- "Shaped by Sound" Combines performance and conversation to capture the depth of the North Carolina music scene.

Shirlette Ammons is a film producer, a poet, and a hip hop artist from Durham, North Carolina.

Within Shirlette's music, themes of identity and perception are put front and center, contemplating the duality of how do we see and how are we seen.

Today on the "Shaped by Sound Podcast," we're in conversation with hip hop artist, Shirlette Ammons.

Shirlette Ammons from Durham, North Carolina.

Is that right?

- Durham, by way of Eastern North Carolina.

I've been in Durham for a while, but I was born and raised in Beautancus, North Carolina, which is Duplin County.

- Okay.

- So, always own Eastern North Carolina as my home place.

- Hmm.

Well, thank you for being on the show.

- Oh, glad to be here.

Thank you for having me.

This is exciting, appreciate it.

- Oh, we're excited to have you.

- Thank you.

- And so, yeah, so you're from Eastern North Carolina, you're from Beautancus.

- [Shirlette] Yep.

- What's that like?

Can you explain it to us for a little bit?

- It's country, it's rural.

If you blink, you miss the entire thing.

Most folks know Mount Olive, especially people in North Carolina.

If you say Mount Olive, Mt.

Olive Pickles, people are familiar.

So Beautancus is a little township right below Mount Olive.

But if, you know, wanna go to town and wanna go to like the department store or whatever, you go to Mount Olive.

But Beautancus is quite rural.

It's known for poultry plant.

There's a big poultry plant down there, a lot of farming, and the pickle plant.

But it's really remote, really quiet.

It's a beautiful place to grow up, scenically.

Yeah, it's just a lovely place.

I'm glad to have my roots there.

- Yeah, can you talk to us a little bit about what it was like to grow up in Eastern North Carolina?

- Sure.

- Well, my mom has 12 brothers and sisters, or had.

Some have passed on.

But total 13 aunts, uncles, mama, and we all essentially grew up in one house.

And so I have a lot of cousins that are more like siblings that I grew up with, and I have a twin sister, identical twin.

So I grew up surrounded by literally a lot of human beings, but also just in terms of that Eastern North Carolina rural aesthetic.

Just the quietude and how that insights, imagination, and creativity just 'cause you have all this open area just to look out on, and there's nothing except earth.

And so it helps inspire your creativity.

So I was given a lot license.

Well, one, you had to play outside.

You just had to be outside all day if you were a kid.

But so much license to just be creative and imaginative.

Grew up, you know, singing in the church choir and all that quintessential Black Southern stuff.

So, yeah, I really do credit all that for the person I am creatively.

Just that the isolated, beautiful, loud solitude that is just the country.

- Hmm.

And so you said there was 13 of you all living together.

- At times, more than that, 'cause that was just my mama's siblings.

- Yeah.

- But there was also the cousins.

I had the cousins in, and then I had the transient cousins who were in and out and popping out every now and then and, you know, spending the night on weekends or whatever, the kids who were staying over.

Yeah, we had a housefull.

- So were y'all really close then?

I mean, beyond just the proximity where, as far as like your relationship to each other, were you really close?

- Absolutely.

Still are, actually.

- Yeah.

- And most of my family's still in Eastern North Carolina.

And if not in Eastern North Carolina, somewhere in North Carolina.

- And you were talking a little bit about sort of the loudness of just Eastern North Carolina.

Can you talk about that a bit?

'Cause it's so interesting.

- Well, I think, you know... Where are you from?

- I'm from Greensboro.

- Okay.

A lot of people think the country is quiet, but there's so much sound, just predominantly natural sound.

Just all the creatures that, you know, speak at all hours of the day and night.

But then there's just all the humans that we're constantly around and all the fellowship of church or, you know, going up in a house with that many folks in it.

There's always... You know, it's always boisterous.

So, you know, I don't know the city experience directly.

You know, I've lived in Durham.

I guess that's as close to a city as I know.

But you still have to carve out solitude and quiet time if you want your alone time in the country because, you know, there are other types of loudness around, I guess.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- It's so interesting to me that you have to try and carve out time alone when it seems like there's so much space to be alone.

- Yeah.

And I think that...

I think part of that is about your personal constitution.

I mean, I think, over time, especially as a writer, I've learned how to find that time even in spaces that are full of people.

And I think that's kind of part of what I've had to learn growing up.

'Cause although we were in the country, there was always people around.

[clears throat] Excuse me.

So, yeah, I really made the effort to, you know, I have cultivated that ability over the years, you know, as an artist and as a writer, I really like writing in the company of people but by somehow isolating myself in that company.

I like a boisterous atmosphere, but I like to be interior at the same time.

- Yeah, that sounds so interesting.

I'd love to maybe follow up with you on that, because how did that start?

Like, was there a moment where you were like, "Oh, I'm getting all this creative energy, but I just need to go somewhere and just sit and just write"?

Like, how did that start for you as far as your songwriting in those early days?

- That's a good question 'cause I didn't start with songwriting.

I started as a poet.

- Oh, wow.

- I started writing poetry first.

I have two collections of poetry out in the world that are probably somebody's coaster right now.

You know, only poets buy poetry.

Everybody knows that.

So I'm not offended, is what I'm saying.

But I guess I start...

I mean, growing up in the church and, you know, you're singing all these, you learn this like the cadence and percussiveness of the gospel, so I felt like I was always inherently rhythmic.

But I started writing, you know, songs and, like, just making up little diddies and rhymes as a kid.

And then got into the spoken word scene in my early 20s and really just found comfort and belonging in that.

And also, I was just starting to come into myself also in terms of my sexual identity and orientation.

So just...

So that language I was learning and was kind of helping me work through the things that were otherwise hard to talk about.

- Hmm.

- So poetry gave me a language, at times, a coded language, to speak about my truths that I was coming into.

- [James] Yeah.

- And it was really supportive, you know?

It was predominantly like just the Black weirdos, you know?

Which I completely belonged, go figure.

And so just, like, that little environment just nurtured and cultivated and helped me hone my voice.

And then I learned how to incorporate what I consider the unique language of my people in Eastern North Carolina where I come from.

And that seemed to be celebrated in these circles.

Whereas in certain other circles, not so much.

The creativity of merging Black, queer, Southern, rural, and then even more the subgenre of Eastern North Carolina, it just seemed to work and help me find my own unique expression.

- Hmm.

Can you talk to me a little bit about...

It seems like you're putting together like a patchwork quilt of sort.

- [Shirlette] Yep.

- In the early days, how was that process for you?

Kind of, you said that you were starting to express yourself more in your poetry and finding this as a creative outlet to really discover who you are and start to explain that to the world.

- Right.

- As you're putting together other pieces of the patchwork, what was that like?

What was that experience like for you?

- Well, it was...

I guess, experimental...

I don't want it to sound like as just flippant 'cause I think that can be misconstrued.

But it really was, like, just not, just 'cause I didn't trust anything, I could try everything.

I didn't know any better.

So, like, it was just this open palette.

So, also, you know, I didn't grow up with a lot of different variations in the music I listened to or, you know, what I read.

It was like, I grew up really Christian, so I didn't really venture a lot in terms of what I was receiving artistically.

I tell people all the time, I didn't hear Bob Marley or go to Taco Bell till I was in college.

So I was like, "Whoa, that's wild."

But also coming to Raleigh is where, I came of age in Raleigh.

And going to places like Kings and hearing rock bands.

I was like, "Whoa, man, why do white kids get to do this?"

And I was just mad 'cause I was like, you know, I knew the power of gospel music, I knew the power of, like, country soul music and blues and, you know, R&B that I could listen to on the radio.

In Eastern North Carolina, we weren't getting MTV and we didn't have cable, so we stay up late night and watch Friday night videos, which was just a glitch in time.

You know, it's like, kind of like, "Did I really see that?

Did I really see Eric B.

& Rakim through microphone [indistinct] or was I just dreaming?"

You know?

- Yeah.

- So all that like to just having one foot in, but not, like, being necessarily always available to you made me covet it more and just cherish it whenever I could get it.

And also, I think it just gave...

It was like, "If these little, you know, angsty white kids can do it, or these cats in Brooklyn can do it, why can't I?"

And, you know?

And then, of course, over time, hip hop became more global when we gotta see folks coming outta the South that really has something to say and really affected the culture.

And same with the spoken word movement, all that stuff kind of merged together and it became, you know, easier for us to actually participate.

And it really mattered to be supported in that effort.

- It's fascinating, by the way, and it seems like there's a transitional element here where you're in Eastern North Carolina and a bit sort of in this bubble.

And then stepping out of that and coming into the triangle maybe and starting to see all these new things.

And internalizing them and starting to maybe process.

- Right.

- What was that like as far as like where you are as an artist?

Like, how are you starting to see those things and then start making them for yourself?

- Yeah.

Yeah.

Man, I'm 50, so you don't have to say it.

- You don't look 50 at all.

Oh my gosh.

[both laughing] - No, but I was going of age in like the '90s in Raleigh, which had a really, really cool and dope indie rock scene mainly.

So I was like the one of the few Black kids that was, like, popping into these rock shows and was, like, blown away.

So that was like, I could name Cherry Valance, like, Dynamite Brothers, like, all these cool cats and then you go to Kings.

And I see Sharon Jones and Adapt Kings for the first time and Melt-Banana.

And I'm like, "What is this?"

- Yeah.

- And it was just so exciting.

And then, you know, having this kinda one way I had known to do it.

Like, it had to have this particular gospel cadence or whatever, but then understanding that, "Oh, all this comes from the same source.

All this is like a byproduct of Black music.

All this is blues, all this is gospel."

- Hmm.

- And then expanding my idea of gospel to just mean simply, are you telling the truth?

And, like, letting that be my own kind of testament, if you will.

Or, you know, the book by which I live.

So, yeah, I started to kind of mail back these, like, really hard to find rules about what my expression should look like based on my own discovery of these different places, via these different places I was starting to move in.

And then also my self reflection about who I was becoming and who I was admitting I was becoming to myself.

Like, the queerness, you know, the odd, you know, the preference for rock music over, you know, gospel music or, you know?

That started to kind of just, like, lend its own freedom to me.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- That's...

It seems like you were experiencing so much in just like a very small amount of time.

- [Shirlette] Yeah.

- [James] That must have been so liberating though, in ways, but maybe not so much in others.

- Liberating, scary.

Sometimes those things are synonymous.

I mean, like, you know?

What's letting... How you letting go is the main thing.

How you... And also, the irony is, I think that's the thing you constantly, as a artist, if you're, like, at our best, it's a question that we're constantly revisiting.

You don't want ever just sit in the walls of, "Oh, I figured it out," you know?

- [James] Right.

- It's a constant, constant churning, I think.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- When do you start, like, when do you start translating your poetry into hip hop?

- Hmm.

Well, I'm a purist.

I like, either I'm writing for the page or I'm writing for the mic.

I don't believe, I don't inherently think a poem is a song or a song is a poem.

I think a song is a song and a poem is a poem, and I think there are reasons that these genres have their elements.

And I'm not saying that to say at all that, you know, they don't overlap in meaningful ways.

But for me... [clears throat] Excuse me.

For me, whenever I started intentionally writing poetry, it was when the music was removed.

The poetry simply didn't have music.

And I really wanted it to work on the page, and I wanted people to hear my voice when they read it, and I wanted people to read it aloud.

So it was like all these elements 'cause it was like, "Well, if you want all this, just write a song."

- Right.

- So, started, you know, going to open mics and there were... With house bands and reading poetry or reading spoken word over beats, over live music.

And I was like, "Oh, this feels way less lonely than poetry."

You know, like, it always felt like you had to be broody to be a great poet, you had to be lonely and self-loathing or whatever, according to all the...

The history of the greats is what, that's kind of what the elements they're made of.

But music was so collaborative and, you know, it wasn't all dependent on me, you know?

So I just really just gravitated towards that interaction.

And maybe it was 'cause of like coming from this big family background too.

Like, getting into music was like, "Oh, this is just like, you know, everybody chilling at my aunt's trailer or whatever," you know?

It's like, you know, getting everybody together to make a song is way more inclusive and the process is more involved than, you know, sitting at a coffee shop and writing a poem.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- And along with that, I'm curious.

So, you said with poetry, you know, you're finding it's, again, a bit separated from your community when you're writing a song that's a little bit more inclusive.

- Right.

- Were you starting to find that as you were making more songs, that you were getting into bigger circles or new circles or ones that made you feel more comfortable?

- Yeah.

And I just mean, you know, more isolated process-wise.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

Also, you know, fortunately, being in the Triangle Area, so many different musicians of so many different genres is doing so many big, beautiful, wonderful things, and I happened to just be in community with these people.

So the idea of genre just got thrown out the window because we were all playing in each other's arrangements.

Like, my drum would play in your band or your, you know?

So, that really kind of disavowed this belief that genres are a real thing.

'Cause I'm like, if you wanna call me hip hop or whatever, and then my drummer plays in a indie rock band and my bass player is a jazz player, what do we call this?

What do you call that?

And so that's the thing that really, like, got me excited, you know, about collaborating and, you know, tapping into this community of artists in a way that really maximized the idea of we don't really need these labels in order to make something cool.

- Yeah.

And you were experiencing all that in the Triangle.

- Yeah, yeah.

- So that must have been a really interesting thing for you.

And I think for just the state too.

I think it kind of speaks to the creative scenes here, how you can grow within them.

How do you think that those were growing at the time?

- Like I mentioned, I just...

I'd gotten into the indie rock scene as the hip hop scene was popping off more so in like Greensboro and Durham, whereas Raleigh was more like, you know, the indie, the rock scene.

And I was just, like, kind of zipping between all of it and just, you know?

It's interesting, like, belonging and how you feel comfortable walking into a room.

I just did.

I really don't know.

I think I was always led by my eagerness and curiosity, so it kinda, like, made it easy for me to walk into certain rooms, which I can understand on the flip side why it was not easy for other people to walk into these rooms.

- Sure.

- But I think just come...

I came out of all of that.

Like, that's why I get kinda annoyed when people just call me hip hop because, or call the music I make hip hop.

Culturally, I am hip hop.

But in terms of the art I make, I think it's much more than that.

And I feel like I didn't answer your question, but I just kind of got on my holler.

So about just that idea of... Like, just...

I really try to uphold and maintain all of those things that were happening at that time are my core and are my source.

- Yeah.

So you were getting a little bit of everything from different scenes.

- Right, exactly.

- [James] And you were starting to grow as a songwriter- - Right.

- Versus just poetry.

- Right, right.

- That must have been really exciting.

- It was.

And it's like, thank you for asking about it 'cause I don't... You know, you don't really get a chance to reminisce on it as, or I don't, when you're in the midst of, you know, making it all the time.

So it's nice to just slow down and sit down and remember sometimes.

- Yeah, I bet.

And it's one of those things too where as we get to know you more and get to listen to your music more, it seems like you can pick those, like, not genres, but those elements of music inside of your music, right?

Like, there's times where you're just like in this funk jam and there's times where you're just like having this like a rock beat, and there's times where you're just like in a classic East Coast hip hop.

- Right.

- And it just feels like this really fluid thing that you've built.

So it's really cool to strip it back a bit and just see all that and see where it comes from.

- Yeah, yeah.

And I think that's about...

I'm a student of craft.

I'm just like a very...

I get really staunch about, you know, you know, you're not...

If you can bam a nail into a board, does that make you a carpenter?

No, it doesn't.

This is a thing that, you know, you study and you cultivate and, you know, I'm critical about it.

I'm as critical about everything I listen to and see is.

I'm that critical about my own work.

So I think that's... You know, I try to maintain... And I try to keep adding to my cauldron of knowledge about it even as it changes in ways that I don't necessarily always understand, 'cause, you know, every generation, I think, has its right to manipulate its thing for its time.

But,, yeah, I'm a student of it, I'm a critic of it, and I'm...

I really...

I'm a crafts person.

- Hmm.

Does that craft that like adhering to very, like, strict, maybe just like ways of doing things for yourself, right?

Does that help you sometimes or does that hurt you sometimes?

Do you feel like- - Yes.

- Yes as it hurts you?

- Next question.

- Yeah.

- I'm kidding.

- Do you feel like you get really, like, locked in and, you know, really try to just, I mean, hammer it down.

- Yeah.

- And does that help you or does it help you kind of figure out new things and be a little bit more artistic?

- Well, it's interesting because I think that process, like, the curtain was kind of pulled back on all that during COVID.

Whenever I was working on this last record, which I started writing demos and then...

But my process wasn't available to me.

My normal process, which is write some demos, go get with the cats in a room, and then we flesh 'em out.

Well, we couldn't get in a room together.

So I just ended up like, well, I have to finish the demos all by my lonesome in my little back room at the house.

So, you know, it just being the critical person who's just wanting to get it right 100%.

And also knowing that at my best, I don't do it all.

Because at my best, I farm it out to better cats.

The cats who really know how to do, who is a really, calling a dope bass player to play a dope baseline.

- Yeah.

- You know?

So, I had to either...

I had to figure out a way to soften and not be so hard on myself whenever I didn't have that access to other people available to me as I was trying to, like, do it all in terms of crafting the demos.

But then after that, you know, we were sending things back and forth via the internets and- - Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So is that what went... A lot of that process is what went into making "Spectacles"?

- Yep, mm-hmm.

- So did you start off with just making demos and kind of figuring out the arrangements and then saying, "Okay, I know this is a great person for this one, so I send it to them and..." - I have more time to do that.

So, normally, if I write something, somebody, you know, or in collaboration with somebody or somebody sends me a beat, like, the process of them sending it to me, me writing to it, deciding if there are any other voices that should be involved is really quick.

But this, we had time with this one.

And so that process... And that can be good or bad, just having that additional time.

- Yeah.

- Wouldn't do it that way again probably if, you know.

- Okay.

- I didn't choose a pandemic, so I guess I can't always say what I will and won't do.

But, yeah, that was a unique set of circumstances for sure.

- Yeah.

I mean, with the...

I mean, taking this sort of outside of pandemic, but just having the time.

You said you wouldn't necessarily do that again.

Why is that?

- Well, it's just like, you can overthink things.

- Yeah.

- And you can... That makes it a visceral expression kind of can get lost.

And I really like that.

I think you can fine tune things, but it'll never be perfect.

And I think that's a, you know, a fraudulent pursuit.

So, at some point, you gotta free yourself from that pursuit.

It's gonna be as good as it gets.

And then at some point, you're gonna start taking away from it if you're not careful.

- Right.

Do you think some of that rawness went into the album "Spectacles"?

- I do, I do.

But I think, you know, four versions of a song is maybe three too many.

[Shirlette laughs] - Yeah.

- So, yeah, I do.

And I worked really hard, and that's, you know, it's hard to, like, sometimes see, you can't see the forest or the trees sometimes.

Like, if you just tanker on a thing, you know, it's hard to see what the original vision was if you tank on it too long.

- Yeah.

- So just saying like, "Oh, stop."

I put it aside for like six months and it was like, "Okay, you're doing the most.

Just chill."

- Yeah.

- Sat it aside and then went back to it and could hear it again, see it with new eyes, if you will.

And, yeah.

And then it was like, "Oh, okay.

Now, why did I think this new thing that I've, you know, tooled and, you know, embellished 12 times sounds better than the original thing that was the original idea that said the thing the way it was supposed to be said the first time?"

And went back to those ideas.

Yeah.

- So you were able to kind of revisit the initial vision.

- Yep.

- I'd like to kind of touch on that for a little bit here.

So "Spectacles" came out in April of 2024.

- Right.

- What were some of the themes that you were thinking about for that record specifically?

- Well, first of all, like I mentioned, I'm an identical twin.

And if you see the record, if the album covers a picture of myself and my twin and my mom when we were like maybe two or three years old, and we're flanked on either side of my mom.

And I've always loved this photo because I don't know who is who.

And I bet... You know, I don't think my mama does either, honestly.

- Really?

- I really don't.

She'll say she changes who...

I'm like, "Mama, is that me?"

She'll say yes, but then the next time, she may not.

But we just look a lot alike in that point.

But also, the idea of being constantly gazed at, being stared at, like, metaphorically and, you know, literally.

People would stand me and my sister side by side and look for differences as kids.

And I always thought that they really didn't wanna find any, which I thought was really, like, kind of made us like a bit of a circus act in some ways.

And then the difficulties that created in us trying to figure out who are you and who am I, who am I and who are you over time.

And then on top of that, you know, the gaze of being a performer and, you know, wearing the body I wear as a queer, soft, masculine-presenting, masculine-centered Black Southern woman with this twang and who...

But then the irony is, I get on stage and want people to look at me.

- Hmm.

- So it's like, you know, it's just a whole bunch of juxtapositions that I wanted to work out through this record.

- Yeah.

I will say it's one of those things that, upon listening to the album, it is really amazing to hear you kind of talk through those layers.

- [Shirlette] Hmm.

- And sort of present them in those ways.

- Hmm.

- Hearing that you don't know if it's you or your sister on the album cover is just incredible.

- Yeah.

- And also must be sort of difficult in ways.

Right?

- Yeah.

And, you know, we... You know, we have enough of a constitution ourselves to know that you are you, I am me.

I am me, you are you.

But to get to that point, it was a certain, you know, it was a effort, you know?

And also, I'm not complaining at all.

You know, in kindergarten, I rolled with a homie, you know?

Most kindergartners came there solo.

I was good.

I had a bestie already, built in with the experience.

- Right.

- But, you know, there were always like, you know, efforts to be like, "Oh, well, the twins need to find other people to play with so you can be more social."

I'm like, "Is that really?"

Is that what makes you social?

Or, like, I don't know.

It's just like all these things that you'd have to work through just from this unique perspective that most people didn't have.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So I've heard that you've sort of described "Spectacles" as a memoir in a way.

- Mm-hmm.

- Is that accurate?

- I guess that's accurate.

I'm... At what age and what point in life do you get the privilege of writing a memoir?

I guess that's the only reason I wouldn't use that word.

What do you think?

Do you think you have to be a certain age or... - Um, I don't know.

I think it's depends on your body of work And what you've experienced.

'Cause why can't you do memoirs?

- Yeah, true.

- Right?

Like, I would love to have a memoir from me and my, you know, turning 30 years old and reflecting on my 20s- - That's cool.

- So I could read it when I was in my 50s.

- Yeah, yeah.

Actually, I ain't mad at that.

Let's go with that.

Let's go with that.

[both laughing] Yeah, I like that.

So, yeah, I guess it's a volume of a memoir.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, okay.

- And what volume would that be then?

- Lord!

That's a great question.

Well, that means I have to go back and qualify the previous ones then, the previous volumes.

It would certainly be a significant volume.

I don't...

It's like... Maybe like two.

Two or three.

- Yeah.

- Only three.

Volume of three.

- So do you think it would be sort of like your adolescence or you as a young adult or- - Yeah, I think I clock it more as like, yeah, like, certainly there's certain rites of passages I would use to, like, mark the different times.

- [James] Yeah.

- And I would have to think a bit more about that.

But one would certainly be coming out and, you know, just, like, shedding that skin of who I was supposed to be versus who I was starting to realize I truly am.

- Hmm.

And how did that kind of take place within your lyrics?

You know, how are you starting to express that, recounting that in your lyrics?

- Well, I think, you know, going back to, like, you know, the coded language that supported me through coming out, like, where I could be talking about, you know, coming out or, like, you know, crushing on this girl, but I, you know, the metaphor would be about, you know, a leaf growing or something, you know?

But now I don't need that.

And it's like that security blanket, like, the way my relationship with language has evolved such that I could tell a real story but use metaphor differently just to kind of build the image in a way that is unique to the language, the body of language that I've developed, as opposed to it being like a blanket or cloud or shield.

I can be honest and open, but still use metaphor to help decorate the story.

- Yeah.

- If that makes sense.

- Right.

So instead of metaphor being a shield, it's now more of a layer and more of a blossoming [indistinct].

- And I get to have more fun with this youth that way.

I don't have to be like, oh, shoot, do they really get why grass isn't really about grass?

Or, you know, whatever.

Or do I... Is anything lost by me owning it?

And also if the things that are lost, will I miss 'em?

Can I do without 'em?

Are they things that I need to let go of anyways?

- Yeah.

So that seems like a lot to be going through when you're in the process of making a record.

- Yeah.

Maybe people go through less, but that's what I go through.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

I wouldn't trade it though.

I mean, I'm just...

I'm oiled by it and it gets me excited.

Like, even talking about it now, I get giddy about it, you know?

- [James] Yeah.

- And it's nice to be able to say that, "Oh, I actually do have a process."

Sometimes you think it's all willy-nilly when you're in the midst of it.

And somehow at the end of it, there's a thing and there's a song or there's an album.

But it really is a process.

- Yeah.

Upon revisiting your album as you were listening to it, what are you finding in it that you think is just really great that you feel like you've been able to articulate?

- Without...

So, yeah, without...

I'm not, you know, big upping myself, but I think I'm a decent writer at my best.

- I think you are too.

- Thank you.

- And that's not a big up.

I think you're absolutely right.

- I think I write good.

I think, you know, composition, not just like...

When I'm talking about writing, I'm not just talking about, you know, making the words rhyme at the end of the sentence.

The composition of a thing and felt... And at the end of it, did I tell the whole of that story?

And if I can say, "Yep, I feel confident that I did," then I think I did write by the craft and by the work and by the story I'm trying to tell.

At the very least, I've done well.

- So you feel really confident in what you put out there?

- I do.

I wouldn't do it different, maybe.

I probably would.

No.

- Is that different for you from other, like, other things that you've made?

- Yes.

Yeah, there's some stuff I can't even.

I'm like, "How do I get this of Spotify?"

- But, you know, I mean, you've done work with so many people and so many collaborators.

It seems like to have that leave Spotify would just be sort of bummer.

- Yeah, I'm just... Hey, hopefully somebody digs it.

'Cause I do believe at some point, it ain't yours no more.

You put it out in the world, you just don't... That's the goal, right?

For it to be lent to people to do what they will with it, do their worst, if you will.

But hopefully, you know, at the very least, I hope people are critical about it.

I don't...

I get no value in somebody saying "I like that" or "I don't like that."

Like, it just... You know, why?

Why do you or don't you, and what can I as an artist take away from it in order to grow my thing?

- Yeah.

Beyond the criticism side of it, I'm interested to know what do you want people to take away from the record?

- I talk about this a lot, this idea of wealth and redefining wealth for ourselves.

And this poem by Nikki Giovanni called "Nikki-Rosa."

And she has this stanza where she says, "I hope no white person ever has calls to write about me because they never understand that Black love is Black wealth."

And I think at the core of spectacle is the word spectacular are somewhere in there.

And so, at the top of both sides of the record, there's a lot of really smart Black people that I called on to ask them, "What does it mean to be a spectacle?"

Some Black chef, Black MacArthur genius, Black queer performance poet, my sister, my niece, Black drag queen, Black scholars.

And the way they talk about what that word means is really about, at its core, about Black wealth, to me, about the ways we have defined wealth in order to survive.

So I think that's the thing I want people to know, like, this work, like, all my work is a survival mechanism.

It's the way I navigate my route in this world that ain't always, you know, comfortable or easy, you know?

That's why it's work, you know?

It's not easy and it perpetuates.

I'm choosing how I'm surviving by choosing to do this, and I'm proud of that, yeah.

- Yeah.

Do you feel like you've found your Black wealth within the creation of- - I'm finding it every single day.

Every single day.

And when I revisit it and just hear nuggets of it that I can still be like, "Nailed it!"

That's cool.

Some days I hear it, I'm like, "uh," you know?

So that's the beauty.

That's why it's about that pursuit and that journey and not necessarily the arrival.

- I wanna get a little bit literal with you for a second.

- Okie-doke.

- If that's okay.

- Okay.

- 'Cause you're wearing glasses or spectacles.

I've got my spectacles on too.

And it's funny, so do you find comfort in taking them off and then sort of being able to interact with this world and seeing some of the things that you know are there but you can't see them?

- That is not literal.

[both laughing] - Well, I will say...

So I will kind of preface that with saying, I will sometimes, you know, if I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'll take my glasses because there's this not seeing that makes me comfortable.

- Yeah.

- Do you find that?

- Absolutely, yeah.

So, in that little collage at the top of side A, Fred Moten, who was one of the most brilliant poets to walk earth, says, "Shirlette, spectacles is obviously about seeing."

And it can be like, you know, it's like, "Okay, Fred, we know," but it's also, he's setting up like just, it really is about, like, what you see and what you choose to see.

Like, I can look at you and I can just see your glasses, or I could just see your five o'clock, you know?

Or I could choose to, like, really look and see other things, the little glitch in your eye or whatever, the little dot in your glasses being reflected.

So there's always a choice in what we behold.

And I do think that's, you know, I hear you saying it's literal and it's hard for me just to hear it literally- - Yeah.

- But, yeah, I do.

And there is, like...

I walk around with headphones all the time.

It's like my security blanket.

And even if I'm listening to something or not, I put 'em on sometimes just to like, just put a bubble around myself sometimes.

And it affects what I see when I do that.

Like, when I'm more exposed, it's way harder for me to focus in on things and really hone in what I wanna see.

- Yeah.

- Sometimes.

- Yeah, and it's sort of a two-faced coin for me because people have asked like, you know, "Would you ever get LASIK?"

Or, you know, I wear contacts as well.

I like wearing the glasses because, and this is gonna sound a little too heady, but I do like the idea that I have a built-in perception that is different from everybody else's.

- Right on.

I'm into that, yeah.

- And you do, obviously, when you take them off, like, you are recognizing that you are seeing something different.

- Right.

And I won't do contacts.

I'm scared to poke 'em eye.

- [James] Oh yeah, finger on the eyeball.

- Yeah, that's like crazy.

- The first times you do those, gosh, it's like torture.

- I bet so.

I've never even tried.

I've never even tried.

I won't try.

- Yeah.

It's one of those things where as, you know, 10-year-old, just trying to learn that for the first time- - Yeah.

- It's something - And then how do you normalize that... Like, at 10, just like crazy to me.

- But it's like, you get it, like, the first or second time, and all of a sudden you're like, you got it.

Your eyeball just figures it out.

- I'm gonna trust you on that.

- Yeah.

- I'm gonna trust you.

- Plus, your glasses are too cool to- - Well, yeah, if I can't see with these four eyes, I ain't meant to see it, is what I think.

[both laughing] - I wanna kind of ask you just generally, in what ways do you feel like life is spectacular?

- Wow.

I like that question.

Well, you know, I'm married four years as of a couple days ago, and it's pretty cool.

It's pretty spectacular.

- Congratulations.

- That is still unfolding and, you know, we still really, like, like each other a lot.

Like, we find each other dope, which is important.

- [James] Big part of marriage.

- Yes, I think she's dope.

I think I can speak for her.

She thinks I'm dope, I think.

- Yeah.

- Just also traveling.

I like to just go places.

Like, the world is always like, just to see.

And, you know, I don't know whether we do it intentionally or not.

The place that we start from is our thing that we compare everywhere else in the world to, and nothing's like Eastern North Carolina.

And that is spectacular to me.

I mean, I've been to big places, and it ain't like that.

- Yeah.

- And that's cool.

I mean, I think that's hella spectacular that this little bump on the earth can still, like, blow my mind the way it does.

And that I come from that and I still find it, you know, spectacular.

I think that's cool.

- Yeah.

- Music is always just like, I just participated in this compilation album called Cardinals in a Window, which was a fundraiser for our neighbors affected by Hurricane Helene.

And my homeboy, Grayson Kern, got all these musicians together to donate a song, and it ended up being 136 songs.

And me and my wife wake up in the morning and listen to a chunk daily to get through it.

- It's a lot to get through.

- And every song is dope.

- [James] Yeah.

- And then I'm like, "Man, how spectacular is that to all these things that don't sound at all the same, or just quality and sound beautiful and they all move me in different ways.

- Yeah.

- So, yeah, I still think music is mass spectacular words at their best, and people like get creative with 'em.

- [Shirlette] And that one compilation can raise all that money.

- Yeah.

- So it's like all these things that are all different can do one thing.

- Yes, that's spectacular.

- Yeah.

- And it's spectacular that we can join together.

Even sometimes, we forget that we have that ability.

And it was so simple to ask.

Turn turnaround was like maybe five days, which is amazing, you know?

So we could do hard stuff if we want to.

Sometimes we just, you know, just be hardheaded.

That's all.

[both laughing] - I wanna transition just a little bit.

So when we were working with you at the beginning of this show, we were asking you questions about the set and sort of what you imagined for your set for this show.

And you started talking to us a little bit about what it was like for you in Eastern North Carolina and also what it was like to, you know, be in your grandmother's house.

- Mm-hmm.

- Can you kind of talk to us a little bit about the thought behind what you wanted for your set and how it works into your performance?

- Well, just with the concept of this show that's like, what shapes my sound?

And I was thinking about that really.

And I weren't... And also, I was just extremely appreciative because just to be asked like, what do you want, how do you want your backdrop to look, what do you wanna be surrounded by, and have to think about that seriously.

And so, yeah, just thinking about the concept of the show and wanted to, you know, really make myself feel that in the course, in the set design.

I think I mentioned Mickalene Thomas, who, whose work I really adore.

Like, all this multi patterned stuff that they do that patterns feel conflicting, but they also feel comforting like a grandma's house.

Yeah, and just... That was the primary thing, just thinking about like, what do I need to feel?

What are the elements that have shaped this thing that I'm about to present.

That's really the foundation of the ideas.

- Do you think there was a level of juxtaposition that you wanted to play in with the set?

- Yeah, absolutely.

Also, because I'm like, I'm not just playing songs from the new record.

I'm playing songs from my catalog.

- Yeah.

- So I wanted that to be represented somehow as well.

So I didn't want it to feel pigeonholed by just this one record, this one expression.

- Yeah.

And I think it's just so interesting too 'cause we'll be hearing you play this music that normally maybe you wouldn't hear in your grandmother's house, right?

- Yeah, yeah.

Well, after a certain hour maybe.

- Okay, yeah.

- Certainly not on Sunday.

- Yeah.

- But, yeah, you're right.

Like, just content-wise, yeah, absolutely.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

But again, back to my redefining of gospel and reclaiming that word.

I might beg to differ that you would hear.

- Hmm.

And can you maybe explain a little bit?

- Well, again, I think gospel really is about your truth.

And so I think there's always...

There's certainly room for that.

- Yeah.

- I feel like there's room for that now in my family's house.

Yep.

- Well, that must feel like incredible to have that level of comfort.

- Yes, and that's the goal.

I think the goal is for all that to keep growing and expanding and not, I know it didn't begin with me, It won't end with me.

So- - Yeah.

I wanna talk about you and how you perform it just for a bit.

It feels like I've seen some things of you performing and watching you and just...

It's really incredible to kind of see you kind of channel these sort of emotions when you're playing and you're performing.

What is it like for you up there on stage when you're going through it, when you're playing?

- Well, I try to be present and I think, you know, performing songs, over time, you perform a lot.

It's easy to just kind of phone it in and go on autopilot.

So to stay connecting with what I'm saying, the emotion of what I'm saying and the story I'm telling is important, and treat the audiences if they are a part of...

There's no divide between... All of us have a role to play, I guess.

I don't wanna, you know, be dismissive and romantic and say, "Oh, we're all doing the same.

We're not playing the same role.

I'm working, you're chilling."

But the fact that we all have a role to play is extremely important.

So I think I'm thinking about how do I respect that the audience is playing their role and how do I help them play their role and how do they help me play my role to a maximum level.

- Yeah.

- So I try to make eye contact with people.

If I see people responding or reacting, I try to, you know, acknowledge that.

If I feel overwhelmed, I try to let myself feel that.

And I'm also listening to what the band is doing because I also wanna enjoy the music.

And also, you know, just be open to everybody like kind of, you know, we have a blueprint of how we do it, but if we want to like flip it or throw a wrench and, you know, stuff, allowing room for that to happen.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, so we can grow and enjoy it ourselves as we're performing it.

- Yeah.

I'm wondering too, you know, I feel like it's one thing to work collaboratively, and create a record.

If it's another thing to take what you wanna say and then say it in front of an audience of people.

- [Shirlette] Right on.

- What is that like for you?

- I appreciate you saying that.

It took me a while to learn that those are two different things.

Because if you don't see 'em as two different things and you're trying to replicate one or the other, in the wrong space, it won't work.

And that's an expensive L to take.

- Yeah.

- So expensive lesson to learn.

COVID taught me to really appreciate the, it is some somehow oddly full circle back to the, like, the isolation and solitude of writing poetry.

And then during COVID, writing this record kind of sort of in a similar solitude was kind of brought me back to the like, "Oh, there are elements of, like, writing in this isolation that I actually miss and do like.

Also, you know, there's nothing like performing in front of people.

It's just ain't nothing like it.

It's just...

The adrenaline you get.

I don't walk away from my computer.

Well, that's not true.

'cause sometimes it is more likely that I will walk away from a show just pumped and stoked than it is for me, like, working on a song for however many hours in front of my, you know, computer.

- Yeah.

- So that's an experience that, you know, you can't replicate.

And that part, you can't replicate it.

It's like every show is different.

The way people respond is different.

The one song that you thought everybody would go ham over is not necessarily the song they will go ham over on this day, at this time, you know?

Playing a song at, you know, a festival at 4:00 PM is way different than playing a song at 9:00 PM, you know, at The Pinhook or The Cradle or wherever.

So, yeah, just being aware of those nuances in order to make every experience exciting for myself.

- Yeah.

And I'm wondering too, you know, for some of these songs that seem really personal.

What's it like to put that out there in front of a group of people that you don't know?

- Well, I think the goal is that everybody's applying it to themselves personally.

- Hopefully, the more personal I am, the more likely it is that somebody can hear 'em feeling like, "Oh, I had an aunt like that."

Or "I had a that time where, you know, my cousin did this."

Or, "Oh, when's the last time I played ball with my cousins or went fishing, or, you know, like, if I'm dropping nuggets like that, then hopefully people can relate it to their own experiences as opposed to I'm being like aloof and dismissive.

I think people can feel that in the writing.

And that's maybe a personal preference.

The writing I most adore is writing that, like, kind of pierces and makes me have to deal or reckon or in some kind of way.

- And you hope that that kind of just pierces through the audience?

- Yes, absolutely.

- Yeah.

- Yep.

- I wanted to ask you a little bit, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but I wanted to ask you, how do you think that you're shaped by sound?

- Well, I'm... As a writer, I feel like you have to be an observer.

And I think the elements of being a great observer include being a great listener and being able to translate what you hear into a language that is uniquely yours.

So I'm shaped by the things that I intake and decide to interpret in my work.

I mean, like, if you could rewind everything from, like, if you could rewind the stanza of a poem to its a origin story, it's certainly shaped by the thing.

Like, going back to being from Eastern North Carolina and how all that quiet is so loud.

Just being shaped by the ability to zone in on those things that ain't necessarily, they're not handy, they're not right there.

You just have to pay extra attention.

- Hmm.

- And I feel honored honestly, that I'm aware of that and able to do that.

I think that's a skill that I try to cultivate and I try not to take advantage of.

So, yeah, I'm shaped by all the real quiet things that I have a unique ability to turn into, like, this little language to speak.

And I'm grateful for it.

I don't take it for granted at all.

- Yeah.

That's awesome.

Okay, so one of the things I wanted to chat with you as well is that beyond just being a poet and a songwriter, you're an activist.

You're also a producer.

What's it like to wear all those hats?

- Well, I think it's actually more common.

Like, maybe it's just a moment we live in for people to be, you know, multi-disciplined.

I think activist is such...

I respect what activists do.

I think, you know, it's like chicken and egg.

Like, I think maybe I'm an activist partly because of the work that the subjects I tend to approach in my work, and maybe also because of my identities.

And I use my work to advocate for people who are like me marginal, in some way.

But I don't really know how I wouldn't, how these things wouldn't work together to further the crafts that I've chosen to pursue.

Like, it just makes sense to me.

And also when people ask you to use your quote-unquote "power for good."

I think that's kind of the charge of the artist.

I think the charge of the artist is to document the moment in which they live.

- Yeah.

- And living in this era of social media and stuff, it's like, you know, we have this uncanny ability to document stuff in real time.

And I think we'd be remiss not to take advantage of that, given all the pros, cons, of social media.

That is one of the pros, I feel like.

- Yeah.

And I think so.

So you are a friend of the PBS in many ways with some of your other series that you've helped produce and some documentaries you produce as well locally, And to name a few of them, one of them is "The Hook."

- Yep, yep.

- Right.

- Shout out to Chef Ricky.

- Yeah, gosh, he's amazing.

- Yeah, he's a bad man.

- Yeah.

And I know, "Stay Prayed Up" was another one that you worked on.

- Shout out to Miss Lena.

- Gosh.

- Yeah, powerhouse.

- Especially Eastern North Carolina music, right?

- Yes, absolutely.

Newton Grove area, yep.

- And it's amazing that that music is continuing on.

- Yes, yes.

Oh, just being able to revisit that old time gospel via...

The [indistinct] was just amazing.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

It gives you goosebumps.

- It really does.

Ain't no time where you can listen to that music and not feel that way.

- Truly.

- Yep.

- And you worked on series like, you know, ""A Chef's Life"" or "Somewhere South."

- Yep.

- So you're incredibly, you know, I'm sorry to name drop all these things on you, but I feel like I have to because you're incredibly talented.

- Thank you.

- And I want our audience to know that.

- Appreciate that.

- What's it like for you to move between those mediums to be in a songwriting place, but then maybe go to a producer for a film or a television show?

What's that like for you?

- Well, I think part of it is figuring out for myself what is the through line, what is the connecting thread of all these things?

Like, I really try not to, you know, I try to stay in my wheelhouse, basically.

And my wheelhouse isn't necessarily defined by all these different genres of things.

I think the through line of all the things that you just named are, in some way, each project represents an underrepresented or population or a marginalized population, or a story of winning that doesn't always get to be center stage.

So that's the through line between all those projects you named.

- Yeah.

- Working on ""A Chef's Life"" or "Somewhere South."

We're talking about... Well, with "A Chef's Life," specifically, Eastern North Carolina food stories, foodways, that were preserved just by the isolation of the area.

Just the isolation and the beauty of the culture.

And, you know, Vivian being from there, Cynthia being from there, me being from there, that was just like going home.

Literally going home.

It was awesome.

You know, you just go driving them backroads and, you know, passing stuff you know in order to go film a show for PBS and the world gets to see this little corner of the world you're from.

That's just awesome.

- It's spectacular.

- Yeah, spectacular.

I see what you did there.

[both laughing] Spectacular.

Same with, you know, working on "The Hook" with Chef Ricky.

Similar thing.

He's from New Bern, North Carolina, you know, and he's a huge hip hop head.

So being able to do that story and use some music from, you know, North Carolina hip hop artists in the telling of his story, or that show, was really dope.

So it all comes back to like, you know, whose story are we sharing and what is my relationship to that story, and am I the person qualified to play the role in telling it?

And if I'm not, I respectfully remove myself 'cause I don't think it necessarily benefits the story to do that.

- Yeah.

- What's it like for you to see that in the world?

- Oh, wow.

And sometimes, like, when I'm traveling and I turn on PBS and see "A Chef's Life" or whatever, it just get giddy.

Man, it don't make sense.

- What do you mean?

- I mean, it's just wild.

It's just wild to know that, especially if I walk in or if I turn on the TV and there's the episode where my band is playing and the band breaks down.

Or if, you know, I'm bringing some tomatoes in for Vivian or something, I'm like, "Man, that..." And then also, the cool thing is that it steals a moment in time, you know?

It's like, that's the beauty of making anything creative, is that, it's a timestamp.

And so, you know, get to see yourself when you have few less grays or whatever.

So, it's pretty cool in that respect.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I wanna transition a little bit to the set list for your Shaped by Sound.

- Cool.

- And one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, what is your approach to a set list?

How do you think through that and, like, what goes into a set list for you?

- It reminds me of a part of the conversation we were having earlier about just how, like, just writing songs and compositions, set lists are their own compositions, I feel.

Some songs just don't work the same way live as they do recorded, to me.

I always think about, you know, sometimes I hear a song after I wrote it and go back and listen, like, "Oh, this would make a great opener."

It's like something that'll set the course for what folks are, it's like a first course.

Like, something... Like, this is what you... You know, this is just an appetizer, you know.

More coming.

But it is just the building and, you know, there's, I think it's like... Also, like, composition, the whole story, you know, there's, you pull the rubber band is tough you as you can, but then it's gotta release.

So that's where you throw in like a little ballady, slow down situation, and then you crank it back up for the end or whatever.

But I do think about, I think about the movement of songs in writing a set list.

I wanna leave folks on a high note most of the time, and that's either about the content of the song or either the tempo, the feel good, the funk of it.

Like, you know?

So, normally, we end on this song called "Expensive Experience."

And it's like, "Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, your time and attention, your presences of the essence.

This experience is expensive."

And so it's just me saying thank you to everybody.

And it's like, you know, put that kind of halfway through the set, it might be confusing.

- Right.

But it feels like such a awesome thing for an audience member to hear.

- Yeah.

And I try to make eye contact with people as I'm performing it and, you know, make sure people know I'm genuinely saying thank you for, there's so many other things you could do or other places you could be, and here you are.

So I really take that seriously.

And I wrote it with that in mind.

Like, I wrote it thinking about, "Oh, what would be a good outro song?"

We still haven't recorded it.

I meant for, like, studio recorded it, but it's a key part of our live set.

- That's really neat.

- Yeah.

- I think that's such a cool nod to just the audience.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And really thoughtful- - Oh, well.

- That you did that.

- Thank you.

- Yeah.

- So I kind of wanna go through your sat list if you can.

And I think one of the things that we'd love to do with this is understand a little bit more about the story on them, if there is one, and provide some context to that story and sort of how that ties back to you as a performer.

- Okay.

- So to start off the set, you've got "LYFTED" into the "Earth Segue."

- Yeah.

So, "LYFTED" into "Earth Segue," those songs don't necessarily go together.

The reason we do 'em together in the set is because, sonically, they just transition well.

LYFTED is a song that we've not recorded and spelled L-Y-F-T-E-D. And there's a little play on, like, you know, the apps, the driving apps, the car apps.

It's, yeah.

And it's like, you know, statistics, how many wanna get lifted?

And...

So, you know, it's about how many wanna get into this vibe that we're creating.

So it's... You know, it's a opener, it's like so.

- Yeah.

- It's meant to get people into the vibe and, you know, make people feel the room, get into the room a little bit, and "Earth Segue" kind of does the same thing.

- Yeah, that's really neat.

What about "Corner Pocket?"

This is one that you had on Cardinals at the Window?

- Yeah, yeah.

So "Corner Pocket," I wrote after my Aunt Annette died.

And she was like the aunt whose personality I most resemble.

Like loud, fairly witty, you know?

- Fairly witty?

- Fairly witty, thinks she's funny.

And her spirit is sorely missed.

You know, and I wrote that song for her as part of my grieving process.

But it's...

If you hear it, it don't sound like a sad, broody song.

It's really upbeat and it's meant to, you know, celebrate her spirit.

So it's upbeat and lively.

- Yeah, so it's more of a celebration than it is anything.

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

- And "Corner Pocket" is my favorite song that we perform right now.

- Really, why is that?

- Just 'cause of the nod back to my aunt and just, it's funky.

It's so...

I ain't even...

I ain't gonna hold you, but it hold your fishermen's beanie.

- I will.

- It's funky.

- Yeah.

- It really is, yeah.

[both laughing] - What's it like for you to perform something like that that's based in real, like, you know, emotions that are tied back to somebody that's nobody...

Sorry, that tied to emotions that is with people that are no longer with us.

- Right.

So, on the set, actually, that's why I was so moved.

That picture of the woman with the big fro, that's my Aunt Anette.

And so sometimes when I'm performing and my family's in the audience, I can't get through it.

And that's just real.

And the song is upbeat and it's happy and it's funky, but just knowing that they know, you know?

If there's somebody... And sometimes if my sister's in the room, same thing.

if there's somebody who knows, like, what that song means and what it, you know, the place it was written from, makes it harder.

But also, that's what you want.

I don't wanna not feel stuff.

I mean, you're still human up there on stage.

So, yeah, it's just like a real human moment.

Yeah.

- Do you feel like by doing sort of something, like, a song like that, that you're like putting things out into the universe where maybe they can pick up on it?

- Yeah, that's the goal.

That's the goal.

And I'm also soothing my family.

I'm soothing people, and people who know and love, who know loss and the missing of loved ones.

And, you know, as intimate as that song is for me, everybody knows this story in their own way, you know?

And then it's also like, you know, references to Juke joint and, you know, shooting pool and, you know, drinking stump hole and things that everybody knows about in their own way.

You know, gathering and fellowship with family and friends.

And so, you know, although it's very personal for me, it's a universal story.

- Hmm.

Can we talk about "Spectacles"?

- Yeah.

- Can you talk to us a little bit about what that is for you?

- Performance, whenever I play it?

- [James] Yeah.

- Well, I get kinda brash when I play it because I'm talking about, you know, "Spectacles," you can't stop watching and you're looking at me.

So, you know, it's kinda like you have to flex a little bit.

It's just like, you know?

Also, it's empowering.

Like, you have to, you know, it makes me sit up straight.

I have to own what I'm saying.

I'm telling people, you know, about this...

I'm kind of mirroring the experience of what I'm saying, Like, the "Spectacles," you think wearing dance shoes, the way you clock in every move, you know?

It's obvious, you can't stop watching.

So it's like, you want people to just be glued.

And it feels kind of cinematic in that way.

It's like I see it in and we put it like where we do in the set 'cause it kind of has this kind, you know, it's the climax of the movie where you understand what's about to happen.

Yeah.

- Is part of that, too, part of about the song "Spectacles," is that just about what it means to be a spectacle?

- Absolutely.

It's... Yeah.

And it's always about that, you know?

It's also about how I own being a spectacle and not...

It kinda gives me confidence when it ain't always easy to do that, you know?

So you gotta figure out how to shore yourself up, you know?

Especially when not only are you doing it in front of an audience, now you're doing it with cameras on and, you know, it gets... Like, how do you show up your best self, your most confident self, your most vulnerable self, and all those things can be juxtapositions in one body in one time.

But, you know, you want all those things to exist so you can bring your best to the stage.

- And the song "Short."

Can you talk to us about "Short"?

- Yep.

I'll be hearing stuff.

I'm, like, hearing it right now.

- [Shirlette] You're hearing the song in your head right now?

- Yeah.

So, Mavis SWAN Poole sings the chorus on that, and I really wanted like a gospel, like, churchy vibrato on that chorus.

And it's really about, it's like, It's blues based in terms of the composition of it.

It's just a uptempo blues rock song that talks about, you know, daddy not being around and you constantly coming up short, but you keep on coming up.

And it's kind of like, you know, kind of a mantra in that way.

- Yeah, why did you make the song like that?

- It just made sense to me to give it, like, it just felt like a blues.

Like, it is the blues.

Like, the story itself is the blues.

Like, that is the equation of the blues.

- [James] Yeah.

- Stuff you can't get over, stuff you need to get over, stuff you get over, you know?

It's like, you know, there's obstacles, you meet the obstacles, you get over the obstacles.

- Yeah.

- That is the blues equation.

And so it had to be written in that way, I feel like.

- Yeah.

Is there anything about the story that's personal to you within that song?

- Yeah, I talk about my pops and how he wasn't around, like, physically.

I mean, my parents were never married, but he was around, he was young, and, you know, thought his stuff didn't stink.

So, you know, he won't, until we we're older, didn't really rise to the occasion of being a dad.

And my mom and my stepdad were together since me and my twin were like five years old.

They got married when we were 18.

So I had other figures around that were father figures, but my dad physically wasn't there.

So it's like, "Mind what your mama said, but mama were coming up short.

Don't deny what your daddy did.

Daddy kept coming up short."

So it's just like a reckoning with that.

And it don't at all take away from what he meant to me.

He's no longer with us, but there's a honesty and a truth in it, and I reckon the only way I could write, the only way I could deal with him totally is to write about it and be honest with myself about my experience with him.

- Can you talk to us a little bit about the song "Hello"?

- Oh, "Hello."

So I call "Hello" my pandemic anthem.

'Cause it's like, "Hello, I see you every day from far away."

"Are you all right?"

And it's how we learned to check in on each other during the pandemic.

And so my homie Amelia [indistinct] is on that, is singing the chorus on that one.

And it's just...

There's a juxtaposition in the way Amelia delivers her chorus in this, like, really soft way, and then I come through with this more kind of like preacherly rhyme that's delivered with a little bit more aggression.

"Hello" is the most palpable song, I feel like, on the record.

Like, I think it's the song that people can sing along to and it's the one that we've gotten a lot of traction for.

Yeah.

- Do you feel like "Hello" is a bit of a calling out for like a wake up call?

- A little bit.

And well... Well, you know, I was did this other interview, and this cat asked me, "Do you really think we're all right?"

I'm like, "Damn, it, I don't know."

[both laughing] "Probably not."

"Sometimes."

"I don't know."

Yeah, I think of course.

I think just a checking in at least, if not a wake up.

It's literally like, "Yo, we gotta check in on each other."

That's it, yeah.

- Yeah.

And just find some kind of community within each other, right?

- Yeah, yeah.

We're remiss if we don't check in.

Yeah.

- Wanna talk to you a little bit, too, 'cause I know you've got Reese Palmer playing with you.

- [Shirlette] Yeah, I'm stoked.

- What's it like playing with Reese Palmer?

- Well, Reese and I have done some, like, just projects together, but never, like... Like, Reese's not on the record.

I just look for every time I play something live, I'll just ask Reese nowadays if she can do it, in hopes that she can.

And so that's where we are in our friendship.

It's a good place.

- [James] She's incredible.

- So, you know, this is like, I've asked her a few times, and it just hadn't worked out.

So this works out.

- Yeah.

- And I just love Reese's voice.

I just love the role she occupies in this moment in the work she's doing to, like, put Black country at the forefront, and by association, so many other genres that are, you know, core to the Black experience.

She's important and I'm just, you know, I'm stoked that she's...

This will be the first time she's singing these songs.

- Wow.

- So, yeah, that'll be cool.

- Yeah, we're always excited when we get a Reese Palmer.

- Yeah, yeah.

She's beautiful.

- Yeah.

Can we talk a little bit about "Spades."

- Kind of a metaphor just for the fellowship and camaraderie and junk talking of a spades game.

- And calling a spade a spade?

- Well, kind of, but it's more about just the cultural significance of the game of spades in Black culture.

That's really the jump off of it.

And so like, you know, you gotta be able to talk that talk and walk that walk when you sit down at a spades table.

So that's kind, you know?

The refrain of the song is really like, you know, you gotta own what you say.

And that's a metaphor for, you know, how spades is.

And my family's huge.

It's not even...

They take the fun out of it.

They take it so seriously.

It's like, there's always that one person who just makes it unfun for everybody 'cause they take it so seriously.

And every family knows who that person is.

- [James] Yeah.

- I won't say no names, but I know it is in my family.

- Do you play with your twin sister?

- Sometimes.

- An in like, are you on the same team?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's crucial.

I mean, that's... People get nervous when that happens.

- I mean, if I were play you, I'd be nervous, because I feel like with your, like, just the twin synergy.

I feel like you knows things about each other.

- And then if we win, it's so annoying because we just talk so much junk.

Yeah.

- I don't know if I could play spades.

I feel like I'm not...

I don't have enough trash talk in me to do it.

- Not yet.

Get your trash talk game up.

- [indistinct] my trashtalk callus.

- Yeah, exactly, exactly.

- What about ACCA "Battalions"?

- Okay, so that's just like the way we write it on the set list, it's ACCA, Which, like, short for acapella.

So I do this little acapella piece.

- Oh, cool.

- Yeah.

- That then leads into the song of "Battalions," which unfortunately is still relevant.

It's the song I wrote many moons ago, just kind of about...

It's probably the most overtly political song in the set list about holding our power brokers accountable, simply put.

Yeah, I bring it back, unfortunately, quite often because it still matters.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

I feel like that song will probably be timeless because there's always gonna be that need to call out.

- I know, right.

Exactly.

And I'm understanding that, you know, the further removed I get from the song, so... - Yeah.

- Yeah.

- What does it feel like for you to keep revisiting it over time?

- It's... Well, I performed it somewhere recently, and I started crying and I tried to explain that to people.

I wrote the song during...

I was gonna say Baby Bush.

Little, Bush Junior's administration.

- [James] So George W. Bush.

- George W. - Yeah.

- And it's still relevant.

It's just whack.

It's whack.

It's whack that we have to revisit things that, you know, just things that, you know, in my mind seem like, you know, simple positions that people should take or, you know, we shouldn't impeach or impair other people's ability to exist freely.

As simple as that.

So, you know, I exist in the margins of society in a lot of ways, in a lot of my presentations and identities.

And so I'm like, "Man, let us live."

You know, that's really the only point of that song.

Like, you know, when you choose to impair other people's rights to be who they are, you are impairing their freedom to live.

And that's like, that's a big thing.

- What about "My Music Come Around"?

This is an unreleased track, is that right?

- Yeah, you're right.

Yes, it is.

"Come Around," I think we released some moons ago, but we put these two songs together because it's just hella fun to play together.

It's really upbeat.

- It's funky.

- It's funky.

It's mad funky.

Yeah.

It's meant to move.

- Yeah.

- That's the type of song that works in like a standing room, you know, really well, get people up dancing.

And we do some cool hits that, like, reminds you of James Brown a little bit.

So, yeah, tapping into that soul funk era.

- What's it like for you to be sort of the leader of something like that?

- Oh.

I relish in it.

- Yeah?

[Shirlette laughs] - Well, it's just because, you know, somebody's gotta do it.

[Shirlette laughs] - Well, beyond that.

- Well, also... Well, I mean, that's...

It gives me something to do.

- Okay.

- And it really helps me, like, what do I do with my hands?

I cue the fellows a lot.

And it's part, I guess because we, most of the music, I write, and then we translate it into a live performance.

I just feel some kind of different, like, level of ownership of it.

So, being able to play that role.

And having them trust me to play that role is extremely important and empowering, especially as a woman.

- Yeah.

- Front in the band of mostly dudes most of the time.

- Hmm.

- So, yeah, I do it partly because I think it's important for people like me who look like me coming up, who didn't have those models and examples, to be able to see somebody like me doing that.

- Yeah, to lead the funk jam.

- Yeah, lead the funk jam confidently.

- Yeah.

- You know?

And it don't mean I don't make mistakes sometimes, but I do it comfortably.

I own it.

We keep it moving.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And have fun with it too.

- Oh, I have a ball.

I have a ball with it.

- That's great.

Can you speak about "Manish"?

- Oh, yeah, that's a song we haven't released yet.

I wrote it 'cause that's what my grandma used to call me, "manish."

It was like akin to tomboy.

"You acting manish."

And in the refrain, we say, "Where I'm from mean no harm if they say you acting manish."

And it was just like, kind of, sort of, it made me think my grandma saw me.

Like, you know, she didn't, you know?

She saw, like, me being a little rough and tumble, like, tomboy-type and just accepted it.

And I guess, you know, the way language changes and the way we, the names we have these for these different identities change over time.

But that was my intro to, like, queer identity, I guess.

My grandma calling me manish or, like, words like tomboy.

- Hmm.

I'm curious, looking back on that, do you, like, does it make you upset at all that she call you that?

- No, really don't.

And I think that's kind of the point.

Like, I found it in... Like, I don't...

I can't, you know... That wasn't her world, her language.

It just wasn't.

And so, like, she... And she never...

I was never for it.

It just means I was occupying roles that she had traditionally seen boys or men occupy.

And it was a simple, it was that literal.

I didn't take it as...

I'm sure she would've rathered me, you know, play piano than bass guitar in the church choir in a skirt.

But, no, I think she was always proud of, like, who I was.

So... - It seems like she just didn't have maybe the words to describe it.

- No, yeah.

And, you know, she didn't have the luxuries that I have of a certain type of education or travel or whatever, or, you know, so you can't hold that against people.

- Yeah.

And again, you were kind of talking about this song earlier, but can you talk to us a little bit about "Expensive Experience"?

- Yeah.

We go out on that because it's just an ode to the the folks who come out and listen and participate.

And I just think it's...

I see it as like just like a bow at the end of the set.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I've got one last question for you, and then... Well, actually I've got two, if that's okay.

- Okay.

- As a kind of, as an artist, as a lyricist, as, I won't say activist, but somebody in the activist space maybe, you know, you've talked about issues of race, gender, sexuality.

Do you feel like those issues as you've created art around them or spoke out, you know, defending them, have you seen anything change for the better or do you feel like you're doing something that's helping those causes out over time?

'Cause you've been doing this for such a long time.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, you have to think so, I feel like.

I mean, if only documenting that this was a belief that was held and shared and supported at this particular time, is that something?

And I would venture that it is.

And also, it goes back to my belief that that's our job as artists to chronicle the moment and speak truth to power via this very special lens and platform that we have.

Otherwise, what a waste.

What a waste of the ability to gather people's attention.

If I had your attention for the length of a set and didn't say something that was meaningful or spoke to the situation of people that I'm in community with locally, nationally, around the world, I just feel like that would be a waste of me asking you to pay me attention.

- [James] Hmm.

- So I guess my answer, yeah, I do think it matters.

- Yeah.

And do you...

I mean, do you think that it's... Do you feel like there's been a for the better?

Like, do you feel, like, personally, that you feel like- - Yeah.

I mean, I've seen it in my lifetime.

Of course, that doesn't mean that we've figured it all out.

There's some things that are straight up still just highly disappointing that we are living through genocide, the rollback of Roe v. Wade.

The fact that we have to revisit certain issues that affect people and marginal bodies that we've seem to constantly, it's like hamsters on a wheel.

We revisit things over and over at the expense of the least of us.

And so, yeah, there's plenty of reasons to cry and shout.

The work continues, but, yeah, you can't deny that we have made forward strides as well.

We don't rest on that though.

- [James] Right.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

Thank you for answering that.

- Sure, glad to.

- That's a tough question.

- No, I'm here for it.

- And one thing I wanna revisit another question, and I didn't really get a chance to answer, or ask you, excuse me.

We were talking about your grandmother's living room.

You called it a Black community gathering space.

- [Shirlette] Absolutely.

- Can you speak to that a little bit?

- Well, Sundays, that is the best example.

First or third Sunday after church, everybody comes back and breaks bread at grandma's house.

The energy is hard to even... You have to be in it, you know?

It's just like so boisterous.

Everybody's talking.

You know, it's like talking over each other is such... And, you know, this is my way of keeping it alive in some ways, 'cause we don't really do it that way.

But most folks know in the...

I think it is a Black thing and a Southern thing, you know?

It's a key part of both of those cultures and where those cultures overlap.

That's a whole nother podcast.

[both laughing] But I think, you know, folks who know it know exactly what I mean when I say it, you know?

It's such a safe place.

When that term gets tossed around a lot these days, for me, it's my original.

It's like my OG safe place, was Grandma's house.

Just the place I knew.

Like, no matter what I did out in the world, I could always go back there.

I could be short up to go back out.

I could be affirmed.

I could... Like, that's, you know, the source of all my creativity.

You know, all the things I write about, all the things I interpret that, you know, when I am out and have the ability to go and see things that, you know, are really truly unbelievable sometimes, like, that's the source of it.

So, yeah, it's a cornerstone, for sure.

- Yeah.

Thank you again for being on our show.

I'm sure that- - I'm honored.

This has been tons of fun, and I can't wait for the music.

- Yeah, it's getting- - We haven't talked about it enough.

Now we gotta go be about it.

- Let's go do it.

[Shirlett laughing] One thing I just wanted to leave this conversation with, is there anything else that you would like to say that maybe I didn't touch on that you'd like to speak to?

- No.

I feel like I talked y'all's ear off.

[Shirlette laughing] - No, it was a pleasure.

- Thank you, thank you.

- Thank you so much for being here.

- Yup, thank you.

- [James] Thanks for joining us on the "Shaped by Sound Podcast."

If you'd like to hear some of the songs we discuss today, you can find them on our website, pbsnc.org/shapedbysound.

Or find us on the PBS North Carolina YouTube page.

Thanks for listening.