- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, what does it really mean to invest in our youth?

Is it enough to keep them busy after school, or are we in need of creating spaces where they feel seen, valued, and empowered?

We examine how meaningful engagement can influence confidence, opportunity, and long-term success.

Coming up next, stay with us.

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(upbeat music) ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

For some parents, it can be tough finding meaningful programming for kids outside of school, and those that promote educational activities and recreation that fit nicely around work schedules are very attractive.

But is it enough to simply keep our youth busy, or should we be seeking and building something deeper, something that shapes who they are, how they see themselves, and what they believe is possible?

Joining me now are two leaders doing powerful work in this space.

Joy Harrell-Goff is the executive director of Bump the Triangle, a multi-generational arts movement rooted in African diasporic culture that nurtures young creatives through storytelling, performance, and mentorship.

And next to her is Dr.

Kia Allah, who is the youth program director at Black & Belonging, an organization focused on creating environments where young people don't just participate, but they truly feel seen, valued, and connected.

Welcome to you both.

- Thank you.

- Thank you for having me.

- You know, often when we think about programming, youth programming in particular, we think academics, right?

We think afterschool, extracurriculars, but both of you have kinda gone a little beyond that lens.

Yes, there's some of that, but there's also intention.

Joy, I'll start with you.

Share about how you've approached programming for the youth and a little bit about Bump the Triangle.

- Well, thank you for the opportunity.

Bump the Triangle is a creative youth development organization.

So what that means in a nutshell is we, and we center African diasporic arts.

So we've identified culture bearers in our own community from various art forms who work intentionally with youth as co-creators.

So when you think of the word mentorship, a lot of times you'll think of an older person who has something to impart in the younger generation, but we see ourselves as eldering.

And so eldering is a little bit different.

When you're eldering, you have experience, you've gone through something hard, you've come out on the other side, you're better for it.

You're highly skilled in your craft.

You have an affinity for passing on what you know to the next generation.

And you know, and you understand the value in that.

And so youth become, they become your partners of sorts, because what the youth has to offer has a lot to, you know, they're the ones that kind of drive the culture.

- Yes.

- And so we've identified people who share these understandings who are all proficient in various African diasporic art forms.

And they offer all of these things, and then the youth sign up to spend time with them in this mentorship role, and we co-create.

- That's beautiful.

- So everything from African drumming to steel pans.

We have three choirs, we have a theater, we have balafons, West African balafons, visual arts, it's a beautiful experience.

- And I've seen it firsthand, and it is beautiful to see all the kids come together.

But then like you said, the elders of the community also coming together to teach and pass down that knowledge, it's beautiful.

Kia, Black and Belonging, you are the program director.

Talk about programming with Black and Belonging, and how does it distinguish itself from other programs?

- So we consider ourselves like a collective of young thinkers.

So we essentially do a lot of youth initiatives, youth-led initiatives within schools.

We work in Durham and Wake Counties.

And our whole focus is how do we position and assist youth in positioning themselves to talk about belonging and their sense of belonging within their schools, identifying gaps within their experiences, and really just elevating their ability to be the experts of what they're experiencing.

We do a lot of work where we, as the adults in the space, we de-center ourselves, and so we are facilitators of conversations, we arm them with research skills to be able to conduct qualitative and quantitative research to support their views.

Oftentimes, when you have adults speaking to youth, it's very easy for adults to kind of write off what young folks are saying.

And so we teach our participants that, no, no, no, when you have the data behind you and you engage with your peers and you're able to analyze and pull themes out of what youth are saying, that becomes your support.

And it's a lot easier to say, well, you just don't like this class, or you just don't like this space, versus saying, no, 477 of us said this is problematic.

And so we really just enjoy pushing youth to the front.

And really-- - It's empowering.

- It really is.

And what comes of it and what we've seen come of it is that when we support them in leading, very often they take off running.

And so that's what I love about it.

I love being able to see them just kind of take off.

- You mentioned, you said something to the effect of elements missing from other programs, and they're creating space for themselves.

What's missing from other programs?

I'll start with you and then we'll come to you.

- Oftentimes what gets left out is when programming is done and curriculum is developed, very often it does not include youth voice.

And so you have adults deciding, this is what we should do for the children, instead of saying, hey, let's work with youth to plan out what it is they want to see in these spaces.

And oftentimes when you have that kind of disconnect, that's why we lack, some programs lack engagement or you may have attendance issues.

It's different when they have the buy-in because they feel like, oh, wait, I helped set this up.

I helped develop this.

This is really shaped to the experience that I as the youth want to have within it.

So I definitely think that's one of the things that gets overlooked.

It's such a crucial and important piece, but it gets overlooked oftentimes because we're the adults with the checklists and we know all of the points that have to be hit.

Exactly.

And too often we leave out their extremely important perspective on what it is they want.

- And Joy, you focus more on that cultural lens or that cultural inclusion with the diasporic elements and activities.

How is that or is that missing from other programming that's out there?

- So yes, definitely.

But I would say that a lot of what we call culture, like there's various ways that people look at culture.

So when I'm talking about culture, it's not just like the culture that you're connected to by heritage and lineage, but it's also the culture that you create, which is about community and how you build community.

- When I was hearing what you were saying about them willfully engaging, that's what we always say.

If you have a program and the youth are not willfully engaging, like sometimes they'll engage out of obligation.

They'll engage because mama said engage, daddy said engage.

I have to, are out of this sense of compliance.

- Because you signed me up for this.

- Right, you signed me up for this.

There's growth that can happen in that.

However, when they willfully engage, when they're a part of the culture that's being built in the program and when they've also contributed to what that culture looks like, or when they connect to culturally by heritage, by ways of knowing and being from what they've learned, when they find that connection, I call those our cultural continuities.

When they're able to find that, there's a different kind of engagement that they have.

And you get to experience a different kind of creativity and growth.

So that's what we're looking for in the kind of programming that we create.

And the only way that you can create that is in partnership with the youth that you're working with.

That's not something that we as adults can do on our own.

- True.

Do you find yourselves partnering with other organizations that are lacking those elements or other programs out there to help kind of diversify the reach or the opportunity for parents to have access to this kind of programming?

- That's a tricky question.

Because I'll speak from personal experience.

Early on in our organization, we did.

We were workshopping and doing programs in other environments.

And what we learned, to make it short, what we learned is that you have to have those spaces where you have some autonomy of the environment that you create.

If you're always going into the other environments, then you have, there's a need for that, there's a use for that.

But then it's a different experience to be able to allow the youth to own the environment and to decide what that environment is gonna look and feel like and be able to come back to it and trust it.

And also for them to be able to create those environments that aren't interrupted.

Because I think a lot of times, when we try to implant into other spaces without shared understandings, then they're often interrupting the process that we need in order to grow.

- Right, right.

Kia, when you look at barriers that students that you have taught or are part of Black and Belonging have encountered outside of that space, what do those barriers look like?

- Oftentimes, we have to think in terms of access.

Access becomes a barrier.

And so for us, the way that we've structured our programming is we have been blessed and fortunate enough to partner with school districts and school leadership who's allowed us to run programming as part of the school day.

Because oftentimes, folks may not be able to get and stay after school and have a ride, or they may have childcare responsibilities of their own.

We understand as a community, we have children who are helping out their younger siblings and things of that nature.

And so access has been a barrier that we are very intentional about trying to remove.

And so all of our programming, we're able to be able to have that during the school day.

So it's open and available to all of the students who are attending that school.

So I would definitely say that's one barrier that we've seen.

And then another barrier has been from the outside.

There's a politicizing of education.

We understand that that's happening.

The sociopolitical landscape that we are in, there's been a crunch and that's happening where the work still needs to be done.

The desire to get the work done is there.

The participants are eager.

But when you talk about needing funding and financing for those things, the reality is that when you are aligned as an affinity group, or you're looking at black and brown specifically, right now there's pushback for some of that.

And so that doesn't make the work any less necessary.

It makes it more necessary.

And so we have been fortunate enough to secure funds to, because part of what we do is we try to give them experiences.

For example, we took a group of students to Los Angeles last week to present at a national conference.

We've done that the last several years in different varying cities at no cost to their parents, because cost should not be a barrier to you being able to share your expertise with the world and on a national stage.

- What are some, so kids that can't participate in this over the years, I know growing up, I grew up in Raleigh, I didn't have access to a lot of things that was representative of my culture and who I looked like.

And I don't know that that has been a detriment to who I am today.

However, I do think I'd be slightly different or different sooner, right?

And so when we think of long-term impacts on the youth that don't have access to these opportunities, what does the impact look like?

- I think the lack of exposure creates a lack of pathways.

So, we center creativity and creative thinking and innovation in the work that we do.

And always trying to prime the pump, think outside the box.

Imagine what your world looks like.

Creativity is a powerful force.

- Right.

- So, the objective is to expose them to as many things as we can because it opens up their imagination.

It opens up the pathways for future innovation.

And we know the youth are the innovators.

So if we don't expose them or if we underexpose them, those are talents and skills that are underdeveloped.

Those are future innovations that we might not experience in the same way because they just lacked the exposure.

So, I talk about this all the time with my peers.

We have young people, I remember being in Iowa and having the same thing, similar young people, black and brown kids in Iowa who had never been outside of Iowa.

And then you look at Durham, and in many ways we're privileged because we have so much culture, so much rich heritage and culture here and history.

But I don't wanna take that for granted because we have youth in Durham who have not been outside of Durham.

And so their whole community is right here.

And so what we wanna do is we want to expand that community to be globally.

Look, you're not just a part of this community, but your opportunities in your community is worldwide.

It's expansive.

- So, part of black and belonging that I love is the belonging piece.

And so what you're talking about is finding a place to belong wherever we are.

I wanna pivot this question to you, Kia.

When we think about the importance of understanding or having a sense of belonging, what does that look like?

And how do kids that feel like they belong show up?

- So what we do is we frame belonging in very simple terms for young people.

And it's feeling respected, accepted, included, and supported.

And so when we first start working with youth, that is the foundation that we're working with.

Because in connection to your previous question, what happens when you don't feel that sense of belonging is we have withdrawal, you have a disconnect.

And a lot of, oftentimes, there's a lack of confidence within yourself.

And so for us, you take yourself wherever you go.

And so our, like the overall reach is to always make sure that we are building strong scholars.

Be it black, Latine, white, anyone.

Because at the end of the day, the sense of belonging is a universal human experience.

And so when we talk about how do you get kids to feel that, oftentimes, it's been my experience in working with middle and high schoolers that when I start to talk to them about what does it mean to be respected, what does it mean to be accepted, what does it mean to be included or supported, they can pretty much verbalize what that is for them.

What that looks like.

Because when you give them the alternative, they know what disrespect feels like.

They know what exclusion feels like.

You know, they may not know the word marginalization, but they understand when you're in a space where you don't feel is built around you and doesn't value who you are.

And so it's really about the framework that we use and really connecting them at a very base level and then saying, okay, now flip these things.

How do you see this in your school?

How do you see this in your classroom?

How do you experience this in your daily life?

And so what we've seen for students who really do feel that strong sense of belonging, especially in the schools that we're working in, is that they grow in their love and identity with their school in addition to within themselves.

And so we are seeing scholars who are confident.

We are seeing 13, 14-year-olds who are presenting in front of audiences of hundreds of adults.

And they'll present to their peers.

They've presented and done work to their administrators and they have acknowledged and embraced their voice.

That's what that looks like for us.

- So what age groups do both of the organizations target?

Black and Belonging?

- So we primarily work middle school, so sixth through eighth grade.

So that's anywhere from 11 to 14.

But typically we've got several, everyone's a scholar in our group.

So we have several scholars who are high school and college bound and so we're able to support them as well in their different endeavors and pull them in for different projects and things like that.

If an opportunity comes our way and we know a young person who may be well suited for this, if we've got a young lady who's interested in fashion and we hear about a fashion show and hey, do you wanna head up a media team?

We absolutely try to be the conduit and kind of leverage our resources for their benefit.

- What about Bump?

- Our kids, our babies, sometimes they're as young as four.

- I was gonna say, I've seen some littles.

- Our primary programming though is like six to 18.

And some of our 18 year olds have now, they're a little older and they're still involved and so we're evolving what that looks like for them.

- I was gonna ask, do they come back and I know mentorship was not the word you wanted to use, but do they kind of take a mentor role with the young ones?

- So the way we refer to it, we call it's a Jigna.

- Jigna, okay.

- A Jigna is the etymology is an African etymology and instead of using like a Greek etymology of mentor, it's the same concept though.

And so the culture bearers is what we're bringing up.

The teachers are the culture bearers, they're the ones that are giving them these ways of knowing and being and how to interact with all of the arts and the instruments.

And they become the culture bearers.

So they're gonna carry it forward.

And if they choose to come back, then they become the beloved Jigna.

They've joined the Janosh.

- Now, I know growing up for me, I was also an arts kid.

I played instruments, I loved all the things, but that wasn't always supported.

And so as we've seen decades come on, we've noticed that arts is now being included in a lot, but do you still feel like arts is kind of undervalued?

- I do.

And part of that is I think everybody, if people step back and they really think about how the arts impacts their life, we take it for granted.

We don't really understand just how embedded arts is to creativity, is to innovation.

And so a lot of our kids, there's things that we value and I don't take any of the value away from those things like sports or certain kinds of academic achievements.

We give high value to those things.

And then often our kids in particular are especially gifted in these things that are very highly creative and artistic, music and dance and singing and literary arts and all of these things that require this kind of elevated creativity.

And they have these giftings and they aren't celebrated in the same way.

It's seen as an extra or this is the thing I do on the side or, but they don't see how the arts plays a major role in how our world moves, how our culture shifts, how we move and think, how we impact.

I mean, think about movies and all these images and who influences that.

So I do think we still devalue the arts.

We think of it as something that is just, oh, this is nice, it looks good, it's pretty, but we don't think about how necessary it is for innovation, for moving the culture and how we speak.

- Right.

Kia, if we've got parents who are watching who they don't have access to a Black and Belonging or a Bump, but they wanna advocate for their children and create space within spaces that already exist, how does one go about doing that?

- I would always encourage, right, not being afraid to start your own.

Oftentimes, you'll have young people who have interests and if those aren't nourished, if there's not push to the forefront, it kinda goes under the radar.

But oftentimes, if you want to encourage your child or even you as a parent to say, hey, is there a way to get an anime club?

Is there a way to get, my child is into culinary, is there any way to bring in guest speakers who are caterers or within that particular industry?

The advocating, oftentimes, schools specifically, if you're talking about in a school setting, there's so much going on that there are so many cracks that things fall through.

And so, I always am an advocate of, well, if you don't say anything, no one knows that you want that thing.

- Is it ever too late?

If my kid's 16, 17, 18-- - Nope.

It is never, ever, ever too late.

I think if you think about it in terms of it being a cycle, right?

At 16, 17, 18, you're not even fully settled into your identity yet.

So it can't possibly be too late for us to build you up and for it to help you settle in what that identity is.

And so, you're going to, the older I find, the older that kids get, the more experiences that they're having, the more that sense of belonging is needed because you need to feel respected, you need to feel accepted, you need to know how to build those spaces for yourself.

Because we know, as black women, as Latina women, we know that that is not always just there waiting for you to show up.

So we have to be very diligent in trying to advocate for and build those spaces.

We just have to say, and I know it sounds very simplistic, but we have to say, this is what we need.

This is what the children need.

- And that brings me to partnerships and the importance of community.

I know there's a lot that Bump wants to do.

I'm sure the same with Black and Belonging.

Raising money, finding alliances, that's really important.

What are some things on the horizon that both of you would love to work on and bring to fruition for your organizations, but you need partnership?

- Partnership.

- We do have a minute, just so I know.

- I know, that is such a big question.

Well, one thing I will say right now is that for Bump the Triangle, we have all of our youth programming that's happening, like 24 different weekly offerings during the week, 30 weeks out of the year minimum.

That's a lot of classes.

We see our kids on a weekly basis.

So we've gotten that moving, and that's moving, but we have this initiative to expand their territory.

And so we have started a birthright program.

And we are-- - And not to cut you off, 'cause we just have 30 seconds, but the website has been up, and so folks can find out more information there.

- They certainly can, and ways to donate, right?

- And ways to donate.

Same with Black and Belonging?

- Same, yes.

We've got initiatives where we're trying to recreate murals and things at schools for the children to be able to leave their mark on the building that they were at.

But absolutely check out blackandbelonging.com and Instagram, on Instagram you can see all of the things that the children have been working on.

- Thank you so much.

I appreciate you both.

And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #blackissuesforum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) ♪ - Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBSNC.