Shaped by Sound combines performance and conversation to capture the depth of the North Carolina music scene.

Fancy Gap, created by Raleigh native Stuart McLamb and Charles Crossingham, aimed to capture a moment.

What's that moment?

It's pop rock bliss, ready for the radio and fit for an arena.

Today on the Shaped by Sound podcast, Stuart McLamb and Charles Crossingham of the indie rock group Fancy Gap.

We have Stuart, we have Charles from Fancy Gap.

Thank you so much for being on Shaped by Sound and coming in and chatting with us and being here.

Thanks for having us.

This is great.

Big time.

Thank you so much.

So I kind of wanted to start from the beginning maybe.

Y'all are from North Carolina, is that right?

Where are you from?

I was born and raised in Cary, which has changed a lot.

But I remember Cow Pastures, Kildare Farm Road, which is actually a farm.

But I spent a lot of my time growing up in Raleigh as well, you know.

Chapel Hill, but born and raised in Cary.

Apex High School.

I was going to say, did you go to Cary High?

Apex, class of '99.

Wow.

I realized that the Cary, like the high school of Cary, their mascot is the Imps.

Yeah.

And I bought a sweatshirt just because I thought that was hilarious.

Yeah.

I think they got nominated one of the best high school mascots in the country because of that.

Yeah, the Imps.

It's weird.

Yeah.

We were the Cougars.

The Cougs.

Apex, the Cougs.

What about you, Charles?

I was born in Mount Airy, North Carolina.

Oh, awesome.

So there, and then I grew up in the triad.

Yeah.

So Greensboro, High Point area.

Sweet.

Then I moved to Raleigh for college.

So I went to NC State.

Awesome.

Wait, so where, I'm from Green, I'm from Summerfield, but- Oh, cool.

I call it Greensboro, I guess.

What high school did you go to?

I went to Catholic school.

Oh, did you go to Bishop McGinnis?

I did.

I got in a little trouble and my mom sent me to Catholic school one day.

It's like the Fresh Prince.

It's like the wild experience.

I'm not Catholic, so I learned a lot about religion and- Lots of guilt.

So they wouldn't give me communion or, I remember going into the confession booth.

He's like, "Get out of here.

You're not even Catholic."

Oh my gosh.

So I couldn't confess my sins.

It fueled some great songwriting, I'd like to think.

There you go.

Yeah.

So I kind of want to talk to you two about, can we start also with the beginning of you two meeting?

Can you talk to us a little bit more about how you met?

Yeah, that goes back, I think, we don't know like the exact date or anything.

I think it was 2010, March 14th.

March 14th.

I have it written in my diary.

Let me check my journal.

Today I met Stu.

So I think I knew about Stu before he knew about me just because of the love language.

So I was working with one of his friends from high school, and he gave me a CDR that Stu had made of love language demos.

And I guess this was 2006, 2007?

No, it would have probably been '08, probably '07.

'07.

So I was blown away by that.

So that was sort of my first impression of Stu.

And I remember going and looking up the MySpace page for the love language before he'd really even fleshed it out.

And I figured out a way to download the songs off the MySpace page so that I could just like have them on me.

How did you do that?

Hacking.

Yeah, hacking.

In 2007, hacking.

Hacking.

I think I just looked at the page source.

So yeah, that was my first impression of Stu.

And then I rented a warehouse for music recording and things like that, practice space off of West Street in Raleigh for a decade, a long time.

And Stu was right across the street in his practice space.

And we met one day out in the street.

I think I had--we had a practice space at Ruby Red, which was like sort of a shared artist's warehouse.

You know, they had painters and we had a rehearsal space at the bottom.

But I think I had moved into the one next door.

These were these glory days of Raleigh where artists were like living in warehouses.

Yeah.

And I bet we both made an impression of each other because he's-- I think I had a bed, like my bed in the bottom of this warehouse floor.

Did I?

Do you remember that?

Yeah.

Because I remember--I bet he was--he came in and I was like, "Excuse the mess.

I'm not like quite homeless."

But it was--it worked out.

And then he made an impression on me because he had his dog, Lady, off leash and was just chilling like right by his side.

And I was like, "Who's this dude?

No leash?"

And she was like so sweet and just hanging with him.

And he was real kind and, you know, he was like, "Just want to introduce myself.

I have a rehearsal space across the street.

Love your music."

And I was like, "Thanks, man."

And nothing really crystallized.

We had kind of met.

I don't remember if we had traded numbers.

I just remember--but it made an impression on me.

I was like, "This guy seems like definitely special," you know.

And then I think we--yeah, Love Language was touring.

I was real focused on that.

But there was many DMs just over the years.

And so it took a long time to really--things line up for us to work together.

But he'd check in, like, "Love the new album," or-- and then he was like, "Well, I've got this recording gear."

Charles collects a lot of like cool vintage recording.

He can tell you about his gear probably better than I can.

But he was like, "You should come out and record on this sometime."

And I was like, "That sounds cool, man.

We'll make it happen sometime."

And it just--years went by.

And finally, when we really connected, I think I had put out a message of-- there was like no rehearsal spaces in Raleigh.

I was living in L.A.

It's kind of a long-winded story, but I was living in L.A. at the time but coming back to play a Christmas show, and we just couldn't find a rehearsal space.

And I put it on Facebook, like, "Where do you rehearse now in Raleigh?"

And then he DM'd me and was like, "I got the studio I've been working up.

Y'all should come do it here."

But he's like, "You've got to record on my stuff.

Check it out."

And I was like, "Let's do it."

That was the deal.

I was like, "You can use my practice space, but we have to track a song."

He's like, "Yeah."

And we just hit it off.

What was that deal for you?

I mean, you made this deal, but what were you thinking?

Like, when you were like, "I'm going to make a deal with Stu and see if I can get him in here."

It wasn't monetary or anything like that.

I just love art.

I love music.

And I truly think Stu has one of the best voices I've ever heard.

And so I was just real grateful to-- You know, as a producer and as a recording engineer, you're really only as good as the talent on the other side of the microphone.

And so I was grateful to test out my gear on someone whose voice I really admired.

So that was what was in it for me.

So you just saw this potential there that like, "I just got to get him into this space.

If I could just get him here, this could happen and it could be-- like something really magical could happen."

Absolutely.

And it actually worked out that way, I'd like to think.

It was great.

I have weaknesses, I think, of wanting to layer these tracks.

There's the songwriter side of me, and then there's a producer side of me that can sometimes get in the way and like, "Let's add this and that."

And Charles was like, "I want you and acoustic guitar."

And I'd shared some songs I'd been working on.

And he picked one, "Strawberry Moon."

He's like, "Just sing that."

And yeah, like the quad-8s he had, they're like-- it's basically like a big console consolidated into like a box.

You could probably go into more detail, but it's thick and good mics, really good preamps on it.

And it just sounded huge.

It was just me and a guitar, and I was like, "This is great.

Well, let's--you know."

That was really when it connected, and I saw his vision of trying to get all the clutter out of the way and just kind of capture a moment.

And then we just started talking about it.

I was like, "Well, I've got this new Love Language record in the works.

Let's do it together."

And I'll fly--I still was living in LA, but I was like, "I'll fly back in March, and we're just going to-- I just want to cut it all in one month."

That's not what happened.

How long is this podcast?

But, I mean, sort of consolidated story is the pandemic was coming in, the coronavirus, everyone was calling it around this time.

And we had many--they really impacted me, these long phone calls when I was in LA since this initial recording session just talking about music and life.

And I just felt like a real connection with them, and I was getting to a point of, you know, what's here in LA?

I'd been there about four years, and, you know, get back to my roots, get back to North Carolina.

And plus he had just showed so much enthusiasm for my music, which meant so much to me.

So I was like, "I think I'm just going to move back, and we'll work on this together."

I don't want to take all the airtime, but basically what started as him producing a love language album, I mean, I think "Strawberry Moon" is the one song that was kept, and we started writing together, and it just very organically morphed into this sort of collaborative relationship.

Yeah.

And you were speaking about capturing--it captured a moment.

What do you mean by that?

Like, what was hitting you that made you want to come back from Los Angeles and record a record with Charles?

It was a lot of trust in the simple ideas he had.

Like, there's--yeah, you can punch in and out, and there's all these endless editing options now, but Charles is interested in, like--I mean, we'd argue.

I'd be like, "I need to do it to a click."

He's like, "Just play.

We'll figure it out."

And then some of the songs we tracked, and he just wants to start-- I think his philosophy--and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's just like, if we get your voice and a performance that you're really feeling, we'll build the track from that sort of seed that's good, rather than, I don't know, go about it in some kind of mechanical building block way.

Like, let's start with the magic and then build out from there.

And I never really thought about it like that.

Yeah, there's just a power in, like--I mean, I could play a song right now five times, and there's going to be one that's the best, you know, or has a little more heart to it.

And I feel like that's what Charles is always trying to capture.

Yeah, I think that if you can put people in a situation to capture their magic, then you have so much more going for you than putting them in sort of a sterile environment and being like, "Okay, we have eight hours.

You've got to pay this guy.

He's got to eat lunch."

And, you know, sometimes recording--art doesn't happen on a nine-to-five schedule, and a lot of recording studios operate that way.

And so for me, you know, I'm down to record three in the morning if that's where the magic is.

So I think that that was something that intrigued Stu.

You know, just let's put ourselves in an environment that's inspiring with some gear that's inspiring.

And the gear is actually a really cool story.

And I think that this inspired Stu a lot because he was able to hear himself through these vintage mic preamps.

And shout out to my buddy John Whitley in Chapel Hill.

He is sort of this mad genius recording guru, and he's always restoring vintage gear.

And over the years, he has made a lot of wonderful friendships all over the world because he's just--he's truly a genius.

He's a geophysicist by day and then this recording engineer at night, as well as a great father and husband.

And he over the years made friends with Chris Walla from Death Cab for Cutie on eBay.

So I feel like--I don't know if I've ever heard of anyone becoming friends on eBay, but they were just like gear buddies, swapping gear back and forth.

And somehow Chris Walla connected him--I might be messing this story up a little bit, but a recording studio burned down, and it had this amazing vintage console in it.

And Chris connected John with the people that owned it, and he bought up the burned up console.

And he spent several years repurposing these amazing mic preamps.

And it really is a great console.

Like, Jaquir Keen uses it.

A lot of great records have been made on it.

And so it allowed us to--something that would normally be in a huge studio that would take up this whole space and weigh several thousand pounds was all of a sudden portable, and it was in rack units.

And so we could all of a sudden have an amazing sound in a cabin in the middle of nowhere, or wherever you put us, we could take these things.

And so I think that was something that inspired me for sure and Stu.

And we didn't always use this incredible vintage gear.

Sometimes we used just what we had available, but I think that that felt a little magical to us at the time.

That sort of takes us into Fancy Gap, right?

Charles, can you tell us a little bit more about Fancy Gap?

So Fancy Gap, like I said, I was born in Mount Airy.

And Mount Airy is an interesting place because it's basically the foothills of the mountains.

And then 10 miles north, the elevation probably goes up 2,000 feet.

And there's just this huge sort of hill or mountain up.

And there's a whole community up there.

So it's really not a mountain.

It's like a continental shift.

I mean, the land is just higher all of a sudden north of Mount Airy.

And my brother-in-law, his family has always kind of had mountain houses and things like that up in these hills.

And so he kind of tuned me into this community on the mountain.

And there's a lot of amazing bluegrass music up there and gospel and things like that.

And so several years-- Was it like a Christmas or something?

You had never even really-- Yeah.

--this ride in your backyard.

Yeah, he took me on a ride one Christmas morning.

And we, like, I think we brought a flask and just sort of cruised around.

And he--we can edit that out.

But it was just kind of like a special ride.

This guy that, like, loves nature just showing me this thing that meant a lot to him and his family and history.

And I fell in love.

And I was like, oh, my God, I have to--I have to get one of these places.

And so I guess 2015, '16, I bought a log cabin up there.

And it's nothing crazy, but it turned out to really tell our story.

I mean, this was a really magical place.

I had some great nights up there.

But then Stu and I sort of took this place over.

And it's one of my favorite places to create.

There's just--yeah, there's a really beautiful view that's inspiring both day and night.

You kind of see the valley and the--you know, it's not like the Hollywood Hills with the lights, but it's similar, kind of, you know, a little sparkle at night.

And we would just kind of clear out the--it's kind of one--it's a small little cabin, but we would just clear out the shared sort of living room/kitchen combo for you.

And we'd move the table to the back and just put the monitors and set up to record there.

But, yeah, it's just--like, we didn't--it's not treated.

There's not, like, a studio.

It's just--you know, something about the space is just real inspiring to create.

You get really bad cell phone service, so you're not distracted with calls or checking your Instagram and all that.

So, yeah, great place to kind of unplug.

That was inspiring for us, too.

I think just, like, it was just this room, you know, in a cabin.

And then it's made of logs, so it's like--it's not a fancy studio.

We ended up in some fancy studios, but really the bones of this record, there's nothing fancy about it, really.

It was just sort of--except the gap, fancy gap.

But I think that that was kind of punk rock feeling for us.

It was like, we're going to make this huge record however we know how, and with these limited resources and in the middle of nowhere, it felt like, during a really strange time in our lives.

And it's kind of funny.

I think we knew it was going to be consequential early on.

And so, yeah, sometimes we were lost.

And it's funny, we would chop a lot of firewood out there.

We'd burn a lot of fires.

And somewhere along the way, we just started using it sort of as a metaphor for the album, like, hey, we don't know where this is going, but just every day, chop at the tree, chop at the tree of this record.

Even if we just take one swing, it'll come down eventually if we just promise to always hit this thing.

And it was--it really--I feel like we really dove in during the pandemic, which I know we're not alone there.

So many--a lot of great art came from that time where everything kind of shut down.

But we--it was fortunate.

I mean, the world got real quiet and we had this great place to go to create.

Yeah.

You know, everyone formed their little safe pandemic buddies, you know, and then that was me and Charles.

Yeah.

I mean, you were all capturing a moment there yourselves again, right?

It seems like you were setting up that creative space to just let the thing happen, right?

Yeah.

Beyond chopping wood together and doing that every single day, as you were making music, you know, how did you two sort of become a team?

Yeah, there was--at the beginning, when it was thought of as a Love Language record, Charles just kind of gave me the keys.

I remember he was just--and that made a big--it really earned my trust because he wasn't like, all right, play me the songs and don't like that, or, you know, like a typical producer.

He was just like, go--he probably knew that my demos weren't that great.

I was kind of in a cloudy place and I don't think that my true voice was necessarily in some of the songs I was working up.

But he never--he was always encouraging, but he just said, "Take the keys and go write."

And I think some things came out of that.

And then that allowed me to sort of play, and then I think there was just more dialogue started to happen.

And--wow, this feels so long ago now.

I'm trying to go back down memory lane.

At some point, I always--when it was still thought of as Love Language, I always really appreciated his input, what we were working on.

And he'd start getting real, being like, "I don't know if that one's working," or, you know, "I like this," and I'd see the value in his input.

But then at some point, it really was just--maybe it's hard for me to pinpoint a time because it was so organic that we just started to-- he's like, "I got this little riff.

What do you think?"

And I was like--and he would--this leads us to the cheeseburgers, if you know about--but he would kind of hand me like a prompt, either like a lyrical prompt or like a riff, and there was something about it that I just--it would be like a diving board for me in like--you know, sometimes songs take so long, you're working on them, these would be like--I'd be like--and-- - Well, can I stop you for a second?

So what would a prompt be?

Like what would you--how would you get that started?

What would be a prompt for Stu?

- Whether it's like a riff, like for example, "Sweet Time."

"Sweet Time" is the first song we ever wrote together.

It's the last song on the album.

- I had that riff for like a decade.

- That piano riff.

- I think you had a lot of the chords.

- And then the chorus, "Sweet Time."

So your "Sweet Time."

And so, yeah, it's hard to explain, but just like little-- I think Stu's brain is like--it's like tie-dye.

It's like all over--it's every color.

It's a full spectrum all over the place.

And for better or worse, I think I'm sort of like sticks, potatoes.

I've got like these very basic-- - Potato sticks?

- Very like basic--it's a different way of thinking.

And somehow it comes together like if I'm good at the frame, he's good at the decorating.

And so like if I have the riff, he suddenly knows all the chords.

And if I've got the chorus, he's got the bridge.

And then we'll write the verse together.

It's a very--it's a really interesting thing, but when it works, it works really well.

- Yeah.

So speaking of food, let's talk cheeseburgers.

I've heard you all talk about that, about making songs like cheeseburgers.

What does that mean?

- That's a Charles idiom.

- So, well, you know, Stu comes from indie world.

He has a lot of cred, merge records, and love language.

And I don't have any of that.

I love catchy pop songs.

And so I think that I feel more comfortable sometimes being like, "Hey, here's this sort of corny, catchy, cheesy riff, and let's like rock on it."

Sometimes songs that you don't necessarily think are going to have substance have a lot more substance than you think.

And I think that maybe the great riffs are like sort of caricatures of themselves.

They're sort of like the noses are bigger, the ears are bigger.

And I think that what works about it is when I play something that kind of puts Stu in a mindset of this song reminds me of this or this time and place or this vibe, he comes to life as sort of an actor and performer.

- Yeah, no.

- Whether it's twangy or darker, he can really find the mood quickly.

And so I think that the cheeseburger for me, I love breaking down the math of songs, what makes that riff special and why, why did that get stuck in my head?

Why does that chorus linger?

So I like to really--the things that people obsess about, I like to obsess as well.

- So when you're coming to Stu with the cheeseburger, it's almost like kind of tapping into some sort of music library of Stu's in a way, like where you're like, "Oh, I think he could maybe tap into something that's this adjacent."

- Charles just has a real talent for writing hooks, and maybe some of them are understated, but they're like foundational hooks or something.

I mean, it's not like sweet child of mine, but it is too.

He's got some of those too.

It's like I think that's always been a way you've written or started is like kind of guitar or piano.

- Well, a hook tells you so much.

It tells you the key of the song, tells you the mood, tells you the tempo.

It inspires everything as the seed.

- John Fogerty wrote that way.

He'd always start with a riff.

I love his tunes too.

- But again, I think my whole life I've been the hook writer and the guy chasing the cheeseburger or however you want to call it, but I never really had the other answers, and Stu always has all the other answers on the other side of the riff and the other side of the chorus and things like that.

And so what's something that might take me a year to like keep fleshing out or thinking about or overthinking, he just all of a sudden has all the answers, and then we're fleshing it out together, and that's a lot of fun.

- He's also an English major who has a real disdain for overly wordy and pretentious writing, which is nice, but he really cares about language and words and the lyrics, but I like the whole--he's always trying to push it for us to write something more universal, which I have a lot of appreciation for.

- Yeah.

You've also spoken about the radio-ready sound.

Can you talk to us a little bit about that as far as that in your songwriting?

And an appreciation for the radio sort of in general.

It seems like you were inspired a lot by just radio songs throughout the '90s or even before that, and so can you kind of talk about that?

How does the radio inspire some of the songs that you make?

- Absolutely.

And I think we're inspired by--that does seem like a box.

I think we listen to a lot of stuff that's, I don't know, Powderfinger, Neil Young, things we love that wouldn't necessarily be radio, but we're inspired by all kinds of stuff.

But there was--I don't know why, but there was a moment during the pandemic where I personally found a lot of inspiration sort of nostalgic.

There was a point coming back from L.A. where I stayed with my parents for a bit because the pandemic hit right when things shut down, and I found an old case logic that was big.

You know, this is like the CD case in my childhood bedroom closet.

I had a CD player in my car at the time, so I was just going back through all these records, but that was, you know, the-- - What was in there?

Like, what were some of the records in there?

Do you remember?

- Melancholy and Infinite Sadness, which I would say probably isn't-- you wouldn't hear as being an influence on this record, and I think it did in some ways, but I don't know if I'd call that-- - They had some radio hits.

- Stu is a huge Smashing Pumpkins fan.

- Yeah, that and Siamese Dream.

- Some of the people in this room are for sure, too.

- Yeah, Billy's a little insufferable.

I wish him the best.

Don't try so hard.

He will love you.

But I love those records more than anything, Siamese Dream and Melancholy.

But, man, I could name more.

There's so many.

I don't know.

I'm trying to fit it into this radio thing, but those-- - Oh, it's okay.

I was kind of asking you a side question.

- Yeah.

We listened to a lot of local radio as well in Fancy Gap.

That was basically the soundtrack, other than the music we were making was-- oh, my God, I'm blanking on that.

- 98.1 WBRF.

But we didn't have really internet, so we weren't streaming a lot, so just the soundtrack was the radio.

And such a good station.

And just to answer your radio question, I think that we were at a time where it felt like are we ever going to play shows again?

Does music matter anymore?

The world was shut down.

And so I think that in some ways we were looking at the record as like a love letter to what was lost, and it wasn't about fitting into a scene or being cool to these people or that people.

It was just like we miss everyone.

And I think that's what Little Heart Racer is about.

It's like if we can define this new scene-- we don't have the answers right now, but we're ready for it when it comes.

And that's what I like about songwriting, those universal truths.

If an 8-year-old can relate and my grandmother can relate, to me that's a good song.

And it's funny, just like a full circle moment conversation.

So I grew up where you did in the triad, and a hometown hero of mine is Adam Lazera from Taking Back Sunday, who sings on this record.

And I was in high school when his career took off, and he went to high school closest to where I lived.

And I was kind of blown away by his career and art.

And I was always writing songs.

I always had my journal on me at the time.

And I was like 16, and I ran into him at a bar.

And it was late at night, and I said, "Hey, man, I've got my lyrics on me.

Is there any way you'd just come to my car and tell me what your thoughts are about this?"

And I remember he's so, so kind.

And he came and sat in my car with me, and he really thoughtfully read all my lyrics.

And he was like, "Man, these are okay."

He's like, "But they're too specific."

He's like, "No one can relate.

If you're sitting here saying, 'Hey, at 9.46 a.m. on this September day, I went here on this street,' who's going to relate to that?"

And so he said from his experience, he tries to write in a way that feels specific and personal but also broad at the same time.

And that's kind of the first thing--that's the first seed in my head of, "Wow, music can be--the goal of great songs, in my opinion, is to relate to as many people as possible."

And so that was kind of my first taste of, you know, what does it mean to be radio-ready or arena-ready is what you're referencing.

Man, what--first of all, I can't believe that he did that for you.

What an incredible story.

Yeah.

What was the place?

Do you remember?

Were you seeing a show of his?

No, it was just a Saturday night at Triangle Billiards in High Point, North Carolina.

Cool.

Wow.

That is really awesome.

And I'm sure--I mean, that's something that you always take with you, right, and always kind of remember.

And it makes, I think, us as audiences realize that these-- artists are people too that want to work with people and communicate and figure out how to make art just as good as it can be and help anyone that needs the help along the way.

Yeah.

And I think that's really cool.

And then Full Circle, he ended up singing on the album with us.

Right.

On Filthy Habits.

What was it like working with him, like Full Circle, like that?

Well, he was in a similar boat in 2020.

You know, he's like, "Do I have a career anymore?

Are we ever going to play shows again?"

And, you know, he'd been a road dog for 20 years.

And so he was going through a hard time just because kind of identity crisis of what's-- where's my value?

Everything that I have to give, I can no longer give.

And so he would come over and hang out and we'd kind of talk about life and what happened.

So we were down--it's funny, he's kind of woven throughout this whole record because when we went down to Alabama to mix, Sheffield, Alabama and Muscle Shoals, he was born there.

And so we got down to Alabama in the middle of a snowstorm.

It was snowing in Alabama?

Yeah, or ice storm.

And we got to the Airbnb that we were staying at, walk in, it's like 45 degrees in this house, there's no power.

And we'd just break out the acoustic guitars and Stu delivered the cheeseburger that day with the initial riff for Filthy Habits.

And I was like, "This is so good."

And I remember taking a video of it and right then and there, for some reason, I sent it to Adam.

And nothing really came of that.

And then like a year later, he ended up singing on it.

Wow.

So it was just kind of--I think we knew from the get-go it would be a cool thing to have him on.

Yeah, we work slow and steady, but it's not like we're constantly--we do a lot of other things because you don't necessarily make a lot of money doing music.

But I just want to clarify that because it does seem like a long gestation period, but there's a little bit of a don't rush it, just wait for the good art to come.

But also it's just the two of us.

I mean, there's horns all over the striker.

I mean, I think it takes more time than people think.

I was thinking about that for--a lot of people don't know our story, and we talk about this cabin, and then they probably hear the record, and they're like, "What?

This doesn't make sense," because it doesn't sound like a record made in a cabin.

But I feel like we've got to show our magic trick a little bit.

But it was a lot of the--like my voice you hear, Charles's guitar, these were the same way some people could think of making demos.

So we're in the cabin working up ideas.

We start to get something, make a structure, and we would have a little placeholder drummer using these recording programs like Logic, and we'd have--play some bass.

So we were building these tracks up to sound like a band, sort of thinking like, "Are these demos that we're going to go--if the world opens back up, redo with a band?"

We didn't totally know, but then we would just catch a vibe, like we were talking about, and it would be like, "Well, we don't need to redo that.

Well, how do we make this a finished thing?"

And then it's like, "The bass line's good.

The guitar's good.

The vocal's great.

Let's keep that.

Okay, well, we need to get drums."

And then we called Justin Holder, who lives in Muscle Shoals and is a session drummer.

And Charles has known him for years.

He played with Box Bomb, Ryan Gustafson's band before--well before Dead Tongues back in the day.

Amazing drummer.

I mean, there's so much to tell, but that opened up the Muscle Shoals half of the record where some overdubs were done, Craig Alvin mixing.

This is what's crazy about the record.

There were so many things that just kept kind of-- A new door opened.

We just felt pretty blessed, to be honest.

It just kept kind of falling in place for us.

And so I knew I wanted Justin to play drums on this record.

I've worked with him for 15 years.

Anytime I need drums, I call Justin Holder.

And he's the main drummer at Fame Studios now, so he's just-- Pocket.

He's pocket.

I mean, just the feel, too.

He's unreal.

And so BJ Burton, who Stu's worked with, who's amazing.

I mean, he just did the new Miley and Lizzo, and he's in a different atmosphere.

He recommended that we track--we said, "Hey, we need to record drums."

He said, "Well, Craig Alvin's the best drum engineer that I know."

And he lives and works at Muscle Shoals.

Yeah, and so that worked out because Justin lives down there as well.

And so, like, 9 o'clock one night, we're finally ready for drums, and I text Justin, "Hey, man, I've got this--I'm ready to book you.

We've got this album finished.

Do you happen to know Craig Alvin?"

And he says, "No, I do not, but I'm standing right beside him."

And so it was just this very funny thing.

And so-- A little bit of magic for you.

Right.

And so-- Taking some of the magic away, but it is a very small town.

So slightly more likely than being in, like, New York.

Yeah, but the fact that they've never spoken.

No, I know.

I know.

So he texts me.

He goes and introduces himself, says, "Hey, I've got these guys."

And he just won Grammy Album of the Year for KZ Musgraves.

So, I mean, this guy is killing it.

And we were like, "Man, I hope we can get him.

That would be awesome."

And Justin sent me his number back, like, 15 minutes later.

And so I texted him the link to our album at the time, what we considered the album.

And he didn't respond that night, but at like 7 o'clock the next morning, I got a text message from him, and it just said, "I get it."

And I know that sounds crazy, but we just needed that text message.

That meant a lot.

And sure.

Yeah.

And so that started the whole Alabama chapter of this record, which is a whole different-- And that's episode two.

So, yeah, I mean, by the time this record was done, we made four or five trips to Alabama.

Craig ended up tracking the drums, but also mixing the record.

Craig, we love you.

Sorry.

But we drove him crazy, kind of chasing the sound of what it should hit like.

Yeah, I called him the other day.

I was like, "I hadn't listened to it in a while, and I just had to call you, man.

It's so good."

He's like, "You sure?

You don't want a remix?

Filthy habits?

An eight time?"

I was like, "No."

He's like, "I don't believe you, but thank you."

But at the same time, he had just won the biggest award in music, and I feel like he was very confident in himself and things like that.

But I'd like to think we pushed him to not settle for the sound.

Or just because you think you're right right now doesn't mean you're right.

And just because we're a new band or you don't know who we are doesn't mean we're wrong.

And we learned a lot, too.

I mean, yeah.

We drove him crazy, though.

I mean, we drove him crazy.

But I think that's one of the things.

We were learning, too.

Sometimes, okay, so a song, a mix, you're, "All right, check.

We're done."

Then it gets properly mixed.

That might open up that it needs less, more, you know, sometimes more, or replace this.

So there's a little bit of this dance, the particular way we worked, that I think it had to go like that.

But yeah, there's no point to finger anything.

It's just, at the end of the day, you want to make something that matters.

And someone's going to want to play it over and over again.

And that you love, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We sometimes wonder if we're welcome back.

And then the other day, Richard, our homie, he sent us a video of Craig blasting "Strawberry Moon" in his new studio with his new speakers.

I'm like, "Okay, he doesn't hate us."

That's awesome.

He gets it.

Yeah, he's so talented, though.

He's really... And his history is insane.

Like, he...

There's some story he sold Kurt Cobain all of his pedals.

What?

I didn't know that.

Have you heard this story?

No.

He sold Kurt Cobain his pedal collection.

Let's fact check this.

Yeah, that's... Let's call Craig right now.

But this is a true story.

And yeah, he's just been around the minute and he's the real deal.

So you've put this record together.

It's where you want it to be.

It sort of resembles this sound that you're trying to tap into that has this arena level quality to it.

What's it like for you both bringing that into a live audience?

Like taking that sound that you've developed...

It was kind of what it was written for the whole time.

Yeah.

I mean, I love the record, but there's not really a "but," but it's like...

These songs were meant to be played live.

I think we were thinking that the whole time.

Like, they're written for a stage and for an audience.

So I'm...

I mean, I loved making the record.

There's times that it was hard.

It was trying and this, but I'm really personally loving this chapter of it all, getting it out there and playing shows.

That's been a lot of fun to play with and feel them bring some, I don't know, some muscle to the songs.

At first I was very, "Play it like this, play it like this, play it like this."

And then at some point it was like, "Let's just rip it."

And there's a little more of interpretation with the band that I really enjoy.

I don't know.

There's a great chemistry that I'm... And the cool part...

I think it's hard to get.

The cool part about assembling the band too was just as much as we needed this outlet for rocking out and things like that, they needed it too.

And so the crazy thing is I don't even recall even scheduling practices or anything like that.

Just this band just sort of showed up one day.

Well, Steve.

Steve Howell.

So Steve Howell is in the Backsliders, a very influential band.

And I worked with him many years ago at a guitar shop.

And I sent him the album and he's an amazing guitarist.

I knew I wanted to give him a shot.

And he assembled the whole band.

He said, "I've got some ideas."

And he's like, "How about we just practice next week?"

And so he got Robert Sledge on board, Ben Fultz V, an incredible bass player, Mark Simonson from the Old Ceremony.

I think I reached out to Mark, but Steve knew Mark.

But yeah, Mark's an old homie of mine.

He's the best vibes.

Yeah, he's spent a little bit of time with him, but he... Mark's favorite.

He can get more like guttural laughter out of Charles than I've seen.

I mean, everybody got some good jokes.

He probably couldn't tell a lot of them on the air, but they're just sweetheart.

And Nick Baglio on drums, who's just, it's like watching a golden retriever jump into a pond.

It's just like crazy how excited and happy he is to just play playing drums.

Yeah.

Nick's like a Prague drummer, basically.

If you follow his Instagram, a lot of really complicated time signatures.

And he's very popular on Instagram.

People love him.

But I mean, the craziest, like, almost like Danny Carey level, even more.

I don't know.

He's just a really...

But I was a little nervous at first.

I was like, he's obviously so good, but our music isn't like that.

But he's pocket.

I mean, he finds it and the songs groove and he doesn't, he probably plays like a 2% of his technical ability, but it's just perfect.

So he really helped the band gel so much.

He's also brought a lot of professionalism and he's a full-time musician.

That's what he does for a living and a drummer at that, which is in Raleigh, which is a really impressive feat.

And so he's just, he's very business minded as well.

And I'm real grateful for that aspect of Nick and the band.

What's it like for you two though, being outside of the cabin and Fancy Gap, not in Muscle Shoals?

We got to get back.

We are in two weeks.

Start working on the next one.

But to be, to just be out here playing.

To making, to just playing it for people now.

Like we're just sort of maybe... Again, it's great.

I mean, when I was writing the first song or when we came up with the first one, How to Dance, there was a line, when the world starts over, I want to be in left hand.

And that was me imagining Charles left handed and being like the guitar solo comes in and left hand.

And, you know, but I knew in that moment, like, I just can't wait till we're actually have that moment.

You know, I'm trying to say like the, when the world starts over, I just want to be in the band.

And I say left hand and it's sort of a cue to like the guitar solos coming in, his left hand.

And I always knew, like, I just can't wait for that, that moment to be a reality.

Yeah.

So, yeah, we're in that moment and it's killer.

We've been really, really lucky.

You know, we released this album, it's self-released.

You know, we've funded it, like our own label, Ghost Choir, which is not, you know, we're not, we don't have an office, we don't have staff, we don't have tons of records on the pipeline.

It's a dream for sure.

But we've, we've just put so much work into getting this out and we didn't know, I mean, we believed in the record, but we didn't know what the reception would be.

But I can't believe how blessed we've been with like you all.

Thank you.

Like getting on this.

We got to play Red Hat for a great cause, for benefit for Western North Carolina with Old Crow Medicine Show, Chatham County Line, BJ Barham.

Yeah, for me personally, I've been very inspired by the live music aspect of this just because the joy of sharing the album, but also Stu.

I mean, Stu's meant to perform.

And so throughout this whole process, I mean, he was getting depressed because we were, we were creating and creating.

He's like, man, I miss playing shows.

And so to see my best homie come back to life, you know, you ever, you ever have a plant that needs some water and you just pour some water on it and like 10 minutes later it looks like a plant.

And like 10 minutes later, it looks so much better.

Stu playing music, he's meant to do this as much as possible for people and to sing for people.

And so that's, that's been really great for me and inspiring for me.

And I believe it's inspiring for everyone around.

So that's, that's been the best part of it for me.

I want to talk a little bit about the set that we've got here for the show.

We were chatting with you all about what we could make with you as far as the set, you know, I think one of the things that came to y'all's mind was disco honky tonk dive bar.

How does your sound sort of fit into that space?

I think that a lot of the country slash like heartland sort of vibe I think comes from the mountains.

I think that it, there was always sort of this idea back to probably 2018 of, and even back like love language was wanting to do something a little more country leaning.

Cause I've always grown up with my dad, my uncle are big country music fans grew up around that, that music my whole life.

And Charles did as well.

But there's something in that, you know, bluegrass really came from, from that region.

Old time music.

And there's something where that, these little ghosts kind of crept into the melodies.

Like if you take a song like 40,000 miles and just played it on acoustic or a mandolin, I feel like melodically it's, it's very similar to, you know, it's like got a very kind of old time vibe and a lot of the songs.

And that I think just kind of crept into the music from, from writing out there.

I don't think that was really pre-planned.

So there's this, there's, yeah, there's this country element to the record.

And then I guess the disco, I don't know, big flashy it's, you know.

Disco is pretty rock and roll.

Yeah.

It's a vibe.

It's funny just to jump back on the country thing.

We've, we've been asked this question about like, when did y'all start talking about this record?

And I scrolled back on Facebook through my DMs with Stu and the first one I ever sent him was I said, man, I'm obsessed with this song.

And it was Brooks and Dunn Lost and Found.

And highly recommend you check out that song.

But it, I feel like that was, Stu's always kind of had a bit of a twang, I think, in his voice and, and country music when it's good, it's great.

Right.

And.

It's timeless.

Yeah, it's timeless and the best storytellers, great lyrics.

So even if it's not country, the tenets of country music, I'd like in every record I make just because I think that they take musicianship, lyrics, family, the things that matters in life, I just think they care about.

Definitely.

And then, yeah, with the bar honking, I don't know, I feel like our band, we talk about like arena and all this, but at the same time, I feel like our band could be like you stumble into some little dive bar and just like, who is this, like a bar band, you know?

Yeah.

In the best way, you know, and RBQ, I love them.

They're kind of the world's greatest bar band or something, but I don't know, it just seemed to fit.

I don't know, I guess we didn't give it a ton of thought, but we didn't, we didn't want to make y'all have to recreate a cabin on the side of a mountain.

That seemed like it would have been a lot of work.

Yeah, Jodi would have loved that.

Yeah, but now that we've seen her work, we know it's been possible.

You have the deer head, so that's a good start.

Also, it feels like, I feel like with a lot of live music that I see, you know, it's awesome to see the evolution of groups over time.

And you can always say, you know, "Oh man, I saw them.

I saw Fancy Gap in a dive bar once."

You know, and all of a sudden they're playing in an arena.

That'd be great.

Yeah, it's just one of those things.

I do that often.

I did that with the Black Keys once, you know, saw them here.

And I guess it's, yeah, years and years ago.

I was at that show.

Yeah, oh my God.

It was an amazing show.

It's one of those things, like, yeah, I saw them, you know, with 250 people or whatever.

We were both, before we knew each other, we were at Fleet Foxes at Local 506.

It was an Easter Sunday and they had hidden Easter eggs all around the room.

But I think there was like 20, it was like, it was very crazy.

Maybe 30 people.

Yeah, it's so awesome.

Arcade Fire played Local 506.

Did they really?

They played the cave?

The cave is where they played for Merge to, a show for Merge to sign.

But yeah, they played the cave.

A lot of people in Chapel Hill say they were there, but not everyone.

I wasn't there.

I love the cave.

Yeah, we got to play the cave.

Shout out to Eric who just played the cave not long ago.

Silvanesso, I saw Silvanesso at the cave.

Did you really?

Yeah.

Silvanesso.

I'm sure there's a, oh my gosh, I'm sure there's a ton of stuff like that.

So one of the things we like to ask people that come on the show is sort of how you're shaped by sound.

We think about, like with this show, one of our goals was to think about how music can create community, how it sort of affects us as people, how it shapes us as people, how it influences us, turns us to who we are.

How would you say that you're shaped by sound?

I think that's a really great question.

And it's my trajectory, my life path.

I mean, I could, friendships.

I mean, as I go back right now, I mean, my first few bands, those led to like some really deep, meaningful friendships with people.

My wife, my wife, Kate, I met, she played in the Love Language, like early days.

So, you know, right there.

Charles, obviously.

So I think it's like this people that are drawn to music in a way that, you know, everyone loves music to an extent, but you know, someone like myself that's made a life of it, it's, I don't even know how to answer this.

I mean, I could probably trace so many, yeah, friendships, relationships, and just lived in LA that was shaped by sound and wanted to pursue music.

So, I mean, just about every facet, I probably have a hunch from carrying amps for too long, shaped by sound that way, pretty much everything.

Yeah, that's okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that whether you're a songwriter or producer, if you get that taste in your mouth, whether it's like you're hunting or looking for gold or something, I think it can drive you a little crazy and in the pursuit.

I was thinking about this question and I've kind of felt this just draw my whole life to follow the path of music.

And I was thinking about the sort of origin of that.

And when I was probably, when I was really young, I lived in Columbia, South Carolina.

My parents both worked at the University of South Carolina and they were like 20 when they had kids.

And so they were going to shows and they really liked the local music scene and they'd made friends.

And my dad would help kind of book shows for local bands there.

And these guys would always come by the house.

I remember them being really cool and their music being good.

And then one day I remember seeing them on Jay Leno and it was Hootie and the Blowfish.

Wow.

And so all of a sudden these guys that I had just seen in my living room had, I believe one of the best, they had one of the best selling albums of all time.

And just seeing like how, how pure music can be.

Cause they weren't writing these songs for, it was, it was for just a small crowd, but then all of a sudden it was for the world.

And just seeing how you can create something that speaks to everyone, like a fortune cookie or something like that.

It's just, it's a, it's a powerful thing to be able to, to create and share and impact all at the same time and leave your mark.

We're all, we're all here for a limited amount of time, but in some way I think music can kind of live forever.

So.

And I don't know, you know, lyrically I think it helps you understand the human psyche.

A lot of, a lot of songs.

Like, I feel like everyone sort of remembers the first time they heard like a breakup song or a sad song that they felt it.

You know, I remember you start kind of feeling feelings and I don't know, middle school, maybe a little earlier or something, but you know, you're like, Oh, I've heard this Beatles song or whatever so many times, but now I get it.

I feel this.

And then, yeah, I feel like I've learned a lot about just the human psyche from, from music.

Yeah.

And just like that memory recall, right?

Like you hear something, I know exactly where I was when I heard it this way.

Or how the music pairs and how, you know, the minor, major to minor, whatever, like causes an emotion.

And you're like, okay, that's how I really feel is when that, that lyric is put with that, those chords of that music, that's nailed it.

Like how it feels inside helps you sort of understand more about yourself and people.

Yeah.

For this part of the podcast, I'd like to go through y'all's set list and we can kind of just go through, I've got the set list in front of me now.

Yeah.

So we'll start with How to Dance.

Yeah.

When we were making How to Dance, going back to what we were discussing earlier of the, the Case Logic and the radio songs, I remember I was really into Sheryl Crow's first few records, really big fan of her songwriting.

And I think that, yeah, the earliest sort of demo of it, I was just sort of, I was imagining her voice or, or something.

So there's, if you go back in here, you might, you might hear a little of her influence there, but yeah, that one just kind of came out of the sky and just the chords, I think it was all written in like a day.

And, but I think, yeah, there's a lot of pondering about, will the world open back up?

You know, if the door is ever open, I would even learn how to dance.

And that lyric to me was, I'm not the best dancer.

I don't, that's kind of about going to like the club, you know?

And I think I was yearning, like, I would love to go to like a full on dance club, like get down all night.

And that, that lyric was for myself.

Like if the door's ever open back up, me, I would even learn how to dance, you know?

But yeah, I think it's just about imagining, it was very much a pandemic song, but I still think that the, it doesn't sound too dated now.

Hopefully it's timeless.

Oh, I think so.

But also I love, I love the first lyrics, my dreams are always falling down.

Like, I think that that.

It's not my genes are always falling down.

Someone said that one.

But I think, I think that that's kind of.

It's about needing a belt, sorry.

I think that's where I found Stu, you know?

I mean, like he was kind of at that spot in his life where he felt like his dreams were falling down.

And I didn't like that because I mean, I love his whole catalog.

And so while it's an upbeat and happy song, it's also real as hell and, and it's a very inspiring song and it's very pure.

I think you can hear how, how pure his love for music is in that song.

It's a perfect intro to the, to the record, you know, ending the second line, it was getting too loud.

I was drowning it out.

And that goes back to me saying about my, Charles kind of coming in and being like, let's get your voice front and center, get all this riff raff out of the way and let the song shine.

So yeah, it kind of sets the tone.

Yeah.

Did we make a concept album?

Didn't realize it.

Maybe.

No.

What about a little heart racer?

Little heart racer.

That happened in the basement.

Actually, we were just jamming, you know, we like to jam with Stu on drums with the mic up to his face and I'll be on guitar.

And we just sort of were jamming one day and this sort of honky tonk thing came to life and Stu will kind of throw out melodies, you know, just, and I think the first line that came out, I felt like he said, in the heart of Virginia or something like that.

Or on a back road or something, but I don't know.

And that sort of shaped that song.

But yeah, that was just sort of a, I think that was kind of a love letter to Brooks and Dunn or something like that.

Just a, yeah.

And to Fancy Gap in that area, like, that was another one that was written really quickly.

So there wasn't a lot of revision or thinking about this lyric and that and just letting it be, which I love.

And yeah, it was the excitement of we were, okay, we got this new band and we're writing these kind of country tunes.

I don't know, like the new scene lyrics.

The only little change was I left LA and came back, but I liked the ring of New York better.

So we left that.

But it's kind of about leaving like the big city for, you know, more rural setting, like kind of tuning out and getting your thoughts quieter to where like the real stuff can come through.

So there's that line, there's a big moon shining and I'm just writing down everything I never got in the city.

And that's just sort of about like, I'm finally like, it's finally flowing.

Yeah, about tuning in.

Yeah.

And it was interesting because we were writing this, that was an early one.

And I think there's like been a real trend of people leaving the cities to, you hear about that, the New York hipsters are moving upstate New York and cabins.

I don't know.

Yeah, it's, I don't know.

There's a shift.

I'm into that.

Yeah.

I always loved, you know, we would, we would ride around.

Like I said, it's so beautiful up there.

We would just go cruise the dinner, our buddy, Chip Calloway's house who fed us so much.

Shout out Chip.

Yeah, shout out Chip for all the warm meals.

But we'd ride over there for dinner.

He'd be like, y'all need to chill out on this record and come have dinner.

And there's this beautiful ride over to his house.

And I always kind of think of that, that trip.

It is, yeah.

With, with this song, but also with the lyric, is your little heart racing going sunset chase.

And cause it's just, it's funny cause it's just two homies riding down the road, but it's like, this is beautiful, isn't it, man?

And it's funny, my, well I don't want to name names, but you know, there's sometimes you'd find some moonshine up in the mountains.

And, and I remember saying to Stu, we've got some lightning, some white lightning coming.

That's what they'd call it.

And so I always felt, we never really talked about this, but I always felt like the lyric with I'm in the well spring waiting on some lightning.

I think it's about, you know, a song coming to your head, but I feel like the word lightning kind of came from waiting on moonshine.

Yeah.

That's funny.

Maybe.

What about, I know we've talked about it a little bit already, but Strawberry Moon.

So that goes so far back.

I think 20, I mean, honestly, it's crazy.

This probably over 10 years.

I think that I first came up with the, was on a, a Juno six like synth that my buddy Hoppy lent me for a bit.

And I remember I first kind of came up with those chords.

It was like, it was like 2013 or something.

And just had sat on that forever.

Then around 2015 or 16, I'd made a demo.

That was synthy.

There's a very synth pop version of Strawberry Moon somewhere out there.

And the lyrics, everything was the same chords, but I think it like sounded too much like war on drugs or a synthy war on drugs or something.

And for some reason I was just kind of like, I was like, this is, I'm not feeling this.

And I just threw it away.

And then Charles was wanting to hear, when we were talking, when I went back to, he's like, let me send me some demos.

And I, I think I found that and then decided to just record it, me and an acoustic for him after, you know, we had talked and, and he, he loved it.

And it just took a whole new life when it was kind of turned into a more of a folky thing.

And Charles just really came in with the arrangement and the vibe that set.

So it was just, it was like the same song and the, the IP, the intellectual property, I guess.

But then the whole thing that made it so different, what it was, he really brought that, making it have more of this like Fleetwood Mac kind of groove sound.

Getting Sharon Van Etten on it was wild.

That was, we were big fans of hers.

And I mentioned that I knew her.

I met her at the very first Hopscotch in 2010.

And we wouldn't say we're like super, super close, but we were internet buddies.

And she would, you know, she moved to LA and she said, I'm out of my element, Donnie.

And I sent her a couple of numbers, people I knew looking out for her.

She's looking out for her.

She's looked out for me.

And Charles urged me, he's like, you know, Sharon, just send her the track.

It's so good.

It's like, she'll love it.

And I was like, I don't know.

She's big time and sent it to her.

And sure enough, she was just like, I love this.

I'd love to do it.

And things lined up.

She was traveling through and town and we just brought the quad eights, a little portable rack and tractor.

That's so cool.

We tracked her in a bedroom.

Really?

So it's funny how that works, but I mean, she, that was a very powerful moment.

You know, talk about shaped by sound.

I think it's more about moments that shape you by sound.

And I remember recording her and Stu and I were just sitting there and it seemed like her eyes were rolling back in her head.

Like she just sort of, she goes into this place and.

I think about that all the time when I'm singing.

I try to, okay, am I just singing this or am I like, you have to kind of be like an actor.

Yeah.

And that really inspired me watching her.

She was incredible.

There's no jokes.

Like let's, all right, we're making a meaningful song.

I'm going to tap in.

Tap in.

Yeah.

That's really cool.

What about Whispering Winds?

That one was, I had a demo for that called Neil Young vibe.

I found on my phone, a lot of artists do that, you know, your little note or your voice recorder on your phone.

And I was just going through stuff and I was like, Ooh, that's, there's something cool there.

And yeah, it slowly got worked up.

And there was something when I was working with the arrangement, the music where I was like, this is like a foggy day on the mountain, the cabin, because the fog is so thick.

You can like barely see through it.

You'll see like the little stumps of the trees coming through, but it's like a, I don't know, like Tim Burton movie or something.

I don't know how to describe it.

It's just really, really cool looking.

And I kept thinking like that should be the theme.

And then I think lyrically it, yeah, it's kind of like a foggy, sleepy morning sort of song.

And I don't know, I want it to be sort of about like a love or like someone you're going for that's sort of like evasive, like hard to pin down.

It's all mixed in there.

But yeah, that's just that mood is what that song is mostly about.

I think.

Yeah.

That's one of my favorite lyrics on the album.

Just a whisper, you just missed her.

That can be many, many things.

I mean, six words and it says so much.

And that's kind of, I think that's what I love about music.

Just the economy of words.

You know, you can, you can talk for an hour on a podcast where you can write six words that mean more than all of the things that you just said.

You know, it's, Stu wrote that.

So it's one of my favorite lyrics he's written.

What about Magnolias?

Magnolias, that was, that's a real special song.

One of my best friends sadly passed away from cancer in his early thirties.

The day we wrote that song.

And it was over a year battle.

It's like my best homie.

And, you know, watching him go through that was, was incredibly hard while we were making this album too.

And he was very encouraging and I'd send him every demo and videos and things like that.

And so when he died, Stu was just like, what can I do for you?

And I said, let's, let's honor him.

Let's write a song.

And so Magnolias is about losing someone you love.

And it's kind of, I don't know.

There's a, there's a lot about that.

A lot to unpack on that song.

It was kind of from his perspective.

He, he was like a very gentle guy.

And I think he felt like his cancer was sort of a burden for his wife and his family.

You know, he was, he, he felt like he was putting people out by having to deal with this.

So, couldn't stop once I started spilling everywhere like Magnolias in Bloom is sort of about cancer growing.

And then the bridge is sort of about the perspective of his wife, sort of after he's gone, feeling him in the air.

And that song means so much to me.

And we just sat there and just wrote these lyrics.

And it was, that was probably one of the most powerful days I've ever had with Stu writing that song.

It's also so interesting when I, and I know that about it, but, you know, mentioning wanting to write universally, because I think people could hear so many different things.

I don't think people would necessarily, you know, there's a way that's written that could sound like about a relationship or something, but it's, you know, interesting.

Yeah.

Silver Springs, the night that you died, I was listening to Fleetwood Mac and Silver Springs was on.

So it was very, it was kind of a very sad song, but also a triumphant song.

And yeah, one of my favorite moments on the record is when it says, I felt a little wind on the collar.

Yeah, the air was changing just the same as me and you, but I couldn't beg you to borrow another moment to lose.

It's just like, you know, just, and yeah, for me, like that's, that's when, when Stu and I are firing on all cylinders, when we can write something like that together, that's, I'm chasing those types of moments as long as, as long as we can.

Definitely.

And on a lighter note with that song, lighter note, or a liner note, the music was written and literally, it's the fastest I've ever been a part of a song being written musically.

Cause this was back when, like, or sometimes I'd play the drums, Charles on guitar.

And, you know, we're just jamming ideas.

And then I, I don't know, we were like, what next?

And I was like, write a stroke song.

I just like thought of something like stroke sounding song.

I was like, now it's like one, two, three, four.

And he was just like, I mean, the whole, everything but the bridge, if it was just slowed down, but we like jammed it, but I just kind of put them on the spot, like just come up with something.

And I mean, it was, it was written in like two seconds and then, you know, we slowed it down.

So we had that music for a little bit, but then obviously in like, and Don, his friends bassing, like really made it, you know, you have music and then you have a song and made it a song.

But that's another little interesting side to that song.

It was actually written like the bare bones musically so fast.

Awesome.

What about 40,000 miles?

Yeah.

40,000 miles was a riff that Cheeseburger Charles had.

He fought tooth and nail for, for some reason I was like, I don't know.

I was like, um, You don't like 40,000 miles?

No, I love it.

I love it now, but it was, it was just this riff and I was like, I don't know, I can't, I'm not coming up with anything to it.

And he was just like, there's something there.

I'll come back to it.

So six months later, I revisit.

The important part of a good riff is leaving space for the vocals.

And so I think that that riff is kind of stony and it kind of like leaves room for him to perform.

And I think you really hear that on that song.

And just as far as what it's about, I think, I feel like that song kind of represents just like how much effort we put into the album and the sacrifices and the triumph.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's the one.

Yeah.

And I mean, there was so much back and forth.

I mean, there's that song feels like an album, but the initial opening riff, you know, that's Charles, that's what the initial idea he had.

He was like, there's something in this riff.

So that was it.

So it could go so many directions.

And he was always just fighting for it.

When I said Tooth and Nail, I meant it as a compliment.

He, because I would, you know, I don't know, I didn't hear the potential he heard in it.

And so, and then, I mean, there's been a lot of versions of this song that sound nothing like it.

But eventually, this one was just this total back and forth arguing.

Let me switch this chord, Charles, let's do this thing.

It was like this total blend of the two of us, lyrically, everything that, but that one was, that was definitely the most work, but then that can pay off.

It's fun.

Funny.

Some songs were written in two seconds and some are, you know, a day and some, that one definitely took a while, but yeah, I think when we play them all live, that's the one that I get most excited about.

Yeah.

I think we've, we've talked a little bit about Starlight Motel and Filthy Habits.

Since we're a little short on time, can we maybe wrap with Sweet Time?

Yeah, Sweet Time is actually the first song we ever wrote together.

So I think that was kind of the beginning of Fancy Gap.

It was.

So we wrote that song together.

And then we were like, what is this?

It was kind of like this Kings of Leon sort of rocker.

And we hadn't really defined the sound yet.

So it really, it didn't make the album for 90% of the album making process.

And then at the end we were like, oh, this fits perfectly.

And yeah, I love that song.

That's, that's probably my favorite song we've written together.

Yeah.

You hit the quad eights.

I think we're extra hot or compressed or something that day.

The, the, who's recording, we should have saved that setting.

Cause it somehow it makes my voice sound, I sound like a different person, but there's not like some weird post production on my vocal or anything.

There's just, there was just captured like really big.

But I love it.

Yeah.

But I think if you, maybe not the average listener, but if you listen through like the vocal tonality, that's like this very, "Hello story."

You know, but it's like, it's just huge sounding, but I love it.

Yeah.

With our remaining seconds left, I would like to just open it up to you two and just ask, is there anything else that you'd like to say that we haven't had a chance to say?

I'm just really excited about this whole series, Shaped by Sound.

And we're just so glad, honestly, just so glad to be a part of it.

I feel like there's so much potential for you all to showcase the talent here in North Carolina.

And I, my personal hope is that it's really successful and people love it.

And people look at it as a way to find new music.

And there can be some amazing band that no one knows about that can, you know, get this kind of exposure.

I would hope, you know, where people just kind of trust you all as a source of like...

I hope so.

Yeah.

I think it's just a really, really cool idea and that you put all this effort into making these bands look, you know, big time, you know.

Well, thank you so much for saying that.

It is truly our pleasure to have you all hang out with us and get to do this with us.

And we have so much fun doing it.

It's really, really great.

So thank you.

Thank you all for coming in and doing this.

It is truly an honor.

It's an incredible team here.

So just, yeah, that's what I have to say.

Thank you for doing what you're doing.

Thank you.

Thanks for joining us on the Shaped by Sound podcast.

If you'd like to hear some of the songs we discussed today, you can find them on our website, pbsnc.org/shapedbysound or find us on the PBS North Carolina YouTube page.

Thanks for listening.

Thank you.