- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, the rates of suicide among black youth are rising, but behind every statistic is a story.

In part two of this two-part series, we sit down with a licensed psychotherapist and suicide attempt survivor who shares her journey from struggling in silence as a teenager to thriving as a mental health advocate today.

Coming up next, stay with us.

- Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBSNC.

(upbeat music) ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

Last week, we examined the rising rates of suicide among black youth, discussed the policies, the research, and the urgent call to action.

Today, we sit down with someone who has lived on both sides of this crisis.

Today's guest, Raven Gibbs, is a licensed psychotherapist, an author, trauma expert, and a suicide attempt survivor.

Diagnosed with anxiety, depression, and later bipolar II disorder as a teenager, Raven knows what it means to fight for your life, and she also knows what healing looks like.

I wanna welcome you to the show.

- Thank you so much for having me.

- Of course.

I do wanna make a disclaimer, however, before we begin tonight's conversation, we want to acknowledge that we'll be discussing suicide and mental health challenges.

This topic may be difficult or triggering for some viewers.

Our goal is to inform and encourage open dialogue, not to provide medical advice.

And if you or someone you know is struggling, please know that support is available.

You can call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at any time.

Well, Raven, I do wanna thank you for being here, for sharing your story.

I know you've done so before on other platforms and on social media in particular, but I'd love for you to start by sharing your journey as a teenager and receiving your diagnosis.

- When I first received my diagnosis, it was absolutely terrifying.

I felt like I was broken.

I felt like there was something wrong with me.

I remember getting the diagnosis and not understanding or having the language to really articulate how I felt.

So all I could do was cry.

- How old were you?

- I was 14 when I was first diagnosed with anxiety and depression.

And I was 22 when I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

- And so at 14, what were some of the signs you maybe were exhibiting or things that you were feeling?

- There were times, and I remember this clearly, I would walk into my mom's room and feel like, or say to her, "No one loves me.

No one cares for me.

Why am I here?"

Just questioning my purpose in all honesty.

It was tough to, again, articulate.

I just knew I was having difficulty being here despite how much I had accomplished, despite how much I was doing in my community and with my friend groups.

It just felt very isolating.

The lows were very low to the point where I felt like I didn't need to be here anymore.

And my first moments of identifying what was bipolar disorder, the highs, I would go days without sleep.

I would be super creative, super energetic, but I wasn't getting my sleep.

I wasn't taking care of myself in the way that I should.

So there were patterns that were able to be recognized by others, but it's really difficult to hold a mirror to yourself and say, "This is what's happening.

This is what's wrong with me."

- 'Cause for all points and purposes, you were a pretty popular girl, had friends, you dancer, like on the outside, it appeared all was well and you had so much going for you, which you did and still do.

- Absolutely.

- But inside is where you were feeling all the, was it pressure necessarily?

'Cause in our part one, right, Dr.

Richardson talked about anxiety being one of the leading factors.

And so I know that anxiety was one of the diagnosis.

Is that kind of part of what you were feeling as well?

- Yes, the pressure to be and the pressure to do instead of just allowing yourself to experience life as it is.

There was pressure to, I'm a first generation college student.

And so to excel in good, good grades and bring them back home was part of my, that was my duty.

And I also had a little brother who's almost 16 years younger than me.

So to also take care of him and make sure that he was okay while my parents, they're military, while they served in the military.

So to take care of not just myself, but take care of someone else while also getting good grades, while also dancing, cheering, being a part of different groups like HIV/AIDS peer educator, just always doing something and never really taking the time to-- - Breathe.

- Breathe, yeah.

- In the journey of getting diagnosed, did you find it difficult to find the right provider to get diagnosed?

What did that look like?

And being a black young girl, do you think that played a factor in any barriers that may have occurred?

- Absolutely.

I have so many stories of feeling like I was dismissed.

I remember on one occasion, I had been feeling suicidal.

And so I contacted a provider and she just kept saying to me, "You're a danger to yourself.

"You're a danger to yourself."

And she called the police.

And I remember saying, "I'm not a danger to myself.

"I just need help.

"And I know I need help."

And just having those words said to me over and over again and not being able to really express myself or express my needs without being shut down is what led to me being hospitalized for the first time without my parents being there, without my brothers being there.

