- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, the holidays can bring joy, but they can also stir up the quiet grief we don't always talk about.

Jazz icon Nnenna Freelon joins us to share how her new book, Beneath the Skin of Sorrow, turns loss into art and grief into a deeper kind of love.

It's a conversation about healing, creativity, and finding our way through the season, one note at a time.

Coming up next, stay with us.

- Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBSNC.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

Today, we're sitting with a North Carolina treasure, a six-time Grammy-nominated vocalist, storyteller, and now author.

Nnenna Freelon has released her new book, "Beneath the Skin of Sorrow," a companion to her spring 2025 album, "Beneath the Skin."

It's a powerful blend of essays, poems, lyrics, meditations, and truths, all shaped by the journey of grief, love, and the deep wisdom that jazz carries.

Before we bring her on, I do want to set the mood by listening to the musical inspiration to her newly released book, the title track, "Beneath the Skin," as performed on PBS North Carolina's "Shaped by Sound."

(gentle music) ♪ ♪ Love doesn't recognize the lost and found ♪ ♪ Or the gifts that can be measured by the pound ♪ ♪ Or drifting clouds that come and go ♪ ♪ Feelings that we long to show ♪ ♪ Love is simply worn beneath the skin ♪ ♪ The forest testifies in shades of green ♪ ♪ A mossy embrace softly by a stream ♪ ♪ The willow tree, the sycamore ♪ ♪ Are silent, yet they underscore ♪ ♪ A love that's growing deep beneath the skin ♪ (gentle music) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Love winds 'round a trellis in your mind ♪ ♪ Will allow if you are so inclined ♪ ♪ To fill you up be your supply ♪ ♪ A breath of praise, a lullaby ♪ ♪ On an extraordinary day ♪ ♪ When beauty calls, don't look away ♪ ♪ Love waits there for you ♪ ♪ Beneath the skin ♪ ♪ - So beautiful.

Welcome Nnenna Freelon, seven time Grammy award when I said six and that was my mistake.

That was so beautiful.

When I've listened to that, I feel so many moments of high joys and some low moments of sadness and in between it's just comforting.

What did you mean for listeners to hear from that piece?

- Well, I wanted it to be soothing, you know, and just a relaxing kind of like on the beach with your pina colada.

- I feel it, I feel it.

- Are you getting pina colada vibes?

- Yeah, now that you say it, yes.

- You okay, good.

- I can see myself with the pina colada, sand in between my toes.

- And beneath the skin, oh, what's underneath all of this hustle bustle chaos that we live in?

What brings us back home?

- I wanted it to be an exhale song.

- I love it, definitely an exhale song.

I want to, the first line that you say in the song, "Love doesn't recognize the lost and found "or the gifts that can be measured by the pound."

Then you go on to say, "Love is simply warm beneath the skin."

Can I interpret that?

- Yes.

- Love is everywhere, wherever we are, whatever we're feeling, there is love in those moments, as long as we look for them.

- That's it, that's it.

And we think of love as being this thing out there that we need to reach for.

But it's right here.

- It's always right there.

- It's right here in nature, in the eyes of a baby, in the sound of a bird, all, in the kind gesture, the smile that you didn't ask for, but that's freely given.

And there's a line also that says, "When beauty calls, don't look away."

Sometimes beauty is like knocking on the door and we just don't see it.

So when it calls you, it's a rose, it's a beautiful flower, it's a sunflower, it's a beautiful sunrise.

Lean in.

- And I think that's why I live by the motto of always giving joy and love to anyone that I need, because you never know who needs it in that moment.

- So true.

- Your first chapter, and I do want to, I have my own book, my own signed copy of the book, so I'm excited to read it fully, but your first chapter is "Round Midnight."

And so that song is an original, from an original North Carolina artist, so I wanna tie in the North Carolina link here, Rocky Mount Thelonious Monk.

It takes us along a melodic journey.

How did you use the melody and those lyrics to inspire this work in that first chapter?

- Well, I write or I wrote who I am.

So "Beneath the Skin of Sorrow" is born from the same creative breath as the record.

It's the same impulse.

And I organized the book, not in chapters, but in containers.

"Round Midnight" is the first one.

And for me, that's the breaking open, the early part of grief.

You've just lost someone beloved.

You're bewildered.

You're wondering if you can make it through the next day.

It's that dark period.

- At that time.

- All of those things.

And then the second container is "Stolen Moments."

When you realize that your every day is different now.

The third one is another jazz composition, "A Love Supreme," John Coltrane.

Another North Carolina connection, where you realize that there's help, there's support for you, internal from nature, from your faith tradition.

And then the fourth container is "Time Traveler," where you're able to move through your memories, perhaps with a little more ease.

It's not the five stages of grief.

It's just four moments for me, four jazz moments that allowed me to organize my grief in a certain way.

- And your grief is the loss of your husband, Phil Freelon.

But maybe someone hasn't lost someone, but they are still grieving.

How does your book help anyone in any element of grief navigate that?

- Loss carries with it grief.

Change carries with it grief.

And so no one need have died, need to have died.

That's not what we're talking about here.

It's any change that's a radical change that you must deal with.

Divorce can bring on those feelings.

Loss of autonomy, loss of self, changes in your health.

- Becoming an empty nester.

- Becoming an empty nester can do it.

And so we live in a grief-averse culture.

We don't even wanna recognize it as grief.

And as a result, we miss an opportunity to really look at what's happening on the inside.

And it's not all sadness.

And morose, it's not all heaviness.

Sometimes your grief opens you up to grief's sister.

And her name is Joy.

- I love it.

It reminds me of "Inside Out" when we looked at all the different emotions.

And honestly, we need all of the emotions.

So how do you do that inner looking inside and that inner reflection and finding out what is it that you need in that moment?

- I think it's different for everyone.

What I found is what I learned on the bandstand, what I learned through years of performance and studying and learning a craft is what has helped me navigate this grief for me.

That still small voice when I got quiet, that still small voice said, "Girl, you need to change the key."

You need to move in the cadence of these feelings.

I think the short answer is feel what you feel and don't demonize or criticize yourself for feeling 'cause some people are carrying a load they've been carrying for years.

It's not new grief.

- Yeah, a lot of it is-- - But she's ever patient, that grief.

She will wait until you are ready.

- And I think it's okay to be vulnerable in our grief.

I'll speak for myself.

I don't know how to always be vulnerable in my grief.

And that results in outbursts of emotions or overwhelming emotions.

Again, I haven't thankfully lost anyone close to me since my grandma.

So I'm fortunate for that, but I've experienced grief in many other ways and I bottle it up.

- I think we're taught to not show it.

The messages we get are sometimes it's not okay.

And so where do we put it?

What pocket is big enough to put all that?

And we're not even talking about generational grief, national grief, international grief.

I mean, we have grief about things that haven't even happened to us, but we're watching it play out.

Where do we put it?

Where do we put it?

So acknowledging that we are in a grief space is probably first step.

And then giving us ourselves some grace to say, you know what?

I'm going through some stuff right now.

- And it's okay.

- Let me just breathe.

Let me just breathe.

Let me say no to a few things 'cause baby I'm going through some stuff.

So I'm gonna need a moment.

- Phil transitioned in 2019.

And we are now in 2025.

And I'd love for you to share what that journey of healing, of acceptance look like for you.

And what steps did you take to get to where you are today?

And where are you today?

- Where am I today?

Phil was my best friend.

He was my advisor.

He was my lover.

He was my friend.

He was all the things.

And in 2019, he left this earthly plane.

But how about he didn't leave all the planes of existence?

I didn't know it at the time that they go, but they don't go far.

It's really weird, I must say, to get used to having a spiritual relationship with someone that you had a physical relationship with.

But I am having a spiritual relationship with this man because I talked to him.

I ask him questions and he answers me back.

He loved me so deeply.

I thought you loved, I said, when I married him in 1979, I said, something like, "Till death do you part."

And I didn't know what I was talking about.

- You didn't know what that is.

- You know, richer or worse, richer or poorer.

I didn't really know, but I said, yes.

And how about I'm loving him through death?

Through death.

That is not gonna be the case for everyone.

It depends on what relationship you had in life.

But in my case, I talk to a brother all the time.

- And did you use that to help you through this journey of grief?

- Because he accompanied me so robustly, it was a help, but it was also super weird.

I have to say, I can't say it was.

And in some cases, when you are navigating something brand new, like how do I change the tire on the car?

- The things that he used to do.

- The real things that he used to do.

Carrying the trash can out on Wednesdays became a thing that I now have to do.

That had grief accompanied with it.

- And you know, for some people, that's triggering and freezes them in the moments of grief.

What would you say to someone who is frozen in their moment of grief?

- When I had to roll that trash can up my steep driveway, I was like, look at you.

I'm out here in the cold, pushing the trash can up the hill, all by my own self.

Really, that what we doing?

You know, humor helped me.

Anger helped me.

Being okay with, man, this is messed up right here.

I am alone in a way I never expected to.

I see an older couple.

They're holding hands, they're obviously in love, and I'm like, I wanted that.

You know, I wanted that.

And at the same time, it took me literally years to realize that what I had was so amazing.

If I had to rewrite my story, I don't think I would have rewritten it.

- That's beautiful.

When we look at the book, we listen to the album, how do they complement one another?

Do we listen to it while we're reading?

How do you want us to experience the two?

- Well, for one thing, I'm working on an audio book because people have said to me, "Girl, you know you have to sing those songs "that are in the book."

The book is poems, it's short story, it's recipes, it's meditations.

So it is a collection of many different kinds of writing and reflection.

So I imagine, that it's a book that you could flip to any page, see if it resonates with you.

And if it doesn't, you can keep it moving.

You do not have to read it cover to cover.

Although I have friends who are like, "Oh no, girl.

"I'm sitting down with a couple of-- - Experiencing this page by page.

- "I am going page by page, and that's really okay too."

But the album and the book came through the same creative breath.

They came through in the hailstorm of COVID when we were all quieter than perhaps we wanted to be because we were supposed to be sheltering in place.

And if it had not been for that kind of quality of time, there would be no book, there would be no record.

So I hope the book reads as a musical kind of feel.

I feel like it has a cadence and it has a flow.

- Just like you, I think.

Just like you.

Tell me more about these recipes though.

- Well, I don't wanna give away everything, but there's one little piece called Love Cobbler.

He loved my peach cobbler because that's where I blew a brother's mind.

I blew his mind with my peach cobbler.

- That's what secured the bag, huh?

- He's in January talking about, "Could you make a peach cobbler?"

I was like, "No, brother.

"It has to be July.

"Peaches don't become ripe in North Carolina until July.

"So you just gonna have to be patient."

Canned peaches don't work, bottled peaches don't work, frozen peaches don't work, and my peach cobbler, so you just gonna have to wait.

- Love it.

I love it.

So I'll have to try that.

I'll have to try that for sure.

There's a piece in the book where you write about listening beneath the noise.

What does that mean?

- I think we have interior chatter.

Then there's exterior chatter, which can tend to distract us from that, what Grandma call it, still, small voice.

The voice of truth.

The voice of your truth.

We can't hear it if we don't breathe in this moment and just listen.

- How do we listen when the noise can be so loud?

- You have to breathe.

For me, breathing, that's an innate thing.

You don't have to think about breathing, but when you turn your attention to the breath, it can center you.

It can bring you back to home base.

Even when things are going crazy around you.

I used to tell my kids, let's take a breath.

Let's take a moment to re-center, to reconnect with what is true, 'cause a lot of this is really not truth.

It's just distraction.

And so, coming back to you, you almost have to pull it back in from the things that would distract.

The tablets, the phone, all the things that seem to be important.

- And we're here at the holiday season, and you do have some folks who have lost people.

You have people who have lost jobs.

You have people who have lost healthcare.

You have people who, frankly, have no hope for this country.

There's a lot of grief, I think.

How do we work through that, and through the noise of everything that is so around us right now, and enjoy the season, or enjoy ourselves, and enjoy those who are still here with us?

- That is such an awesome question, Kenia, and it's gonna vary for every person.

I'll tell you what I did.

I asked the holidays, what do I want from you?

Is it shopping, holly jolly, running all around?

Is it some good meals?

Is it family?

Is it being on the beach?

Is it, you know, I had to ask the holidays.

Not what, see, a lot of times we think, we, tradition, we have always done thus and so at Grandma House.

So now Grandma's passed.

- Well, now what do we do?

- Now what do we do?

Do we try to replicate something that has happened in the past, or do we create a new tradition that honors Grandma, and also honors the fact that we miss her, and she died without giving us that recipe for the biscuits, 'cause you know they do that.

They'll say, oh, just a little pinch of, just a little, some of this.

You know, my advice is get those recipes now, because if you wait, you won't know how to make that, whatever that is.

- Yeah.

We have about four minutes left, and I would love for you to read a passage, someone that needs a little comfort right now.

So one that you'd like to read for us.

- I think so.

I'll tell you that, the natural world did somersaults to try to get my attention when I was grieving.

I noticed things that I never noticed before in my life, and this poem is just a little reflection on something that I experienced.

It's called "Dragonfly."

Dragonfly landed at my breakfast next to the spoon, her wings transparent, iridescent, resting.

Was she alive, I wondered?

Had she gotten trapped indoors by an artificial trade wind, swept in on the pull of the door?

What was she doing here, so far from the verdant world outside the window?

What of her mate and her children?

Her solemn eyes, given to green with flecks of gold, regarded me without interest.

I thought for sure she was dead.

I moved in for a post-mortem closeup.

She shuddered, allowing one click, and adjusted her banded blue and green tail.

Definitely not dead.

She turned her triangular face toward me and fluffed her wings for flight, but not before she winked one impossibly large eye.

My life, she said, is about seven of your months.

I intend to live them all.

And you?

She flew off to other business and left me to my oatmeal and wonder.

- That's beautiful.

- Thank you.

- That is so beautiful.

If folks want to purchase, how do they do that?

- This book is available, I'm told.

Everywhere books are sold.

It's Duke University Press, so on their website they have a way to order it, but it's available.

It's a real book.

Nobody is more surprised than I am.

- That's so funny.

- It's real.

- And we've got the percentage code that just came up on the screen for those that would like to.

I think it's 30% off.

- It's 30% off with that code.

- That's beautiful.

What are some lasting words you want to leave with our viewers?

- Improvise with your grief.

There's no book, there's no roadmap that's gonna tell you how to do it, but if you feel something, feel it.

If you're with someone who is grieving and you're like, what do I say?

Just sit.

Sit with them.

You don't have to fix it.

It's not a disease that needs to be managed.

It's an act of love.

And Phil deserves every tear I ever cried.

- Nnenna Freelon, thank you so much.

- Thank you, Kenia.

- I appreciate you.

- Thank you.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ - Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBSNC.