIGHT TIM?

>> THAT'S RIGHT DEBORAH.

I'VE DONE STORIES ABOUT THIS OVER THE SUMMER WITH THE DIGITAL DIVIDE AND WHEN WAKE COUNTY WHICH HAS THE LARGEST SCHOOL DISTRICT IN OUR STATE, 27,000 HOMES DO NOT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS.

THEN ANOTHER FACT, ACCORDING TO THE CENSUS, IN NEARLY 10% OF THE HOMES, A SMARTPHONE IS THE ONLY DEVICE IN THAT CONNECTION, SO THE NEED IS GREAT, AND JUST AS MARY POINTED OUT IN OUR RURAL AREAS, THERE NEEDS TO BE ACCESS AND IT SOUNDS LIKE THIS BILL THIS PLAN THAT BIDEN HAS IT'S GOING TO EXPAND IT TO INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES AS WELL.

SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT YOU KNOW OUT WEST IN NORTH CAROLINA AS WELL AS IN LUMBERTON WHERE THERE'S A HEAVY PRESENCE OF THE LUMBEE TRIBE, SO I THINK IT'S A GREAT STEP, IT'S DEFINITELY NECESSARY IF WE'RE GOING TO CLOSE THIS DIGITAL DIVIDE, BECAUSE ALSO WE KNOW THAT MONEY IS A FACTOR.

IF YOU MAKE LESS THAN $20,000 A YEAR, YOU ARE LESS LIKELY TO HAVE A COMPUTER OR INTERNET ACCESS.

>> AND THAT AS YOU SAID, TIM AND MARY IT LEAST IT WAS REVEALED ALSO WITH THE COVID CRISIS, BECAUSE HERE'S INFORMATION RIGHT ON LINE FOR EVERYBODY TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU CAN GET INFORMATION, WHERE YOU CAN GO GET YOUR VACCINE, BUT YOU KNOW THAT DID NOT TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T EVEN HAVE BROADBAND, SO THIS WOULD BE A BIG HELP THERE BUT THE FACT THAT WE'RE TRYING TO PULL FROM CORPORATE TAXES, HE'S GOT AN UPHILL BATTLE ON THAT, BUT IT'S REALLY NOT A BIG DEAL BECAUSE THERE WAS AN INCREASE ON CORPORATE TAXES, SEVERAL YEARS AGO AND THEN IT WAS BROUGHT THAT DOWN SO TO TAKE IT BACK TO 28% ON CORPORATE INCOME TAX SHOULDN'T BE A BIG DEAL.

>> SO IF I CAN JUST ADD, DEBORAH, OUTSIDE THE BROADBAND ACCESS, THIS IS INFRASTRUCTURE, SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WATER.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ROADS AND BRIDGES.

I'M HOPING THAT THIS PACKAGE WILL BENEFIT BLACK CONTRACTORS >> YES.

>> AND WOMEN OF COLOR, OWNED BUSINESSES THAT THEY GET SOME OF THIS MONEY, SOME OF THESE CONTRACT WORK IF THIS PASSES, BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CLEAN WATER, BETTER MOBILITY, YOU KNOW THAT CAN REALLY HELP THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

>> IT'S REALLY JOBS.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT JOBS.

AND JOBS TOO.

LOTS OF JOBS.

>> AND THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED THE JOBS AMERICA PLAN.

[CHUCKLING] WE'LL SEE HOW THIS ALL PLAYS OUT.

BUT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S ABILITY OR INABILITY TO PASS HIS TOP AGENDA ITEMS WILL DEPEND ON COOPERATION IN CONGRESS AND THAT NOTION IS SPARKING TALK ABOUT THE FILIBUSTER AND ITS HISTORY, SOME SAY IT'S BEEN A TOOL FOR BITING CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION, WHILE OTHERS INSIST IT IS NOT RACIST AT ALL.

WELL, FORMER PRESIDENT OBAMA HIMSELF CALLED THIS A LEGACY OR REMNANT OF JIM CROW.

WHAT HAVE YOU ALL LEARNED ABOUT THE FILIBUSTER AND ITS TIES TO OUR RACIAL HISTORY?

LET ME OPEN WITH YOU MARY.

>> WELL IN THE PAST YEARS IT HAS BEEN USED A LOT TO BLOCK CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION.

PEOPLE REMEMBER THAT RECORD SETTING FILIBUSTER BY THE LATE SENATOR STROM THURMOND.

WHEN HE JUST STOOD UP FOR HOURS AND HOURS TO FIGHT AGAINST CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION AND THAT WAS A WAY TO BLOCK IT.

SO THAT HAS BEEN ITS USE, AND I CAN SEE THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S VERY WARY.

HE WAS ELECTED WITH THIS BROAD AGENDA ON VOTING, ON CLIMATE, ON HEALTH CARE, ON INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF HE CANNOT ENACT ANY OF THESE THINGS, BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A TIGHT SENATE, YOU KNOW 50-50 SENATE WITH VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS, THE DECIDING VOTE.

BUT YOU HAVE FOLKS LIKE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR JOE MANCHIN OF WEST VIRGINIA AND KYRSTEN SINEMA OF ARIZONA SAYING THEY DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER.

SO YOU HAVE FOLKS SAYING IS THERE A WAY TO CARVE OUT CERTAIN PARTS OF IT AND SAY WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE VOTING REFORM AND SUCH THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY CUT IT OUT AND HAVE IT WITH A SIMPLE MAJORITY, SO IT'S A TOOL THAT MITCH MCCONNELL WHILE SENATE MINORITY LEADER REALLY WANTS TO KEEP, BUT IT CAN ALSO BLOCK THE LEGISLATION.

>> AND I'VE HEARD SOME GROUPS SORT OF COMPLAINING THAT THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN AND FOR THE DEMOCRATS TO PLAY GANGSTER, TO COME IN WITH THE BIG GUNS AND SAY 'LISTEN WE'RE NOT TAKING ANY PRISONERS AND WE YOU KNOW WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS FILIBUSTER.'

TO WHAT BENEFIT IS IT TO COME ON IN AND USE THAT POWER RIGHT NOW VERSUS TIM, YOU KNOW JUST WORKING TOGETHER WITH CONGRESS TO TRY TO GET THINGS DONE IN A COOPERATIVE MANNER?

>> YOU KNOW I LIKE THE BETTER STRATEGY DEBORAH, WORKING TOGETHER BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO STRONGHOLD SOMETHING THROUGH IT COULD BACKFIRE WHEN YOU BECOME THEFROM MINORITY DURING THE NEXT ELECTION.

SO YOU DON'T WANT TO BE A BULLY IN MY OPINION.

I THINK YOU DO WANT TO TRY TO WORK TOGETHER JUST TO MARY'S POINT YOU KNOW THIS FILIBUSTER HAS ALSO BLOCKED ANTI-LYNCHING BILLS, WHICH SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD BE - GIVEN THAT THAT WOULD BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER CONSIDERING OUR PAST BUT IT HAS BLOCKED THAT'S WHAT THE FILIBUSTER HAS DONE IN THE PAST.

I THINK RIGHT NOW DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS THEY REALLY WANT TO PASS VOTER PROTECTION BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE THAN 200 BILLS THAT HAVE BEEN FILED ARE INTRODUCED TO RESTRICT VOTING ACROSS 43 STATES.

SO I THINK THE MISSION RIGHT NOW IS TO TRY TO USE THIS FILIBUSTER FOR THAT.

I JUST DON'T KNOW IF IT'S GOING TO WORK LIKE MARY SAID THERE'S AN UPHILL BATTLE BECAUSE YOU HAVE TWO DEMOCRATS BUT JUST NOT ON BOARD WITH THIS.

>> WELL TIM, IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU MENTION VOTING, BECAUSE LEADERS IN GEORGIA ARE FACING MORE AND MORE BACKLASH CONNECTED TO A NEW VOTING BILL.

THEY CLAIM THE NEW RULES WILL HELP KEEP ELECTIONS SAFE AND SECURE.

BUT OTHERS ARE CALLING THEM RESTRICTIVE, WITH SEVERAL LAWSUITS ALREADY OPPOSING THE LAW.

EARLIER THIS YEAR, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER SAID WE COULD SEE A SIMILAR LEGAL FIGHT HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA WHEN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ADJUST OUR VOTING DISTRICTS BASED ON THE CENSUS.

>> NORTH CAROLINA REALLY IS IN SOME WAYS GROUND 0 FOR PARTISAN AND RACIAL GERRYMANDERING AND THE ONLY WAY I CAN TO CRACK THAT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN NORTH CAROLINA IS THROUGH THE COURTS.

STATE DEMOCRATS JUST SUGGESTED A PLAN THAT WOULD LET VOTERS DECIDE BETWEEN KEEPING THE CURRENT SYSTEM WHERE LAWMAKERS DRAW THE DISTRICT LINES AND ALLOWING A NONPARTISAN COMMISSION TO FILL THAT ROLE.

BUT MAKING THAT HAPPEN MAY BE A TOUGH BATTLE WITH REPUBLICANS CURRENTLY AGAINST REFORM.

MARY, YOU KNOW WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENED IN GEORGIA AND REALLY THAT IS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE 2020 ELECTION.

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT WHAT WE MIGHT BE EXPECTING HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA.

WE CONTINUE TO WANT TO CALL OURSELVES.

THE PURPLE STATE.

AND AS NORTH CAROLINA DID DELIVER THE ELECTION FOR REPUBLICANS, WHAT KINDS OF THINGS OR SHOULD WE BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR AS WE APPROACH THE NEXT ELECTION?

>> WELL NORTH CAROLINA HAS A FRAUGHT HISTORY WITH THIS BECAUSE WE KNOW THIS ALL HAPPENED IN 2013 WHEN THE SUPREME COURT THROUGHOUT IN THE SHELBY DECISION SHELBY VERSUS HOLDER, MEANING ERIC HOLDER.

HE PROVISIONS OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

THAT MEANT THAT STATES HAD A PRE-CLEAR ANY CHANGES IN THEIR VOTING LAWS AND THAT WAS BECAUSE THEY HAD A PAST HISTORY OF DISCRIMINATION AND AFTER THAT NORTH CAROLINA HAD THIS BIG BILL THAT WAS THROWN OUT IN THE FEDERAL COURT FOR TARGETING BLACK VOTERS WITH, AS THEY SAID, 'ALMOST SURGICAL PRECISION.'

SINCE THEN THEY HAVE AN AMENDMENT TO OUR STATE CONSTITUTION.

SO WE ARE GOING TO HAVE SOME KIND OF BILL.

BUT WE SEE THESE THINGS HAPPENING AS YOU SAID, EVEN THOUGH REPUBLICANS DID PRETTY WELL IN THE LAST ELECTION BUT NOT AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET AND WE SAW STATES LIKE GEORGIA GO BLUE STATEWIDE.

AND SO YOU HAVE THESE BILLS WITH THESE RESTRICTIONS THAT BEFORE YOU KNOW REPUBLICANS WERE FOR ABSENTEE VOTING.

SO IN NORTH CAROLINA, THIS EFFORT FOR THE FAIR MAPS WHERE THEY WANT AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION LIKE SOME STATES TO DRAW IT SO YOU DON'T HAVE THESE GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS AND IT WILL BE A TOUGH SELL BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WHATEVER PARTY IS IN POWER, WANTS TO HOLD THE POWER TO DRAW DISTRICTS AND RIGHT NOW THAT'S REPUBLICANS.

BUT GENERALLY, PEOPLE, IF YOU DO POLLS, ARE IN FAVOR OF THAT.

BECAUSE -- >> [DEB] ARE IN FAVOR OF GERRYMANDERING?

NO, PEOPLE ARE IN FAVOR OF HAVING INDEPENDENT COMMISSIONS OF HAVING MORE INDEPENDENT GROUPS DRAW THE DISTRICTS BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN HOW -- WITH TECHNOLOGY NOW, YOU CAN DRAW A DISTRICT THAT SPLITS UP A CITY IN HALF.

>> OR THE CAMPUS.

>> YES, OR THE CAMPUS OF NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL AND SO FORTH SO PEOPLE THINK THAT'S KIND OF RIDICULOUS BUT OBVIOUSLY IF YOU'RE THE PARTY IN POWER YOU WANT THAT.

BUT THESE VOTING LAWS ARE REALLY - I MEAN IN GEORGIA A PART OF IT THAT PEOPLE ARE REALLY AFRAID OF THAT OTHER STATES WANT TO DO IS THAT THE STATE LEGISLATURE PARTISAN LEGISLATURE CAN TAKE CONTROL OF COUNTY ELECTIONS BOARDS AND THE SIDE THAT SOME VOTES DON'T COUNT AND SOME VOTES COUNT.

THAT'S PRETTY DANGEROUS.

>> YEAH, THAT'S THE DANGER.

AS FAR AS SETTING ASIDE A COMMISSION.

MY CONCERN IS THAT THAT ALSO WOULD BE PARTISAN.

TIM, WHAT GOOD WOULD IT REALLY DO?

>> THERE WILL BE SOME CONCERN WITH THAT SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE SOME VETTING, BUT FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND JUST BY READING THE BILL THE CRITERIA IS THAT ONE, YOU HAVE TO BE A REGISTERED VOTER, YOU CANNOT HAVE DONATED MORE THAN $2000 TOWARDS A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN.

AND YOU CANNOT HAVE HELD A POLITICAL OFFICE BEFORE OR WORKED AS A TYPE OF CONSULTANT, SO I THINK THAT THE THE BILL HAS SOME CRITERIA IN THERE TO TRY TO LIMIT PARTISAN - YOU ALSO CANNOT HAVE ATTACKED A GOVERNMENTAL FACILITY, BUILDING.

SO NO INSURRECTION IS GOING TO BE A PART OF THIS COMMISSION.

BUT THERE IS A CONCERN THERE, BUT I THINK THAT - I DON'T THINK THAT THIS BILL WILL EVEN TAKE PLACE BECAUSE SENATOR PHIL BERGER IS SO AGAINST IT AND I KNOW THAT I READ SOMEWHERE THAT HE SAID HE'S GOING TO BE MORE TRANSPARENT ABOUT YOU KNOW THE REDISTRICTING AND THAT TYPE OF THING, BUT I JUST DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS GOING TO BECOME A REFERENDUM FOR VOTERS TO VOTE ON IN 2 YEARS.

>> WELL WE WILL SEE HOW THINGS PLAY OUT.

BUT I DO WANT TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON ONE MORE ITEM, NORTH CAROLINA'S NAACP CHAPTER IS PART OF A LAWSUIT AGAINST ALAMANCE COUNTY LEADERS OVER A CONFEDERATE MONUMENT.

THE MONUMENT BECAME THE SITE OF FIERCE PROTESTS LAST YEAR.

THE LAWSUIT NAMES MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS AS DEFENDANTS AND IT SAYS THE CENTURY-OLD MONUMENT REPRESENTS RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, AND THE SECURITY IT REQUIRES IS A WASTE OF TAXPAYER MONEY.

THE DOLLAR FIGURE THAT I READ ATTACHED TO THIS LAWSUIT IS OVER $700,000 SPENT IN 2020 TO PROTECT THIS MONUMENT.

BUT WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IS THE 2015 LAW THAT IS IN PLACE AND THAT IS THE ITEM THAT THOSE WHO ARE PROTECTING THESE MONUMENTS GO BACK TO YOU TO SAY 'LISTEN, IT'S THE LAW THAT THESE 'ARTIFACTS OR THE STATUES OF REMEMBERANCE NEED TO BE PROTECTED AND AND MUST REMAIN IN PLACE.'

>> WELL, THE THING OF IT IS YOU HAVE THAT LAW BUT PEOPLE POINTING OUT THAT THIS IS A REMEMBRANCE OF WHAT CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS AND A WAR THE UNION WON.

THERE ARE NO REMEMBERANCES OF THAT, AND THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW THIS IS IN FRONT OF A COURT HOUSE.

WOULDN'T THIS BE BETTER TO BE IN A CONFEDERATE CEMETERY, OR SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE THE LAW SAYS IT HAS TO BE IN PLACE OF EQUAL PROMINENCE AND REMEMBRANCE, AND YOU HAVE PEOPLE OF ALL RACES GOING TO A COURT HOUSE FOR FAIR JUSTICE, AND THEY'RE SAYING THIS REALLY SENDS A BAD SIGN AND THEY SAY IT IS A MATTER OF PUBLIC SAFETY BECAUSE THERE'VE BEEN SO MANY DEMONSTRATIONS.

REMEMBER THAT WAS THE SITE OF A FAIRLY NOTORIOUS ONE, WHERE PEOPLE WERE MARCHING AND THERE WAS GAS AND PEPPER SPRAY AND THINGS LIKE THAT IN THE CROWD.

SO I DO BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT.

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU'RE REMEMBERING AND WOULD THIS BE BETTER OFF IF IT'S GOING TO SERVE ALL OF THE PUBLIC IN A PLACE LIKE A CEMETERY.

>> TIM, I WONDER AS FAR AS SYMBOLS OF REMEMBRANCE AND THE LOCATION OF THESE SYMBOLS.

THE EFFORT MIGHT BE THEN TO 'WELL LET'S GO FIND ANOTHER 'PROMINENT PLACE WHERE WE CAN REMEMBER THIS PART OF OUR HISTORY,' IT'S INDEED IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER OUR HERE HISTORY IN FULL, BUT ALSO TO TO REMEMBER IT RIGHTLY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT ALWAYS HAS TO BE PUT IN CONTEXT, YOU KNOW IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THAT, AND JUST TO MARY'S POINT IT'S GOING TO BE A COURTHOUSE WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE GATHERING AND USING, THERE'S A LOT OF SENSITIVITY THERE AND IT'S GOING TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AND SO, I THINK WE'RE IN A NEW DAY WITH THE AFTERMATH OF GEORGE FLOYD THAT THAT NEEDS TO BE A CONSIDERATION THAT WE NEED, TO BE MORE RACIALLY AWARE AND RACIALLY SENSITIVE TO HOW OTHER PEOPLE ARE FEELING.

I DO REALIZE THAT I SEE ALL THE TIME ON THE SIDE OF HIGHWAYS, THE CONFEDERATE FLAG STILL WAVING ON PRIVATE PROPERTY.

SO I THINK WE'RE STILL ALWAYS GOING TO BE BOMBARDED WITH BOTH FRINGE FOLKS THAT STILL WANT TO REPRESENT THIS PART OF HISTORY AND STILL DISPLAY IT PUBLICLY BUT IN A PRIVATE WAY.

IT'S JUST GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE.

RIGHT NOW NORTH CAROLINA STILL HAS 153 SYMBOLS OF THE CONFEDERACY AND ONLY 59 OR SO HAVE BEEN TAKEN DOWN EITHER FORCEFULLY OR BY A GOVERNING BODY.

>> WELL, IT'S TIME TO DO SOMETHING TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION, THE FEELINGS, AND THE FACTS FOR ALL PEOPLE, AND BOTH OF YOU ARE ALWAYS ALWAYS HERE TO SHARE YOUR FACTS, AND YOUR EXPERTISE AND YOUR PROFESSIONALISM SO I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU.

THANKS ONCE AGAIN TO MARY C. CURTIS AND TIM PULLIAM FOR JOINING US.

IF YOU WANT TO REACH US ON TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM JUST USE THE HASHTAG NCBLACKISSUES.

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I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

♪ >> QUALITY PUBLIC TELEVISION IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS OF VIEWERS LIKE YOU WHO INVITE YOU TO JOIN THEM IN SUPPORTING PBSNC.