It was terrifying.

- And is that at 14 or earlier than that?

- This was, I don't remember how old I was.

I was in my teens though.

It was before the, it was when I was going to get the bipolar diagnosis.

- When was your first attempt at taking your own life?

- My first attempt at taking my own life happened right in between the transition between high school and college.

I was 18 years old and I tried to take a bunch of pills just so that I could end that pain.

It wasn't so much that I hated my life.

It wasn't that I didn't appreciate the things that were happening in my life.

It was just, I needed the pain to stop.

I needed the voices to quiet themselves and allow me space to be myself again.

- Yeah.

Leading, if you can think back, leading up to the days, hours, minutes right beforehand, was there anything that anyone could have said to you in those moments to change that action?

- Unfortunately, no, I don't think so.

I had set in my mind that I didn't need to be here, that I was a burden to others and that it just, my life didn't matter.

- Well, I'm glad you're here.

- I'm glad to be here.

- I'm glad you're here and I'm glad, you know, that wasn't your story.

Let's talk about after that.

- Okay.

- Right?

So it wasn't successful.

Were you grateful that it wasn't successful?

- I'm extremely grateful and I will get a little emotional just because I know how much I mean to my family and how much it would have hurt them.

And outside of my family, I always say this to myself whenever I do feel low, the mission is greater than this moment.

So I know that my story is going to heal others.

I know that my story has healed others.

And if I'm not here to tell my story, that means another person is at risk of, you know, likely taking their life or making attempts to take their life.

So the mission is greater than this moment.

And I have to keep telling myself that.

- I love that.

When your family learned of what had happened, what you attempted, how did they react?

And did their reaction sway you in any way?

You know, 'cause sometimes it's hard when you hear of a loved one going through a thing and we don't always think about that person.

We think, oh my God, I almost lost her, you know, my daughter, but how was the reaction and how did you go forward?

- I can only imagine the fear that my mother had when she heard that her daughter was in the hospital due to a suicide attempt.

I remember my big brother was the first person to get to the hospital with me.

And I just remember him, I've never seen my big brother cry.

I've never seen him fall apart in the way that he fell apart that day.

And he embraced me and he let me know that he's so glad that I'm here.

And it meant so much to me to know that somebody, somewhere I did matter.

And no matter what the voice in my head was telling me that I didn't, there was still someone here, even if it's just one, that one person wanted me here, that one person valued space with me, time with me, love shared between us.

And it was eye opening in that moment just to be able to see my loved ones come together and really, it started a conversation as well, I didn't know my grandmother had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

I didn't know my mother had been diagnosed.

So it was one of those things, I stopped feeling so alone in what I was experiencing.

And though I still didn't have the words to articulate exactly what I was experiencing, somebody else has gone through it too, and somebody that I love, and I can see that they have overcome different things, I can overcome them too.

- Well, and I think this is why it's so important, like you said, the mission is the greater part of this journey is because we got to talk about it.

- Absolutely.

- And I don't know if it's a black family thing, but we do know that in the black family, we don't talk or we have not historically talked a lot about these things.

So the fact that your mother and your grandmother, and you didn't know, right?

Would that have changed anything though, if you had known?

I mean, I know hindsight's 20/20, but do you think it would have?

- It definitely would have made me feel less alone because the one thing that depression does, the lowest of lows does, is tell you that you're the only one experiencing this.

You're in this by yourself.

No one knows what you're going through.

No one cares what you're going through.

I think knowing could have stopped me, maybe, I don't know, this is all hindsight, this is 20/20, we don't really know, but I think that it would have stopped me from acting on the attempt just because I know someone else has gone through it and I know that they lived through it as well.

- Yeah.

Well, and today, you're a licensed psychotherapist.

- Yes.

- So let's talk about the journey of getting there.

What made you make that decision?

I mean, I think I kind of know why, but did you feel like this is where I have to be and this is what I need to do?

- Absolutely.

The other thing that I say to myself is turning pain into purpose.

And I love that now I can use my story to help heal others and help them transition their lives into something more beautiful than what they already have.

The journey towards becoming licensed was not easy just because there's so many different triggers and things that will come up, especially when we're discussing the lows of depression, the irritability that comes with it, the anxiety that you might experience.

It's very triggering, but I know that my story has, like I said earlier, helped others and that's what I do it for.

- I know on social media, you share a lot of content from both sides of the couch, which I think is a wonderfully unique perspective because I think it does matter when your therapist says, "I understand because of the lived experiences."

It's no longer somebody just talking you through something, but they're walking you with you because they understand that journey.

What kinds of, I guess, approaches do you take that might be unique because you have experienced a lot of these things that your patients may be experiencing as well?

- I definitely take a person-centered approach.

I believe that every person is different.

How their symptoms present themselves is gonna be different, so you have to be flexible and adaptable to what they're going through and what they might be sharing with you.

So that's the first thing.

The second thing is, because I have a background in dance and in the arts, I also employ some of that into the work that I do just because I think that the arts are healing and I think that it is the most beautiful way that you can express yourself when you don't necessarily have the words to say, "This hurts me," or, "I am feeling anxious."

You can color, you can make music, you can dance.

There are so many different avenues that you can go that would help aid you in expressing exactly how you feel.

- What does suicide ideation actually sound like or look like?

Therapy session or maybe even with a parent?

- So it can look like and sound like a lot of different things.

For me, it was, "I'm just tired."

I've also heard, "I feel like a burden."

I've been in that position where I felt like a burden and no one wants me here.

I've also heard, "No one wants me here."

But the main one that I hear is, "I'm tired."

And they can't explain the tired feelings.

It's just, "I'm tired, I'm kind of checked out."

But what I do in my therapy office is I ask directly, "Do you have feelings that you would be better off dead?

Have you ever woke up and wished that you were dead?

Is life too hard for you right now?"

I think asking the direct questions instead of kind of going around the bush and trying to figure things out from there, it really helps because you're not planting a seed when you ask these questions.

You're actually coming up with a plan to, "Let's stay here.

Let me better understand exactly what it is that's going on with you so that we can shift into a different direction."

- I think you make a good point.

I think in turn, and I'll speak from my parental perspective, I think we think sometimes it is planting a seed, right?

I don't want to say this because if they're not thinking this, then I don't want to give them that idea.

But what you're saying is just be direct.

'Cause if it's not the case, then they'll say, "Well, what if they say no and it still is the case?"

If you're concerned with the, "I'm tired and no one wants me here," but yet you ask directly and you're still getting a no, that that's not the case, what do you do then?

- I'm very mindful of what looks different, right?

If I notice, for example, I have nieces, I don't have any children, but if I notice they're not eating like how they normally would, they're not sleeping how they normally would, they're lethargic or they're up maybe too much.

Just noticing the differences can help you in understanding a little bit better what's going on with your child or children that, again, may not be able to articulate exactly what it is they're feeling.

- When a child gets a diagnosis, a lot of times they take on that identity, right?

It's like, "I am this now."

How do you help a child see that they are not necessarily their diagnosis, it's just something that they're working through or walking through, but that's not defining them?

- Yeah, diagnosing and a diagnosis is information, not identity.

And I think the best way that I can put this is every article of clothing we have has a care label in it.

It tells you exactly what to do, don't bleach, hot water, whatever the case may be, it tells you exactly how to care for that article of clothing.

Think of your diagnosis like that care label.

It's telling you how to take care of you, how I need to talk to you, how I need to work with you, what needs to happen so that you can receive the best care instead of letting it be your identity.

It's just a label that's telling you what to do moving forward.

- I love that, how do I care?

Now I know as being equipped with the knowledge.

- Absolutely.

- What if we have a teen, a youth, that refuses to go to therapy?

I don't know, refuse seems harsh 'cause they're not an adult, you're gonna do what I say kind of approach.

But what if they go and they don't talk, they're not cooperative, or they really just don't want to go?

How do you break that barrier?

How do you penetrate that stubbornness, I guess?

- I think Audre Lorde said it best, without community there's no liberation.

I think that embracing, there no, okay maybe this doesn't work for you because initially therapy didn't work for me.

It just wasn't one of those things where I felt comfortable in sharing my story because I didn't know how to share my story.

But dance did it.

I leaned into the arts and allowed myself to feel all that I felt and express it in that way.

And through dance I was able to build community.

So it's going back to that community piece.

And I know not everyone is going to have a strong community of 10, 20 people or anything like that.

But all you need, like I said earlier, is that one.

If you can connect with another person, that person that you can share anything with, that you can trust with all of the information that you choose to share, that's really all you need, creating community.

- I like to say I have a good circles of aunties for my kids.

I don't have any sisters.

But I feel like I've built a really strong friendship group and I'm so grateful.

So often they're like, do you want me to talk to Ellie?

Do you, we'll go have lunch.

And I'm grateful for that because while we do have, I think, great communication, to your point, there are things that she just may not feel comfortable sharing in this moment.

And she's been able to kind of know that she has other moms, right?

And other women that she can look up to and talk to.

Before we went on, we were talking about kind of the idea of suicide-proofing your home.

In part one, we didn't get to touch on that.

But if we do think that our child or children in our lives are exhibiting these behaviors or warning signs, one approach is to suicide-proof your home.

You said your brother did that for you.

- My big brother did do that for me and I so appreciate him for it.

He was actually the one to recognize my symptoms before anyone else.

And we share a closeness.

And from that, he noticed some signs.

And from there, he removed guns from the home.

He removed pills from the home.

Even things like bleach, whatever I might be able to ingest that would hurt me, they were removed from the home.

Knives as well.

Just anything that I could use to hurt myself, it was removed.

Even if it was temporarily, it was just one of those things he was like, "I love you, I want you here.

"I'm going to make sure that this space is a safe space, "not just emotionally, but physically, "for you to come and enter and be "and do all the things that you want to do, "except for hurt yourself."

- Yeah, yeah.

If you could go back and, I mean, I'm sure you've, you've acknowledged your 14-year-old self and maybe years beyond that.

If you could go back and tell yourself something in that moment, I think you said you were 18, right?

Transitioning from college to high school.

Is there anything you could have told yourself back then?

- You've gotta stay.

You've got so much work to do.

There are so many people counting on you, and you're counting on yourself because you're going to change lives, you're going to change the world.

Stay, I need you here.

And I've been saying this since I was 18, but yes, your mission is greater than this moment.

Moments pass, feelings aren't forever, and feelings certainly aren't facts.

Stay.

- Stay.

If we have a viewer, a child, or a parent of a child who may be experiencing suicidal ideologies, where do they start?

What's one thing that they can do to start either acknowledging or the healing process?

- Have the conversation.

It may seem difficult, and I know I've spoken to a lot of parents that just aren't ready for that conversation.

It's tough, it's heavy, but have the conversation.

It's worth it.

The child feels heard.

You feel, well, the child feels heard and seen.

You can feel closer to your child in having that conversation, and those barriers are broken.

I think a lot of times in, I can only speak to black families because that's where I come from, but a lot of times these conversations aren't happening.

It's just us surviving instead of speaking.

It needs to happen.

Like I said earlier, had I known that my grandmother, who I love to pieces, and my mother, who is just my heart, my stronghold, if I had known that they were experiencing or had experienced what I had gone through, it would have changed my perspective quite a bit, and I know it does get better, as cliche as that sounds.

There are living, breathing testimonies that it does get better, so have the conversation so that everyone has experienced anxiety or some level of depression in their lifetime.

Let them know that they're not alone in this.

- Maybe about a minute left, a minute and a half.

You still, I'm trying to find the right words, are diagnosed with bipolar II.

What does that look like as an adult for you today?

- As an adult, it looks like more intentional care.

Instead of being passive about self-care and saying, oh, I'll do it self-care Sunday or something like that, I have an alarm set for 9:15 every night, go practice self-care and take your medication.

It's also taking my medication regularly, and as prescribed.

It's holding myself accountable and going to my therapist and my psychiatrist and telling the truth about how I'm feeling, and also leaning into my community.

My community is everything.

I have such a solid rock in my brothers, my mom, my dad, and I know not everyone is fortunate enough to have that, but if you can find that one, it makes such a difference.

It really does.

- Raven Gibbs, thank you so much.

I appreciate you sharing your story.

- Thank you for having me.

- Of course, and I want to remind you again, if you or someone you know needs help or information, the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is available by calling or texting 988.

There's also an online chat at 988lifeline.org.

Thank you for watching today.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) ♪ - Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBSNC.